Big Picture Skiing Podcast
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The Conversation That Changed How I Understand Skis: Jurij Franko on the Birth of Modern Ski Design

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ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This is a remastered release (2018) of one of the most eye-opening conversations I’ve ever had about skiing.

Before I had proper mics or a real podcast setup, I sat down with Jurij Franko - the physicist, former racer, and engineer behind the original shaped-ski revolution at Elan. The audio is now cleaned up, and I’m thrilled to bring this episode back because it genuinely changed how I understand skis.


Jurij’s story starts in the late 80s, when he became the first person to apply mathematics to ski design. His work validated the idea of sidecut and helped spark the carving era we now take for granted. In this episode, he explains the thinking and experiments that shifted skiing from tradition to science — and the breakthroughs that came from asking the questions no one else was asking.


We dive into ski behaviour in a way few people can articulate:

• why a ski carves vs. skids

• how torsional stiffness and center of mass influence grip

• the real physics behind vibration and “feel”

• and why so many long-standing beliefs in skiing were never grounded in science.


What I appreciate most is how Jurij connects design to human movement. He explains how great skiers adapt their body position, predict what the ski will do, and make thousands of small decisions based on feel and repetition. His way of cutting through jargon and simplifying the essentials is refreshing - especially for instructors.


We also challenge a lot of myths: flex, vibration, “performance characteristics,” and the tendency to overteach. Jurij’s view is that skiing improves when people are given the space to explore, develop awareness, and feel how the ski interacts with the snow.


This conversation blends physics, history, technique, and genuine passion. It’s a rare look inside the mind of someone who shaped the modern ski - and for me, it’s still one of the episodes that permanently shifted how I think about skiing. Enjoy.


Improve your skiing with me as your coach. I own an online learning platform that will teach you to become a better skier It’s Called Big Picture Skiing and is my way of being able to share everything I have learnt about ski technique, equipment and becoming a better skier. There are over 250 videos sorted into categories for simple learning. If you’ve enjoyed my YouTube and podcast then I think you would get even more out of the BPS learning platform

Podcast listeners can take 25% off any membership with code: PODCAST

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IN THIS EPISODE

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TRANSCRIPT 🔗

WEBVTT
00:00.031 --> 00:05.080
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well, thanks for joining me today, Yuri, on the global skiing podcast.
00:06.282 --> 00:15.458
[SPEAKER_00]: I must say I noticed some posts from you on the Facebook forum, Elite skiing, probably a few years back.
00:15.438 --> 00:30.760
[SPEAKER_00]: Just noting that the kind of comments you made intrigued me and made me think this guy knows Something about skiing and more than the average person knows about skiing and Long behold a little bit more research.
00:31.141 --> 00:43.639
[SPEAKER_00]: I find out that you were actually around I guess if it tell me if this is correct in the the early developmental stages of shape skis is that right?
00:43.619 --> 00:50.146
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, so the story is a bit more complicated, but okay, let me put it this way.
00:50.167 --> 00:56.954
[SPEAKER_05]: I was original out of mathematics to prove the chips keys are okay.
00:57.575 --> 01:10.690
[SPEAKER_00]: That's really So it was almost it was so you were it was kind of your hypothesis to prove that Yeah, yeah, so I have explained that you were also in this
01:11.142 --> 01:30.105
[SPEAKER_05]: web page, set my size, setting up, so it was a long time ago when I started in skip business as a professional before that I was just skiing, as a racer, or afterwards as a skipper troll and that kind of stuff.
01:30.125 --> 01:35.872
[SPEAKER_05]: But in 80s, like 80s, I got a job in Milan.
01:36.393 --> 01:39.917
[SPEAKER_05]: I always wanted to work
01:40.066 --> 01:43.959
[SPEAKER_05]: on airplanes because flying is my main hobby.
01:44.882 --> 01:45.203
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
01:45.986 --> 01:51.544
[SPEAKER_05]: I couldn't get a job there and use the apartment of alarm so I got a job in skid department.
01:52.081 --> 01:55.604
[SPEAKER_05]: So it was one step closer to my goal.
01:55.925 --> 01:56.205
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
01:56.425 --> 01:56.705
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
01:57.626 --> 02:08.096
[SPEAKER_00]: So I just thought, I'd start out with that introduction because I wanted to hook people into why I think they should probably listen to what you've got to say today.
02:08.176 --> 02:21.548
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you rewind back and maybe set the scene with a little bit about your, I guess you're upbringing or your skiing background, you said you used to ski race, so maybe if you want to just tell us a
02:21.528 --> 02:22.349
[SPEAKER_00]: about that.
02:22.590 --> 02:35.309
[SPEAKER_00]: So which possibly, I guess, fueled a little bit of interest and I guess understanding of how skiing works before you kind of, I guess, applied the physics and engineering side.
02:37.072 --> 02:38.835
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay, I was skiing as a kid.
02:38.915 --> 02:40.257
[SPEAKER_05]: Do you love what's 15?
02:40.497 --> 02:48.109
[SPEAKER_05]: Nothing special in racing because I was saying competition with guys like Boris Sterell who was my
02:49.135 --> 02:58.229
[SPEAKER_05]: classmate, and he was actually the first winner of World Championship medal for Slovenia or Yugoslavia at that time.
02:59.310 --> 03:02.315
[SPEAKER_05]: So I was far behind that time.
03:02.475 --> 03:03.537
[SPEAKER_00]: He had some competition.
03:03.577 --> 03:14.974
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, for example, Boyan Kajay was also, I say, competing at the September time and your kids
03:15.713 --> 03:28.407
[SPEAKER_05]: I knew that there are guys who can't skip much better than I did, but of course racing is one thing and the other thing is also understanding what is going on.
03:28.787 --> 03:31.250
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
03:31.590 --> 03:35.114
[SPEAKER_05]: And I didn't pay attention at that time about skiing.
03:35.134 --> 03:43.223
[SPEAKER_05]: As all kids, I just took it for granted, it was the coach said that was true and that's it.
03:43.962 --> 03:56.859
[SPEAKER_05]: And later on, studies physics, I was always involved in science or studying physics, not very good at it.
03:57.120 --> 04:12.180
[SPEAKER_05]: I must admit I had problems with mathematics, but I finished my studies and then I went into business after a few years I ended up in Elana's head of
04:12.734 --> 04:13.738
[SPEAKER_05]: laboratory.
04:14.119 --> 04:22.069
[SPEAKER_05]: So that means I was in charge for measuring all skis, all the equipment they were producing in Milan.
04:23.129 --> 04:29.396
[SPEAKER_00]: and back and can I ask because I guess I came to skiing a bit probably later, definitely later than you.
04:29.977 --> 04:36.884
[SPEAKER_00]: So back then was a lion possibly was it one of the major ski manufacturing?
04:37.225 --> 04:39.547
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't know if it's still is one of the major ones.
04:40.228 --> 04:50.740
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you feel us in on a little bit about where a lion was in terms of I guess it's competitiveness or like
04:51.428 --> 04:54.212
[SPEAKER_05]: In late eight, it is a long-hand stand market.
04:54.932 --> 04:57.836
[SPEAKER_05]: So, right, you push it everything.
04:58.177 --> 05:00.259
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, okay.
05:00.279 --> 05:08.069
[SPEAKER_05]: So, we were, let's say, quite high in this industry.
05:08.530 --> 05:12.675
[SPEAKER_05]: On one side, on the other side, of course, business is something else.
05:12.695 --> 05:15.018
[SPEAKER_05]: It's not all about racing.
05:15.699 --> 05:17.341
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
05:17.361 --> 05:19.123
[SPEAKER_05]: So, Alan, as a company,
05:19.441 --> 05:29.057
[SPEAKER_05]: was not very successful as a company's organization, and they started my other business thoughts later on in my career.
05:30.058 --> 05:45.263
[SPEAKER_05]: So at that time, let's say we were working together with Andrea Rovich, Andrea Rovich was, he's now in, I believe he's 85, now I still have contact with him.
05:45.867 --> 05:49.411
[SPEAKER_05]: He was outer or false keys for Stanmark.
05:49.972 --> 05:52.154
[SPEAKER_05]: Well, yeah, okay.
05:52.515 --> 06:04.488
[SPEAKER_05]: And he's, let's say, he's supported our youngsters in developing new ideas.
06:05.289 --> 06:07.612
[SPEAKER_05]: He was still very open minded.
06:09.213 --> 06:14.119
[SPEAKER_05]: And he had a certain reputation because of his achievements.
06:14.420 --> 06:15.267
[SPEAKER_05]: quite a support.
06:15.831 --> 06:18.068
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay, time's up, till we could.
06:18.335 --> 06:21.099
[SPEAKER_05]: be involved in new ideas and crazy things.
06:21.901 --> 06:23.583
[SPEAKER_00]: So, how did this start?
06:23.663 --> 06:27.089
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, was it someone like Stanmark?
06:27.129 --> 06:32.738
[SPEAKER_00]: Was it you who suggested you thought Skiz could be made differently?
06:32.938 --> 06:39.288
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, is it worth maybe starting out with how a ski actually works?
06:40.329 --> 06:45.237
[SPEAKER_00]: What would you say would be better to
06:45.217 --> 06:49.022
[SPEAKER_00]: before the evolution of, I guess, carved scales coming along.
06:50.084 --> 07:08.929
[SPEAKER_05]: The key point was when I came as a physicist, in the alarm, I started to ask him questions what's the theory behind it and what is going on and so on and there is the key figure in the alarm at that time, he seemed to say, I don't have a clue.
07:10.377 --> 07:12.319
[SPEAKER_05]: So that's where it all started.
07:13.239 --> 07:13.400
[SPEAKER_05]: Correct.
07:13.420 --> 07:19.785
[SPEAKER_05]: I read all the literature of everything about skiing and nothing really made sense.
07:21.226 --> 07:27.651
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, somewhere in the pet, I found it contradicts to Newton laws or some common sense.
07:28.092 --> 07:28.832
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
07:28.853 --> 07:29.133
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
07:30.154 --> 07:33.937
[SPEAKER_05]: So I said, this is something wrong.
07:34.437 --> 07:40.182
[SPEAKER_05]: And later on, I discovered it's a simple rule everywhere in every industry.
07:41.022 --> 07:48.674
[SPEAKER_05]: if the army, or military, was involved in history in that industry, then everything is known.
07:48.774 --> 07:50.216
[SPEAKER_05]: So the theory behind this time.
07:50.236 --> 07:51.137
[SPEAKER_00]: I got it.
07:51.298 --> 07:55.965
[SPEAKER_05]: If it was not involved, they don't have a clue.
07:56.626 --> 07:56.846
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
07:57.066 --> 07:58.208
[SPEAKER_05]: Building an experience.
07:58.529 --> 07:59.410
[SPEAKER_05]: I got it.
07:59.430 --> 08:04.077
[SPEAKER_05]: So, and that's the situation with skin industry at that time.
08:04.580 --> 08:11.846
[SPEAKER_05]: And the question was, why, how can we make a ski which will not skid?
08:12.447 --> 08:18.672
[SPEAKER_05]: So, skiding is breaking, slowing the skid down and so on.
08:19.513 --> 08:33.085
[SPEAKER_05]: And so we made, so at that time, they made different experiments, for example, skis with double edges.
08:33.773 --> 08:36.736
[SPEAKER_05]: one still edge and another one on top of that.
08:36.996 --> 08:39.058
[SPEAKER_05]: Wow, he had double grip.
08:39.078 --> 08:42.961
[SPEAKER_05]: Wow, of course, this was not working.
08:45.723 --> 08:57.253
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay, and then I have three kids at that time, my boy, my middle kid, was two years old.
08:58.134 --> 08:59.195
[SPEAKER_05]: We were on holidays.
09:00.116 --> 09:01.037
[SPEAKER_05]: He was not sleeping.
09:01.757 --> 09:02.498
[SPEAKER_05]: He was crying.
09:02.900 --> 09:19.821
[SPEAKER_05]: In the night, I don't know why, but I was half asleep, and then I got an idea, the problem, the idea is what is skidding, in fact, or another way around what is not skidding.
09:21.002 --> 09:31.455
[SPEAKER_05]: So, it's a little bit complicated, but
09:31.655 --> 09:35.902
[SPEAKER_05]: point on the ski edge goes through the same point on the ski slope.
09:36.243 --> 09:36.423
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep.
09:37.465 --> 09:38.907
[SPEAKER_05]: That's pure definition.
09:39.969 --> 09:53.632
[SPEAKER_05]: So if you make a radius of 10 meters, so every point on the skimmers lie on that radius, and that's the result is then geometry, put some matrix into it and you get a side cut.
09:53.992 --> 09:54.473
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
09:55.229 --> 09:59.095
[SPEAKER_05]: It's, uh, so it took me about 30 minutes to make all the math.
09:59.535 --> 09:59.976
[SPEAKER_05]: What is that?
10:00.557 --> 10:00.757
[SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
10:02.500 --> 10:03.181
[SPEAKER_05]: And that was it.
10:03.882 --> 10:07.728
[SPEAKER_00]: And then onto, into the, into the labs and.
10:08.609 --> 10:09.190
[SPEAKER_00]: Start.
10:09.210 --> 10:11.313
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, just, just, just, so.
10:12.515 --> 10:16.641
[SPEAKER_05]: Persuading on the day first to support me to make a prototype.
10:17.602 --> 10:22.890
[SPEAKER_05]: And then we just went, what was key slope and it was working.
10:23.056 --> 10:36.509
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, because I don't know if this is a myth or something, but had snowboarders already put sidecut into snowboards and were they carving already?
10:36.549 --> 10:39.276
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, it did.
10:39.678 --> 10:43.542
[SPEAKER_05]: I was just explaining my way of thinking about that time.
10:43.882 --> 10:44.423
[SPEAKER_05]: Got it.
10:44.583 --> 10:45.404
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, yes.
10:45.424 --> 10:45.944
[SPEAKER_05]: It was not.
10:46.505 --> 10:49.648
[SPEAKER_05]: I say, oh, look, they have side cuts.
10:49.668 --> 10:50.729
[SPEAKER_05]: Let's make it on the skis.
10:51.010 --> 10:51.891
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, not like that.
10:51.911 --> 10:58.157
[SPEAKER_00]: You'd come across that you had the, it's like, how can we make a ski that does not skid?
10:59.018 --> 11:02.622
[SPEAKER_00]: This is in Musco through all points of the ski Musco through a point.
11:03.222 --> 11:04.464
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you were okay.
11:04.484 --> 11:05.905
[SPEAKER_00]: So you went it from that angle.
11:06.678 --> 11:16.675
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, because as physicists, I must have a background in mathematics, so you calculate everything, you're not just assume something that happens.
11:17.116 --> 11:21.163
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it must be calculated as a professional information.
11:21.443 --> 11:23.146
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, got it.
11:24.108 --> 11:32.061
[SPEAKER_00]: And so then what was the first prototype like was it like what
11:32.041 --> 11:37.247
[SPEAKER_05]: So first time to type, so actually I have a second prototype here behind my back.
11:37.948 --> 11:44.135
[SPEAKER_05]: Now, first prototype was really 90-fully centimeters long.
11:44.335 --> 11:55.488
[SPEAKER_05]: The side cut was about what was that 14 meters, side cut radius, because in mathematics, actually side cut is not radius.
11:55.508 --> 12:00.073
[SPEAKER_05]: It's top of the sinus curve.
12:00.627 --> 12:06.055
[SPEAKER_05]: That's why I don't like to talk about side-cut radius, but it is close enough.
12:06.656 --> 12:14.528
[SPEAKER_00]: So what is a more accurate way, or is it not accuracy?
12:14.589 --> 12:17.012
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it just a better explanation?
12:17.032 --> 12:25.926
[SPEAKER_05]: No, it's in mathematics.
12:26.092 --> 12:32.783
[SPEAKER_05]: And for every angle, you have a different shape of side cut, that's in theory.
12:33.204 --> 12:38.192
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, in practice, you cannot produce skis inside those tab tolerances.
12:38.713 --> 12:44.623
[SPEAKER_05]: So, it's just a mathematical trick, not a...
12:45.143 --> 12:48.830
[SPEAKER_05]: the reality and the reality is good enough to tell the readers.
12:48.850 --> 12:52.136
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, got it, got it, got it, got it, got it.
12:52.156 --> 13:06.443
[SPEAKER_00]: And so do you think there are any more things worth noting about like how a ski works, like as in like what are the elements that need to be present for a ski to turn, whether it's
13:08.296 --> 13:19.708
[SPEAKER_00]: skitted all carved either one, like what are some of the physics principles I guess that people need to understand, have to be present for a skater time.
13:20.829 --> 13:37.746
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay, let me go back into the history again, because after we discovered that coloring or sidecut works, we still didn't have a clue what is the physics-be kind
13:38.232 --> 13:42.658
[SPEAKER_05]: Why some skis perform this way and the other ones that way?
13:43.279 --> 13:45.662
[SPEAKER_05]: Some are, I say good, some are bad.
13:46.724 --> 13:56.858
[SPEAKER_05]: Where's the key connection between physical properties of the skis, side cut, torsional stiffness and bending stiffness and with performance of the skis?
13:57.819 --> 14:03.567
[SPEAKER_05]: For example, the basic question is, some skis don't work on hard surface.
14:04.208 --> 14:07.513
[SPEAKER_05]: They simply don't,
14:08.405 --> 14:13.993
[SPEAKER_05]: So, in my professional deformation, I made measurement.
14:14.013 --> 14:21.705
[SPEAKER_05]: I took a bit of the special device to pull the ski sideways on the snow, and the room pair results.
14:23.247 --> 14:32.421
[SPEAKER_05]: So you have different skis with the same emulation angle, and pull it sideways and measure what is the force.
14:32.722 --> 14:36.206
[SPEAKER_05]: And what was the snow, what sort of snow surface?
14:36.766 --> 14:39.609
[SPEAKER_05]: It was different snow surfaces, it doesn't matter.
14:39.789 --> 14:40.510
[SPEAKER_05]: OK, actually.
14:40.910 --> 14:40.970
[SPEAKER_05]: OK.
14:41.070 --> 14:43.933
[SPEAKER_05]: It was just pool and measure and compare.
14:44.254 --> 14:44.554
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
14:45.355 --> 14:49.819
[SPEAKER_05]: Feeling stereo that some skis don't hold and some skis cold.
14:50.840 --> 14:51.901
[SPEAKER_05]: And then you measure.
14:52.762 --> 15:02.492
[SPEAKER_05]: And when you measure, there is absolutely no difference in friction force sideways.
15:02.911 --> 15:30.994
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, let me just repeat that again, so a person can feel the difference between different skis, skidding sideways, but yet if you use a mechanical machine to measure that, side like skidding, it comes up, it doesn't matter really what you do with the skid, the same measurement is read, is that right, if the same angle is against the snow.
15:31.328 --> 15:32.531
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, exactly.
15:32.571 --> 15:33.172
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh-huh.
15:33.192 --> 15:33.934
[SPEAKER_00]: Very interesting.
15:33.954 --> 15:34.235
[SPEAKER_05]: Doesn't.
15:34.796 --> 15:49.590
[SPEAKER_05]: So we're comparing kids, kids, short skis, well, actually during racing skis, for a World Cup race, a sense on and all in between, and the results were consistently the same.
15:49.975 --> 15:54.160
[SPEAKER_00]: That would go against what most people would think would you agree?
15:55.201 --> 15:58.504
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, yes, what if I was against what we were expecting.
16:00.647 --> 16:01.468
[SPEAKER_00]: Cool, keep going.
16:01.508 --> 16:02.008
[SPEAKER_00]: I like this.
16:02.208 --> 16:02.549
[SPEAKER_00]: It's good.
16:03.410 --> 16:07.274
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay, so the question is then what is the difference?
16:07.714 --> 16:08.015
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
16:09.997 --> 16:10.758
[SPEAKER_00]: It's got to be what?
16:10.918 --> 16:14.081
[SPEAKER_00]: It's got to be the the the skier then.
16:14.302 --> 16:19.307
[SPEAKER_00]: It's got to be the person riding it or is it just got to be
16:19.945 --> 16:27.234
[SPEAKER_05]: No, no, because if you go on the slope and ski with skis, different skis, you feel consistently the same difference.
16:27.734 --> 16:28.275
[SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
16:28.295 --> 16:35.844
[SPEAKER_05]: With different skiers, they all agree that this skis, clothing better, this skis, clothing is not holding.
16:36.084 --> 16:37.926
[SPEAKER_05]: As good in holding as so on.
16:37.947 --> 16:39.448
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah.
16:39.468 --> 16:42.472
[SPEAKER_05]: You get those consistent results on the other side.
16:43.213 --> 16:45.836
[SPEAKER_05]: So the question is, where is the difference?
16:46.517 --> 16:49.260
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
16:49.848 --> 17:00.201
[SPEAKER_05]: We know we differentiate two types of movements of skier as translation and notation.
17:01.803 --> 17:09.533
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay, in translation, so you are going down here, making curves, you are following a certain path.
17:09.553 --> 17:12.136
[SPEAKER_05]: This depends on the external forces.
17:13.258 --> 17:16.682
[SPEAKER_05]: And external forces are as we defined.
17:17.219 --> 17:18.901
[SPEAKER_05]: measured always the same.
17:19.181 --> 17:25.629
[SPEAKER_05]: So there probably is not a big difference, but rotation is another question.
17:26.490 --> 17:37.343
[SPEAKER_05]: So it turns out that the skis, which don't hold, on the icy slope, they are not stable enough in the rational sense.
17:38.204 --> 17:47.074
[SPEAKER_05]: So that means if you put your center of gravity just a little bit off
17:47.493 --> 17:51.418
[SPEAKER_05]: We will rotate out of the turn and you will have a feeling that it's not holding.
17:53.702 --> 17:54.382
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
17:54.443 --> 17:55.464
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, yes.
17:55.704 --> 17:57.327
[SPEAKER_00]: So the ski wants to.
17:57.627 --> 18:03.014
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's when people talk about like a set of the ski having a self-steering effect.
18:03.074 --> 18:07.881
[SPEAKER_00]: It kind of break the tail breaks away and it the ski turns on itself.
18:08.587 --> 18:09.148
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
18:09.649 --> 18:09.909
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
18:10.831 --> 18:19.564
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's dependent on the alignment of the center of gravity through a particular point on the scales, right?
18:20.506 --> 18:20.866
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
18:21.227 --> 18:32.164
[SPEAKER_05]: And of course, when your center of gravity goes off a little bit, that will produce a torsional deformation of the scale.
18:32.768 --> 18:44.747
[SPEAKER_05]: So that's when the torsional stiffness comes into play because in this measurement, when we measure torsional stiffness, did not have any influence on how the ski is holding.
18:46.290 --> 18:56.987
[SPEAKER_05]: But when you go off just a little bit in front or behind the winding area, then you can get huge differences.
18:57.575 --> 19:09.171
[SPEAKER_00]: And we are just purely talking, like say, in the foreign arft, going off the direction, off this line, this center point.
19:09.211 --> 19:09.692
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that right?
19:10.493 --> 19:11.054
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
19:11.074 --> 19:16.041
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, not we're not talking like the lateral frontal type plane.
19:16.842 --> 19:18.965
[SPEAKER_00]: So, was that a next thing?
19:19.907 --> 19:24.493
[SPEAKER_05]: The key point is where your complete force is acting.
19:24.878 --> 19:25.619
[SPEAKER_05]: on the ski.
19:25.919 --> 19:29.163
[SPEAKER_05]: I can't change it, of course, of a turn.
19:29.503 --> 19:48.203
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's very complicated, but intuition, so good skier has this musculine memory and he can adopt this position very precisely and he can skill effortlessly because he is fast enough in adopting
19:48.824 --> 19:53.630
[SPEAKER_05]: correct position regarding on the face of the term he is currently in.
19:54.191 --> 19:54.612
[SPEAKER_00]: Got it.
19:54.872 --> 20:05.686
[SPEAKER_00]: So he's constantly, he is so in tune every time, if maybe he doesn't line up as well, he will adjust his center of gravity to line up better.
20:05.766 --> 20:07.829
[SPEAKER_00]: So that ski holds again.
20:07.849 --> 20:12.495
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's constantly throughout different points of the arc.
20:12.515 --> 20:18.122
[SPEAKER_00]: He knows how to line that up
20:18.102 --> 20:18.723
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
20:18.883 --> 20:19.725
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, she.
20:19.745 --> 20:20.486
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, she.
20:20.506 --> 20:21.167
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, she.
20:21.307 --> 20:21.728
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
20:22.128 --> 20:22.849
[SPEAKER_00]: That's incorrect.
20:23.170 --> 20:25.273
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
20:25.293 --> 20:30.141
[SPEAKER_05]: I can hear snowboarding, snowboarding comes into play.
20:31.884 --> 20:32.164
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
20:32.204 --> 20:34.708
[SPEAKER_05]: So, I've started snowboarding.
20:35.569 --> 20:45.645
[SPEAKER_05]: And I learned you must go forward, backward and forward and backward.
20:46.148 --> 20:49.213
[SPEAKER_05]: putting more pressure on front or back leg.
20:49.513 --> 20:49.814
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
20:50.555 --> 20:51.116
[SPEAKER_05]: It's very easy.
20:51.236 --> 20:53.279
[SPEAKER_05]: On this, this is not that simple.
20:53.700 --> 20:54.181
[SPEAKER_05]: No.
20:55.944 --> 20:58.368
[SPEAKER_05]: But snowboarding is the same physics.
20:59.189 --> 20:59.489
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
21:01.072 --> 21:04.918
[SPEAKER_05]: So I learned from snowboard back to skiing that this is it.
21:06.701 --> 21:13.692
[SPEAKER_05]: And then we made some complicated devices how to simulate that into lab and so on.
21:14.161 --> 21:21.593
[SPEAKER_05]: It proves that, uh, so snowman had influenced on the ski theory development.
21:22.134 --> 21:23.235
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, cool.
21:24.097 --> 21:35.435
[SPEAKER_00]: So would you say then like, because I guess a snowboard is because the feet are wider part, more spread along the whole entire length of the pieces of equipment.
21:36.457 --> 21:41.805
[SPEAKER_00]: Have you got a much larger room for error with that be correct?
21:42.511 --> 21:51.474
[SPEAKER_00]: or not necessarily, no, or do you, or does the person just sense it more easily, like what how would you describe that?
21:52.417 --> 21:58.613
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, more or less, it's more easy to feel.
21:59.116 --> 22:01.779
[SPEAKER_05]: what you have done and what is the reality?
22:02.140 --> 22:02.600
[SPEAKER_00]: Perfect.
22:02.801 --> 22:03.081
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
22:03.321 --> 22:03.842
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
22:03.862 --> 22:10.471
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's actually a human sensory type of that is the biggest difference.
22:10.731 --> 22:11.872
[SPEAKER_00]: So okay.
22:12.453 --> 22:24.769
[SPEAKER_00]: So then could you almost assume the best skiers then have the most finely adjusted sensory awareness in their body?
22:25.036 --> 22:29.044
[SPEAKER_05]: skin is then more or less like saying gymnastics.
22:30.066 --> 22:44.296
[SPEAKER_05]: In gymnastics, if you make 10,000 approximately 10,000 good repetitions of the same elements, then you learn that element.
22:44.537 --> 22:45.238
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
22:45.674 --> 22:48.678
[SPEAKER_05]: So it's all about proper repetition.
22:48.838 --> 22:51.382
[SPEAKER_05]: So first to define what is the proper way.
22:51.702 --> 22:55.227
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, then to repeat that 10,000 times that's how it takes.
22:55.247 --> 23:00.735
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so you do A, you get B and you do it thousands of times.
23:00.835 --> 23:05.642
[SPEAKER_00]: So then your body automatically knows when when A happens B will be the result.
23:06.884 --> 23:07.104
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
23:07.485 --> 23:08.526
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, cool.
23:09.097 --> 23:12.121
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, sorry, I saw it tracked you there, well, where are we up?
23:12.141 --> 23:17.267
[SPEAKER_00]: So you learned from snowboarding to help and then test this.
23:17.287 --> 23:17.787
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes.
23:18.428 --> 23:31.464
[SPEAKER_05]: And then you learned that every device on snow, for example, even the car, they have a, so the device has a certain response to input.
23:32.265 --> 23:34.007
[SPEAKER_05]: So in your car, if you turn,
23:34.493 --> 23:42.581
[SPEAKER_05]: Stealing wheel for 10 degrees, you expect for every car to have approximately the same radius of a turn.
23:43.962 --> 23:54.713
[SPEAKER_05]: It's the same for skis and for snowboards and for everything, but you don't steer with your steering wheel, but with your position of center of gravity.
23:56.455 --> 24:04.483
[SPEAKER_05]: So the property of every ski
24:05.071 --> 24:10.876
[SPEAKER_05]: when you move your center of gravity for certain amount forward or backward.
24:11.316 --> 24:24.408
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay, yeah, I have a curve which at one point is zero, so at that point you can make a side movement without rotation.
24:25.469 --> 24:34.757
[SPEAKER_05]: And then if you move 10 centimeters forward, you will rotate at certain speed,
24:35.294 --> 24:42.381
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay, so if you have a racing ski for 10 centimeters movement, you will rotate very slowly.
24:43.462 --> 24:50.350
[SPEAKER_05]: It is made for higher loads, so at low speed, it is really difficult to skim with racing ski.
24:52.131 --> 25:00.340
[SPEAKER_05]: And for beginners, because they are slowed, they don't make such big load on the ski.
25:00.843 --> 25:08.451
[SPEAKER_05]: Well, you make a skew, which rotates much faster for the same amount of centre of gravity movement.
25:08.471 --> 25:09.513
[SPEAKER_00]: Movement, okay.
25:09.933 --> 25:10.774
[SPEAKER_00]: He had a right.
25:11.495 --> 25:12.015
[SPEAKER_00]: Interesting.
25:12.476 --> 25:19.964
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, what are you doing with the skee then that makes that difference?
25:20.825 --> 25:22.046
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I know what it feels like.
25:22.807 --> 25:30.816
[SPEAKER_00]: Because but what exactly is it that you're doing to manipulate that?
25:31.117 --> 25:58.407
[SPEAKER_05]: on only and only that really yes because the banding stiffness and torsional stiffness so banding stiffness goes up with power of 4 with core thickness so if you change core thickness by 10 percent yeah banding stiffness will go up 40 50 percent okay
25:59.146 --> 26:12.086
[SPEAKER_05]: So in skip production then, you have a big problem because you have the skis of a relatively thin can imagine the core thickness in the shower or tail, it's about one millimeter.
26:12.347 --> 26:12.768
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
26:13.609 --> 26:18.136
[SPEAKER_05]: So I would refer for a millimeter to use quite a change.
26:18.597 --> 26:19.378
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right.
26:20.400 --> 26:27.010
[SPEAKER_00]: And so does it also the core not only the thickness, so the core material makes no difference.
26:27.665 --> 26:29.908
[SPEAKER_00]: more or less no.
26:29.928 --> 26:32.250
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, it has a small effect.
26:33.151 --> 26:45.465
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, it has a small effect, so if you change wood from a popular tool, it will make some effect, yes, but generally speaking, when we are talking about skip production.
26:45.485 --> 26:55.697
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, not about skip experiments and all that stuff,
26:55.998 --> 27:07.091
[SPEAKER_05]: input material as possible to make as much different skis as possible, and this can be done for the whole range of skis.
27:07.892 --> 27:13.878
[SPEAKER_05]: This can be done with for constructions generally speaking.
27:14.799 --> 27:25.752
[SPEAKER_05]: So you have two core materials, two types of lemonade or a minimum or whatever, and combination of those
27:26.356 --> 27:31.065
[SPEAKER_05]: And you can produce any skill you like.
27:31.085 --> 27:43.268
[SPEAKER_05]: Of course, you cannot sell this concept to the end customers or you must produce some marketing stuff for that.
27:43.518 --> 28:05.812
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, then what, so when I ski like a cap constructed ski versus a sandwich constructed ski, what is is a lot of it, like the feeling difference as it got to do with the thickness or like what is what is it I'm feeling with those differences.
28:06.773 --> 28:09.778
[SPEAKER_05]: So, you are feeling differences in
28:09.758 --> 28:25.477
[SPEAKER_05]: bending and stiffness, bending stiffness and torsional stiffness, because the steel edge which is interacting with the snow, steel edge does not know what kind of core or construction you have in the top.
28:27.539 --> 28:38.432
[SPEAKER_05]: Even the, I say, the width of the ski for example is not important until
28:39.053 --> 28:43.860
[SPEAKER_05]: because when the outside edge is in the air, what's the difference?
28:43.880 --> 28:46.937
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, no, nothing acting upon it.
28:47.575 --> 28:57.287
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, that kind of thinking you have to, let's say, keep your brain all the time when somebody says you're some crazy stuff.
28:57.507 --> 29:01.713
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, okay.
29:02.554 --> 29:02.894
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
29:03.455 --> 29:10.123
[SPEAKER_00]: So, and then, so then in a, because I've just recently started skiing a lot more on.
29:11.825 --> 29:21.334
[SPEAKER_00]: like race skis that I guess would be like on the make that they considered fist style race skis.
29:21.374 --> 29:27.960
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not the high end kind of like carveski, but it's actually built for ski racing.
29:28.601 --> 29:38.710
[SPEAKER_00]: And so in that ski and I really liked the feeling far more like I felt like I was on toy skis perhaps
29:39.365 --> 29:53.078
[SPEAKER_00]: What is it like, is it also the type of wood that I'm feeling because I know that they're like, say, the vocal race tiger and then the vocal fists, slalom race tiger, the difference is really amazing.
29:54.019 --> 30:03.608
[SPEAKER_00]: But is it the wood in it that I'm feeling the difference with is it a number of factors and is that, that's just changed because I know it's stiffer.
30:04.389 --> 30:04.729
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
30:04.749 --> 30:05.150
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
30:05.951 --> 30:06.071
[SPEAKER_05]: OK.
30:07.312 --> 30:07.532
[SPEAKER_05]: So.
30:08.187 --> 30:12.353
[SPEAKER_05]: It's almost 20 years ago since I was last time in Fertile in Productions.
30:12.373 --> 30:14.456
[SPEAKER_05]: So I haven't answered them.
30:14.476 --> 30:21.246
[SPEAKER_05]: They had how they are making skis an hour, but as far as I understand industry, it changed.
30:21.626 --> 30:22.868
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
30:22.888 --> 30:32.201
[SPEAKER_05]: So if we are talking about Fertile, they are using very simple procedure for using all skis.
30:33.143 --> 30:36.287
[SPEAKER_05]: So maybe they have put some more,
30:37.178 --> 30:53.077
[SPEAKER_05]: less fiber into the top skis than to the let's say, but mainly, I would guess is just the changing thickness of the core.
30:53.377 --> 31:01.287
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, now that I think about looking at them, like put him, yeah, it probably is even a male to male thicker, yeah.
31:01.567 --> 31:05.532
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you calculate back is
31:06.102 --> 31:06.903
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
31:06.923 --> 31:08.626
[SPEAKER_00]: So then down here, right?
31:08.666 --> 31:10.610
[SPEAKER_00]: So really, yeah, multiplies up.
31:11.231 --> 31:11.651
[SPEAKER_00]: Doesn't it?
31:12.332 --> 31:18.202
[SPEAKER_00]: And so even the binding plate, then that's why a ski racing skill will have a binding, a special binding plate.
31:19.544 --> 31:24.553
[SPEAKER_05]: So function of binding plate is to fold.
31:25.494 --> 31:27.638
[SPEAKER_05]: First of all, it's a razor.
31:28.360 --> 31:30.983
[SPEAKER_05]: You are a little bit higher than on long enough.
31:31.003 --> 31:35.347
[SPEAKER_05]: So my personal best in getting higher is 15 centimeters.
31:38.110 --> 31:38.871
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god.
31:39.511 --> 31:40.512
[SPEAKER_00]: You didn't break your legs?
31:41.733 --> 31:41.934
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
31:42.194 --> 31:46.278
[SPEAKER_05]: No, first of all.
31:46.298 --> 31:50.542
[SPEAKER_05]: It's an illusion that this will break your legs.
31:52.905 --> 31:54.887
[SPEAKER_05]: It's another sad story about that.
31:54.927 --> 31:56.308
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
31:56.795 --> 31:59.418
[SPEAKER_05]: Let's keep it like I simple down.
31:59.438 --> 32:25.350
[SPEAKER_05]: So the plate itself is torsionalistic and it produces or result of using the plate is also that the skin in the area of the plate is torsionalist, deeper than without, but because the hose that hold the plates down are elongated,
32:25.904 --> 32:28.367
[SPEAKER_05]: they don't interfere with banding stiffness.
32:29.448 --> 32:39.220
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay, so you kept the banding stiffness or the lime of the ski, but increased a little bit towards the stiffness.
32:39.240 --> 32:40.562
[SPEAKER_00]: This is okay, right.
32:41.263 --> 32:46.249
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the lift just gives you more leverage to tip it.
32:46.530 --> 32:46.950
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
32:47.521 --> 32:59.635
[SPEAKER_05]: the lift is just, let's say, side effect of the lift is that your keyboard gets on the slope later on at larger angle-ation angle.
33:00.436 --> 33:03.019
[SPEAKER_05]: That's the only function of the eraser.
33:03.039 --> 33:03.480
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay.
33:03.960 --> 33:04.140
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
33:04.841 --> 33:07.024
[SPEAKER_00]: So what happened when you had 15 centimeters?
33:07.985 --> 33:09.006
[SPEAKER_00]: What was it like?
33:09.728 --> 33:10.650
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it was great.
33:12.052 --> 33:13.334
[SPEAKER_05]: I was carving like crazy.
33:15.057 --> 33:20.787
[SPEAKER_00]: Was it like almost like those, those snowboard like body carving kind of people?
33:20.807 --> 33:22.049
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you feel almost like that?
33:23.191 --> 33:25.835
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, it was, it was very aggressive.
33:25.855 --> 33:33.688
[SPEAKER_05]: I used for, um, Salam ski racing, Salam ski for, uh, for the base.
33:33.708 --> 33:35.331
[SPEAKER_05]: And then I put some, uh,
33:35.800 --> 33:43.489
[SPEAKER_05]: profile, aluminum profile, 15 cm high and on top of that also, keep binding and it was really high.
33:44.250 --> 33:59.587
[SPEAKER_05]: But the feeling, the feeling was, so it was a little bit difficult to skid, but on car when it was, you were just like on a Formula 1 car, so you have additional edge grip.
33:59.608 --> 34:03.512
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, okay, so I just felt like it did not want to slide at all.
34:03.644 --> 34:10.531
[SPEAKER_05]: No, it did not, it just carved down the slope as fast as you want.
34:11.232 --> 34:14.556
[SPEAKER_05]: It was the same effect as with short skis, for example.
34:14.616 --> 34:15.897
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
34:15.917 --> 34:24.987
[SPEAKER_05]: But we used to produce also some kind of snow blades, and that side cut was also about seven meters or maybe last.
34:26.208 --> 34:32.875
[SPEAKER_05]: And as long as you stay on the edge,
34:33.277 --> 34:56.027
[SPEAKER_00]: maybe sell it to kilometers per hour, on the edge, yep, yeah, the moment you were skating you are just dangerous, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, now like my head is going back to that skidding topic, so center of gravity moves forward or back from that, could you almost just call it the sweet spot?
34:57.475 --> 34:57.836
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
34:58.236 --> 35:17.185
[SPEAKER_00]: So, like I'm thinking, right, on a snowblade, a very short ski, wouldn't the room for Arab be smaller than a long ski, or is it got to do with another factor that actually, is that right?
35:18.227 --> 35:18.868
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's right.
35:18.948 --> 35:25.137
[SPEAKER_05]: Because when you are talking about rotation, you're talking about torque.
35:25.438 --> 35:25.778
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
35:26.078 --> 35:31.927
[SPEAKER_05]: torque is forced multiplied by level, directed right and English.
35:32.207 --> 35:32.488
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
35:32.508 --> 35:32.728
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
35:33.128 --> 35:46.568
[SPEAKER_05]: So the longer the ski is, maybe the force on the tip of the tail is lower, but because the level is larger, the torque is larger.
35:46.588 --> 35:46.849
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
35:48.171 --> 35:49.733
[SPEAKER_05]: And that's the point of the long ski.
35:50.054 --> 35:50.314
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
35:51.408 --> 35:52.670
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
35:52.690 --> 36:03.983
[SPEAKER_05]: And when you measure back, if you load back to measurements, the measure pressure distribution under the skin, you can do that and also many companies do that.
36:04.844 --> 36:12.353
[SPEAKER_05]: And you calculate back
36:12.839 --> 36:17.748
[SPEAKER_05]: For example, pressure distribution or pressure under your tip and tail is very small.
36:17.769 --> 36:19.091
[SPEAKER_05]: It could be very small.
36:19.452 --> 36:19.692
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
36:19.792 --> 36:24.481
[SPEAKER_05]: But the torque on the teneter of gravity is the largest under the tip and the tail.
36:24.582 --> 36:24.882
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
36:25.263 --> 36:25.544
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
36:26.004 --> 36:26.325
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
36:27.335 --> 36:27.736
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
36:28.597 --> 36:28.977
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
36:29.658 --> 36:53.853
[SPEAKER_00]: Now in our messaging before we kind of land this chart up like you were almost you were saying there was a couple of myths you wanted to to debunk I mean I think we've maybe started to get into that with how a ski turns but did you want to talk on that topic like the big toe and yeah that would be I think a good good thing to maybe bring up.
36:54.013 --> 36:56.717
[SPEAKER_05]: I always had a
36:57.592 --> 37:05.064
[SPEAKER_05]: I know, I have a feeling, you know, this is my profession, the formation.
37:05.164 --> 37:06.206
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't have feelings.
37:06.266 --> 37:24.375
[SPEAKER_05]: I have feelings for my wife and my kids, and my thoughts, and so on, but I really don't feel, so my problem in skit testing, I was testing my
37:24.912 --> 37:27.455
[SPEAKER_05]: Other testers said, okay, there is a difference.
37:27.515 --> 37:30.579
[SPEAKER_05]: Huge difference between that skill and that skill.
37:30.599 --> 37:33.602
[SPEAKER_05]: I said, yeah, sure, it's some difference.
37:33.622 --> 37:37.947
[SPEAKER_05]: I felt the same difference, but to me, it was not important.
37:39.829 --> 37:41.652
[SPEAKER_05]: I could ski either way.
37:42.172 --> 37:49.941
[SPEAKER_05]: So in my whole career, I had maybe two or three pairs of skis which were impossible, which I said, okay, that's bad.
37:50.262 --> 37:50.582
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
37:51.575 --> 37:54.238
[SPEAKER_05]: Otherwise, I could ski with every ski.
37:55.400 --> 37:55.961
[SPEAKER_05]: No problem.
37:56.121 --> 37:56.601
[SPEAKER_05]: Enjoy it.
37:57.523 --> 38:01.468
[SPEAKER_05]: Maybe a little bit more, a little bit less, but not a big deal.
38:02.890 --> 38:10.539
[SPEAKER_05]: So that's why this other sensibility, or let's say, making big think out of nothing.
38:11.461 --> 38:16.587
[SPEAKER_05]: This is what it, let's say, makes me nervous.
38:16.607 --> 38:21.193
[SPEAKER_05]: And then of course,
38:21.730 --> 38:27.476
[SPEAKER_05]: Tip of the skis to soft and the skis will not work, I cannot understand that.
38:28.578 --> 38:41.052
[SPEAKER_05]: I cannot understand the relation between, because there is, when you calculate, no relation yes, you can make a soft, softer tip and softer tail and so on.
38:42.173 --> 38:46.538
[SPEAKER_05]: But what will be the result on the skis slope?
38:46.558 --> 38:48.480
[SPEAKER_05]: There's no linear connection with that.
38:49.085 --> 39:01.819
[SPEAKER_05]: You cannot prove it mathematically, if I make a softer tip, what will happen is, if you make a softer tip, then the pressure on the tail will be reduced.
39:03.160 --> 39:05.443
[SPEAKER_03]: Because of course.
39:05.463 --> 39:18.417
[SPEAKER_05]: Because some of all talks on your bodies or on the skin is always zero.
39:18.818 --> 39:23.004
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I see what you're saying.
39:23.224 --> 39:27.229
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, interesting.
39:27.249 --> 39:36.141
[SPEAKER_05]: That's why in skin industry there's a lot of myths which don't have logical connection then to basic physics.
39:36.582 --> 39:39.506
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
39:40.006 --> 39:47.897
[SPEAKER_05]: For example, we have changed this core and added stripes of this and this wood into the core.
39:48.383 --> 39:55.073
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, that's honestly, this will not have an effect on the scale.
39:55.093 --> 39:57.376
[SPEAKER_05]: The other big story is about vibration.
39:57.877 --> 39:58.097
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
39:59.379 --> 40:03.105
[SPEAKER_05]: The tip is vibrating and that's why the ski is not good.
40:04.046 --> 40:04.727
[SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.
40:04.747 --> 40:04.968
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
40:05.749 --> 40:08.653
[SPEAKER_05]: So make a small experiment.
40:10.336 --> 40:11.337
[SPEAKER_05]: Stand on skis.
40:11.907 --> 40:16.412
[SPEAKER_05]: and ask your friends to lift up and down your tip of the ski.
40:16.832 --> 40:17.032
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
40:17.293 --> 40:19.555
[SPEAKER_05]: And then tell me, if you are vibrating or not.
40:23.920 --> 40:24.120
[SPEAKER_05]: I can't.
40:24.240 --> 40:27.403
[SPEAKER_05]: You see the point that vibration comes under foot.
40:27.944 --> 40:28.144
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
40:29.125 --> 40:30.186
[SPEAKER_05]: That's a different type.
40:30.487 --> 40:30.707
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
40:30.847 --> 40:31.388
[SPEAKER_05]: And so on.
40:31.408 --> 40:35.552
[SPEAKER_05]: So, it is not enough energy.
40:36.089 --> 40:42.275
[SPEAKER_05]: to make all the system to start vibrating, to people, just like that.
40:42.656 --> 40:42.896
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
40:43.957 --> 40:44.057
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
40:44.197 --> 40:54.087
[SPEAKER_05]: The other one is, let's say, the basic one, which still persist after so many years, I have loaded the ski and the ski bandit.
40:55.669 --> 40:57.871
[SPEAKER_05]: That's stupid.
40:58.972 --> 40:59.733
[SPEAKER_05]: Think of it again.
41:00.714 --> 41:04.898
[SPEAKER_05]: When you stand on the skis with your weight only,
41:05.570 --> 41:08.435
[SPEAKER_05]: It's already bandwidth.
41:09.076 --> 41:13.724
[SPEAKER_05]: And then you ask your friends to piggyback on you.
41:14.044 --> 41:16.969
[SPEAKER_00]: On you and back with the skid band more.
41:18.191 --> 41:18.972
[SPEAKER_00]: Flat on the snow.
41:20.154 --> 41:21.256
[SPEAKER_05]: On the sideways.
41:21.356 --> 41:22.398
[SPEAKER_05]: On the slow.
41:22.418 --> 41:22.879
[SPEAKER_05]: On the slow.
41:23.420 --> 41:23.720
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
41:25.002 --> 41:28.408
[SPEAKER_05]: When you are on the slow, hard surface and hard snow.
41:28.628 --> 41:29.670
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
41:30.410 --> 41:39.282
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'll say still on the scales flat on the slope, no, it won't bend more because the on the edge because you are on the slope, yes.
41:39.443 --> 41:41.125
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yes, yes.
41:41.666 --> 41:42.847
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're standing still, no.
41:42.868 --> 41:44.029
[SPEAKER_05]: No, no.
41:45.171 --> 41:48.375
[SPEAKER_05]: Why should bend more if you are in the turn?
41:49.216 --> 41:50.558
[SPEAKER_05]: You are at the same ageing.
41:50.939 --> 41:51.179
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
41:52.281 --> 41:54.264
[SPEAKER_05]: And the same two g loads.
41:54.284 --> 41:56.046
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, okay.
41:56.650 --> 42:01.955
[SPEAKER_05]: If it doesn't bend when you are still, why should it bend when you are skinned?
42:02.816 --> 42:03.136
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
42:03.156 --> 42:04.958
[SPEAKER_05]: This is obviously stupid.
42:05.278 --> 42:05.499
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
42:05.779 --> 42:05.979
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
42:06.820 --> 42:13.046
[SPEAKER_05]: And again, if it would bend, then the tip and the tail were sticking to the air.
42:13.947 --> 42:14.227
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
42:14.407 --> 42:14.667
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
42:14.948 --> 42:15.088
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
42:16.489 --> 42:18.791
[SPEAKER_05]: So what is holding the tip and tail in the air?
42:19.472 --> 42:19.732
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
42:20.873 --> 42:21.194
[SPEAKER_00]: Nothing.
42:21.314 --> 42:21.614
[SPEAKER_00]: Well.
42:21.654 --> 42:22.455
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah.
42:23.549 --> 42:24.110
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
42:24.872 --> 42:26.155
[SPEAKER_00]: So then what is it?
42:26.175 --> 42:27.337
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think so I keep going.
42:28.940 --> 42:35.314
[SPEAKER_05]: That kind of let's admit that there are still after many years.
42:35.800 --> 42:42.870
[SPEAKER_05]: is king and repeating itself, repeating itself, and the internet is just helping that.
42:43.110 --> 42:43.410
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
42:44.031 --> 42:52.603
[SPEAKER_00]: So I guess it's not that the ski is not bending, it's just your pointing out the mechanism of the bending.
42:53.324 --> 42:54.405
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that correct?
42:54.906 --> 42:55.267
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
42:55.507 --> 43:05.200
[SPEAKER_05]: The pressure distribution under the ski goes very smoothly.
43:05.686 --> 43:11.593
[SPEAKER_05]: There's only two points that contact points of the ski tip and tip and tail.
43:11.613 --> 43:22.885
[SPEAKER_05]: And then you press it down until you touch the snow surface with the center of the ski, the ski will bend.
43:23.345 --> 43:23.486
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
43:23.926 --> 43:26.489
[SPEAKER_05]: From there on, it will not bend anymore.
43:27.250 --> 43:32.576
[SPEAKER_05]: Because the pressure will be transferred from the underfoot straight to the snow surface.
43:32.816 --> 43:35.659
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
43:36.314 --> 43:37.075
[SPEAKER_05]: Yep.
43:37.095 --> 43:41.619
[SPEAKER_05]: If the pressure would be higher in tip and tail, then the skill would bend.
43:42.840 --> 43:43.161
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
43:43.301 --> 43:44.022
[SPEAKER_00]: No reason.
43:44.042 --> 43:44.882
[SPEAKER_00]: The pressure would.
43:45.363 --> 43:46.944
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, increase the, yeah, okay.
43:47.665 --> 43:47.905
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
43:48.786 --> 44:05.022
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so then the explanation for then is like a upscated bends more through a tunnel or
44:05.677 --> 44:06.719
[SPEAKER_05]: only by sidecut.
44:06.919 --> 44:07.400
[SPEAKER_05]: Nothing else.
44:07.701 --> 44:07.961
[SPEAKER_00]: Nothing.
44:08.142 --> 44:08.382
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
44:09.304 --> 44:16.758
[SPEAKER_05]: And the load needed to touch surface with the center of the ski is relatively low.
44:17.399 --> 44:17.619
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
44:18.501 --> 44:20.004
[SPEAKER_05]: So everybody can do it.
44:20.485 --> 44:21.166
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, sure.
44:22.188 --> 44:26.115
[SPEAKER_05]: He is not strong enough to bend the racing ski round.
44:27.243 --> 44:32.813
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's true because yeah, you don't need that much.
44:33.695 --> 44:38.444
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, load, wait to put the center of the ski touching the snow.
44:38.484 --> 44:40.628
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay.
44:41.209 --> 44:41.470
[SPEAKER_00]: Cool.
44:41.971 --> 44:42.432
[SPEAKER_00]: It was good.
44:42.732 --> 44:43.193
[SPEAKER_05]: Thanks.
44:44.692 --> 44:45.894
[SPEAKER_05]: And that's the basic one.
44:45.914 --> 44:52.624
[SPEAKER_05]: And then you go on and on and on, uh, I cannot even number all the myths.
44:53.425 --> 44:54.527
[SPEAKER_05]: That's the same.
44:54.627 --> 45:13.416
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so, so then I guess because, like, did, are you aware, like, sort of my thing is I'm very interested in, I guess, the body and biomechanics and what, how much?
45:13.396 --> 45:21.509
[SPEAKER_00]: someone can I guess use their body to affect what is happening with the ski.
45:21.549 --> 45:37.193
[SPEAKER_00]: So then if we talk about lining up with this sweet spot along the length of the ski and not kind of, you know, making the tailbreak away or I guess having the ability because not all the time do we want the
45:37.173 --> 45:46.662
[SPEAKER_00]: because we want to be able to slow down at points off-piece or avoiding people or make a sharp turn than the radius of the ski.
45:47.342 --> 45:56.571
[SPEAKER_00]: So then, like how much do you believe in, you know, talking about technique or movements made with the skier having an effect?
45:57.912 --> 45:58.452
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, okay.
45:58.592 --> 46:06.960
[SPEAKER_05]: So different techniques
46:07.582 --> 46:11.887
[SPEAKER_05]: When you are sitting in the car, you can turn the wheel left or right.
46:13.649 --> 46:23.940
[SPEAKER_05]: But you can change your position in the seat, and your ability to turn the steering wheel will be changed.
46:24.681 --> 46:24.961
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
46:26.243 --> 46:28.145
[SPEAKER_05]: So it's the same with skitt technique.
46:28.425 --> 46:35.513
[SPEAKER_05]: In some body positions, you have more influence of how you will adopt your center of gravity position.
46:35.982 --> 46:36.783
[SPEAKER_05]: than in others.
46:37.103 --> 46:37.364
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
46:38.305 --> 46:52.322
[SPEAKER_05]: So that's why we are, I say, not standing completely upright, but our knees are banded during skin, because then we can change without changing lean angle.
46:53.063 --> 46:55.847
[SPEAKER_05]: That's, we can change angle-ation of the skin.
46:57.469 --> 47:01.414
[SPEAKER_05]: So the skin tone goes like this.
47:01.914 --> 47:04.858
[SPEAKER_05]: You go, you start
47:05.412 --> 47:06.753
[SPEAKER_05]: leaning inwards.
47:07.534 --> 47:13.780
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm talking about carving or skating skills and skating turning, doesn't make a big difference.
47:13.861 --> 47:14.121
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
47:15.082 --> 47:35.082
[SPEAKER_05]: You tip inwards, so down slope and you hope that the ski will follow and start to turn so that it will catch you up on the on the other side of the
47:35.905 --> 47:47.660
[SPEAKER_05]: If you ride a bicycle straight and you want to make left turn, the question is, how you turn your stealing wheel?
47:48.081 --> 47:48.241
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
47:48.562 --> 47:49.242
[SPEAKER_05]: Left or right?
47:50.484 --> 47:50.744
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
47:51.726 --> 47:51.986
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
47:53.428 --> 47:54.209
[SPEAKER_05]: Of violence.
47:54.669 --> 47:55.911
[SPEAKER_00]: To fall inside.
47:55.991 --> 47:56.252
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
47:56.652 --> 47:56.952
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
47:57.553 --> 47:57.774
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
47:57.854 --> 47:58.995
[SPEAKER_05]: Is it the same screening?
47:59.035 --> 47:59.516
[SPEAKER_05]: So yeah.
47:59.856 --> 48:01.238
[SPEAKER_05]: And then coordinate.
48:01.707 --> 48:06.452
[SPEAKER_05]: how fast how tight your turn is to avoid falling?
48:06.492 --> 48:07.333
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
48:08.414 --> 48:10.036
[SPEAKER_05]: Inside or outside, it doesn't matter.
48:10.296 --> 48:10.537
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
48:10.777 --> 48:15.883
[SPEAKER_05]: And you coordinate that by angulation of the ski.
48:16.984 --> 48:22.790
[SPEAKER_05]: Sometimes your speed is high enough, so it adds up everything.
48:22.850 --> 48:28.997
[SPEAKER_05]: If you are too slow and you lean too much in, then you have to
48:29.467 --> 48:38.419
[SPEAKER_05]: You have to increase the angle, and in that case, you push your knees inside, you increase the angle, that way and shorten the term.
48:38.699 --> 48:38.980
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
48:39.000 --> 48:46.310
[SPEAKER_05]: And so on, it's a lot of combinations of movements in skiing involved to perform a perfect term.
48:46.630 --> 48:46.930
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
48:47.511 --> 48:50.395
[SPEAKER_05]: That's why robots don't ski.
48:50.965 --> 48:52.467
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yeah, yeah.
48:52.508 --> 48:52.988
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
48:53.048 --> 49:02.023
[SPEAKER_00]: When you look at the videos on YouTube of robots trying to just do a simple race, they can't even make it really past the first gate.
49:03.245 --> 49:06.911
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, but actually they do ski, but they don't.
49:07.432 --> 49:14.183
[SPEAKER_05]: So if they use algorithms like a mathematical algorithms to predict what will happen.
49:14.503 --> 49:14.764
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
49:15.505 --> 49:17.428
[SPEAKER_05]: Then they don't ski.
49:18.826 --> 49:23.191
[SPEAKER_05]: But I have a friend of mine who is in this kind of experiments.
49:23.851 --> 49:26.274
[SPEAKER_05]: He made a different kind of program.
49:26.735 --> 49:32.461
[SPEAKER_05]: So holistic ways of, with Neonon, that work and that kind of stuff.
49:32.481 --> 49:33.362
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't understand.
49:33.502 --> 49:33.742
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
49:35.104 --> 49:40.469
[SPEAKER_05]: But that robot taught himself to ski.
49:41.070 --> 49:41.350
[SPEAKER_05]: Wow.
49:42.231 --> 49:47.517
[SPEAKER_05]: It started with falling all the time and then slowly improved a little bit.
49:48.037 --> 49:51.042
[SPEAKER_00]: Have you seen, has he got video footage of this anywhere?
49:51.062 --> 49:54.447
[SPEAKER_05]: I think I can find it.
49:54.547 --> 49:58.854
[SPEAKER_05]: I have a book here, you can make a book on this song on robotics.
49:58.874 --> 50:02.659
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm not sure if I can find it in short term.
50:03.421 --> 50:06.906
[SPEAKER_00]: If you do one day, I'd love to say that.
50:07.607 --> 50:16.761
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I will ask him to give me this because this is the only way.
50:17.180 --> 50:22.445
[SPEAKER_05]: movements like skin can be learned, just by trying falling.
50:22.966 --> 50:23.506
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, it.
50:23.826 --> 50:25.248
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, just like how we learn.
50:26.269 --> 50:27.290
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, yes, yes.
50:28.170 --> 50:34.056
[SPEAKER_05]: On the other hand, it's very interesting to see kids how they ski.
50:34.076 --> 50:34.917
[SPEAKER_05]: I have three kids.
50:35.678 --> 50:36.939
[SPEAKER_05]: Now I have grand daughters.
50:38.580 --> 50:39.241
[SPEAKER_05]: They are all ski.
50:40.682 --> 50:45.567
[SPEAKER_05]: You gave them skis, let them enjoy and that's it.
50:46.154 --> 50:52.284
[SPEAKER_05]: And they will learn how to ski without interfering from ski teachers or whatever.
50:52.324 --> 50:52.785
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
50:53.506 --> 50:55.249
[SPEAKER_05]: They will do it in their own way.
50:55.650 --> 50:55.870
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
50:56.311 --> 50:58.094
[SPEAKER_05]: But they have all in common.
50:58.695 --> 50:59.075
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
50:59.096 --> 51:03.162
[SPEAKER_05]: Kids will always ski with their center of gravity backwards.
51:06.408 --> 51:07.830
[SPEAKER_05]: But they're not because they are afraid.
51:08.131 --> 51:08.491
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
51:09.433 --> 51:11.436
[SPEAKER_05]: But because this is the position,
51:11.804 --> 51:21.016
[SPEAKER_05]: that releases, so it makes the skill unstable, so if you can make the turn, whatever, if you want, whenever, if you want.
51:21.477 --> 51:22.438
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay.
51:23.639 --> 51:37.137
[SPEAKER_00]: So the center of gravity behind that sweet spot makes the skill unstable, so that's the easiest point to manipulate the skill from, is that
51:37.690 --> 51:40.495
[SPEAKER_05]: The skill will turn the fastest for every.
51:40.655 --> 51:45.062
[SPEAKER_05]: So first of all, they are not using power or technique, but a little bit white.
51:45.082 --> 51:46.024
[SPEAKER_05]: So yes, yeah.
51:46.465 --> 51:49.991
[SPEAKER_05]: Pizza, yes, they call it an American.
51:50.291 --> 51:50.532
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
51:51.714 --> 51:58.585
[SPEAKER_05]: OK. And by balancing, a set of gravity between two skis, you get, and say,
51:58.902 --> 52:08.558
[SPEAKER_05]: possibility of steering, but you always backwards, just move the center of gravity left or right and that's it, it will work.
52:08.578 --> 52:10.861
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, okay.
52:11.342 --> 52:24.403
[SPEAKER_05]: So when you see all types of skiers, all types of skit techniques, it's very hard to discover what is the common point of everything.
52:24.974 --> 52:33.482
[SPEAKER_05]: That's why it took me snowboarding to discover the basic idea what is going on.
52:34.070 --> 52:43.379
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, he's on skis on two legs, it's just to complicate, get up, so yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely I can understand that.
52:44.199 --> 53:00.955
[SPEAKER_00]: So now, so back to this, I guess, talking about human movement on skis again, because something, I guess, I've found is stepping off skis.
53:01.424 --> 53:07.395
[SPEAKER_00]: People that end up coming to see me because they're in pain, so physical pain and knee or whatever.
53:08.237 --> 53:22.504
[SPEAKER_00]: Often the variability and options that their body has to move has kind of been reduced down from what it used to be before they were injured.
53:22.484 --> 53:40.889
[SPEAKER_00]: and so they're kind of stuck in not having as many options to move and then that is resulted in the body giving them pain signals because perhaps it's it's wearing out a particular movement pattern or it's what the body's worried that it's going to wear it out or something and so damage is occurring.
53:41.610 --> 53:48.880
[SPEAKER_00]: So back on snow my something I guess I like to think about or perhaps
53:49.130 --> 54:02.269
[SPEAKER_00]: maybe theorizes that really good scares have every single joint and option movement available in in in all dimensions of movement to their disposal disposal.
54:02.329 --> 54:06.615
[SPEAKER_00]: So then whatever situation comes up, whether it's.
54:06.595 --> 54:29.181
[SPEAKER_00]: a bump in the snow or a change in snow texture and surface so that so the maybe the ski starts skidding or accelerating in front of them or whatever it is, they have all the options which will then they will learn the most efficient one to rebalance or re-counterline, align themselves to get the ski working again.
54:29.262 --> 54:36.450
[SPEAKER_05]: Would you agree with
54:36.953 --> 54:37.874
[SPEAKER_05]: learn something.
54:38.695 --> 54:47.204
[SPEAKER_05]: I can say from my own experience, I didn't study from the binding of the soul and binding level.
54:47.224 --> 55:06.083
[SPEAKER_05]: I didn't study everything like I have just some ideas, but I can say from, say, it's from my personal experience, comparing to my wife, we are skiing together,
55:06.586 --> 55:07.527
[SPEAKER_05]: It's no type.
55:08.368 --> 55:18.857
[SPEAKER_05]: Sometimes it's just changing the inclination for 5 degrees towards the other way of the sun and we will change this now completely.
55:20.359 --> 55:22.701
[SPEAKER_05]: After all those years, I can't read it.
55:23.021 --> 55:23.302
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
55:24.943 --> 55:28.647
[SPEAKER_05]: I can ski like I say quite good.
55:29.227 --> 55:35.513
[SPEAKER_05]: She's a skier but she cannot read the snow.
55:36.185 --> 55:40.170
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's a very interesting part of experience.
55:40.190 --> 55:53.488
[SPEAKER_05]: So when you're skiing, when the ski slope, you see what kind of snow is coming, what is going on in your prepared, because you have made your share of repetitions.
55:53.508 --> 56:01.078
[SPEAKER_05]: And good skiers, they see, they know they are prepared in advance, what will happen.
56:01.480 --> 56:14.747
[SPEAKER_05]: Because the reaction time of human bodies is, I said, 0.1 seconds, so from input to output, if you are, as a habit, at least, but if you are normal person, it's 0.3.4 seconds.
56:15.809 --> 56:19.236
[SPEAKER_05]: If you can read in advance, what will happen?
56:19.722 --> 56:22.164
[SPEAKER_05]: So you want to interact with each other?
56:22.184 --> 56:22.405
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
56:23.245 --> 56:24.006
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's interesting.
56:24.126 --> 56:38.980
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I've said this to one person before in the podcast, but there is a physiotherapist out there, and a neuroscientist who talks about one of the main functions of our brain is prediction.
56:39.781 --> 56:46.067
[SPEAKER_00]: So like what you're talking there, it's learning to predict
56:46.047 --> 56:54.056
[SPEAKER_00]: because that makes you feel some level of, I guess, certainty and confidence to do or face whatever is coming towards you.
56:54.096 --> 56:57.900
[SPEAKER_00]: So that story just said, I guess, illustrates that point.
56:58.421 --> 57:06.470
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, she's not confident in predicting almost, or she can't predict very well these changes and what will happen.
57:06.490 --> 57:13.978
[SPEAKER_05]: I have an interesting, very interesting story on this prediction.
57:14.617 --> 57:24.571
[SPEAKER_05]: we have a young dog now in our house and in wintertime he was going out to pee.
57:24.591 --> 57:44.218
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, more or less and it was wet and when he was going back upstairs it was slippery and it fell hurt himself badly between legs and I went and next time he went out to pee, it was wet
57:44.873 --> 57:51.361
[SPEAKER_05]: bottom of stairs, he stopped thinking a little bit and then he went up backwards.
57:53.184 --> 57:53.885
[SPEAKER_05]: He predicted.
57:54.165 --> 57:54.445
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
57:54.946 --> 57:55.186
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
57:55.747 --> 58:01.975
[SPEAKER_05]: And he logically concluded that if he has turned downstairs then it will not be slippery.
58:02.336 --> 58:02.576
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
58:02.736 --> 58:04.819
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
58:05.159 --> 58:08.704
[SPEAKER_05]: So, and it took him one week.
58:08.971 --> 58:11.474
[SPEAKER_05]: of going backwards to turn again.
58:12.395 --> 58:13.396
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah.
58:15.258 --> 58:16.820
[SPEAKER_05]: We have all predicted.
58:16.840 --> 58:18.702
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's right.
58:18.722 --> 58:23.487
[SPEAKER_05]: We can conclusions and the logical, more or less logical conclusions.
58:23.888 --> 58:25.690
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, based on that experience.
58:26.611 --> 58:27.472
[SPEAKER_05]: Unexperienced.
58:27.492 --> 58:27.672
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
58:27.792 --> 58:38.404
[SPEAKER_05]: And one of the things about experience in when I was working in alarm the second time, it was in late 90s,
58:38.705 --> 58:45.053
[SPEAKER_05]: We were working with Nordica Company, which was at that time owned by Benetom.
58:45.334 --> 58:49.699
[SPEAKER_05]: And they hired a guy who was working for Piazza before.
58:52.082 --> 58:57.689
[SPEAKER_05]: And once I mentioned this is because of our experience.
58:58.831 --> 59:08.323
[SPEAKER_05]: And if you had a perfect answer to that, you said, if you are claiming experience, then you are proving you don't have a clue.
59:09.198 --> 59:12.103
[SPEAKER_05]: And when you think about it, that's very true.
59:12.404 --> 59:12.645
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
59:13.707 --> 59:18.355
[SPEAKER_05]: So, if experience shows this and this and this, you don't have a clue what is going on.
59:18.856 --> 59:19.157
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
59:19.878 --> 59:20.079
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
59:21.621 --> 59:26.851
[SPEAKER_05]: Because I guess it's, because I had some business, it's key business, it's close to that.
59:27.292 --> 59:27.953
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
59:27.973 --> 59:28.174
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
59:28.434 --> 59:29.637
[SPEAKER_05]: It's based on the experience.
59:30.017 --> 59:30.218
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
59:30.679 --> 59:30.919
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
59:31.996 --> 59:33.019
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, interesting.
59:34.002 --> 59:38.334
[SPEAKER_00]: So Yuri, I was just thinking, are there any more topics?
59:38.695 --> 59:41.764
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there a couple of more questions I was thinking of perhaps asking you about?
59:41.784 --> 59:47.440
[SPEAKER_00]: No, if there's anything you thought would be interesting to bring up, perhaps from.
59:47.538 --> 01:00:17.376
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, from working the factory, from the developing prototypes, any kind of funny stories or any really bad accidents that, you know, through trialing something or whatever, there's anything you thought would be worth bringing up.
01:00:17.879 --> 01:00:19.922
[SPEAKER_05]: Now, this is an anecdote.
01:00:20.422 --> 01:00:20.703
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
01:00:21.504 --> 01:00:37.725
[SPEAKER_05]: So, we have, in a learning, late eighties, we had a race or girl, she was a world champion in Slavon, in a very, she won, you know, Mathias Red, just top skier.
01:00:38.587 --> 01:00:40.329
[SPEAKER_05]: You don't get much better than that.
01:00:40.830 --> 01:00:41.170
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
01:00:41.926 --> 01:00:47.997
[SPEAKER_05]: And she complained about skis, they are not good, they are not good, not good, not good, not good and so on.
01:00:48.017 --> 01:00:53.668
[SPEAKER_05]: And we made prototypes, six, seven pairs of prototypes and she went testing.
01:00:55.571 --> 01:01:04.508
[SPEAKER_05]: And a service man who was experienced and he knew about those problems.
01:01:05.467 --> 01:01:18.606
[SPEAKER_05]: He gave her one pair of skin, second pair, third pair and she returned, not good, not good, not good, and then she took the old pair, which was not good at the beginning.
01:01:21.991 --> 01:01:33.567
[SPEAKER_05]: Said, this is something else, this is very new pair, we tried something special on this, and then she passed it, returned, and that's it, that's what I want.
01:01:35.302 --> 01:01:48.459
[SPEAKER_00]: So that had to be to her, it almost had to be someone put all this effort in and it was special and they're really making an effort until they made enough effort for her She wasn't gonna say any ski was good.
01:01:49.621 --> 01:02:04.701
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah humans Yeah Because we are not measuring we are feeling yeah
01:02:05.508 --> 01:02:17.923
[SPEAKER_00]: So Yuri, one thing I was going to ask, did you delve into ski boot, theory, or production development research?
01:02:18.444 --> 01:02:21.307
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, did you have much to do with that at all?
01:02:21.387 --> 01:02:23.069
[SPEAKER_00]: Have you taken any interest in that?
01:02:24.531 --> 01:02:25.192
[SPEAKER_05]: Actually, no.
01:02:25.853 --> 01:02:30.418
[SPEAKER_05]: I was in, I say, working with,
01:02:31.090 --> 01:02:36.537
[SPEAKER_05]: company which produces keyboards, but I was not involved in the keyboard development at that time.
01:02:37.337 --> 01:02:49.752
[SPEAKER_05]: I was completely different parts of making foot scanner, 3D foot scanner and software for matching shoes to fit.
01:02:50.373 --> 01:03:00.405
[SPEAKER_05]: It was interesting project, but nothing to do with
01:03:00.689 --> 01:03:23.727
[SPEAKER_05]: whatever it comes out of the mold, that's about it, and there I learned something, I say, also about feelings, that you cannot fit proper size of the footwear to women.
01:03:24.618 --> 01:03:30.023
[SPEAKER_05]: Look, we'll always remain.
01:03:30.043 --> 01:03:33.206
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, well, I can't talk about the show might be.
01:03:34.006 --> 01:03:35.007
[SPEAKER_05]: Look, look at it.
01:03:35.067 --> 01:03:36.028
[SPEAKER_00]: Look, we'll prevail.
01:03:38.310 --> 01:03:53.123
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, because have you heard of David McFale or the guy from Whistler who has a blog about, he talks a lot about ski boot setup and have you heard of him?
01:03:54.537 --> 01:04:10.259
[SPEAKER_05]: No, and I will follow these keyboards a lot, one of the reasons is when I was testing professionally, I learned that if I want to feel the difference between skis, I have to unbuck it.
01:04:11.801 --> 01:04:20.713
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, interesting, that yeah, you've got a lot more feeling or sensory feedback with birds
01:04:21.284 --> 01:04:22.025
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:04:22.045 --> 01:04:23.487
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:04:23.507 --> 01:04:32.100
[SPEAKER_05]: Of course, I'm doing a lot of tour skiing and tour ski boots are not as rigid as Alpine ski boots.
01:04:32.120 --> 01:04:47.202
[SPEAKER_05]: So, I learned from tour skiing that I have to arm back to my racing boots to really feel otherwise you have the connection between your lag and ski.
01:04:47.783 --> 01:04:48.304
[SPEAKER_05]: It's
01:04:48.588 --> 01:05:05.027
[SPEAKER_00]: to steal the minor differences in his blog he is trying to get across to people is that most
01:05:05.007 --> 01:05:21.042
[SPEAKER_00]: or maybe not necessarily ski boots, ski boots fit, custom orthotics sometimes, certain liners, just that the interface is disrupted and altered and sort of deadened through.
01:05:21.376 --> 01:05:41.874
[SPEAKER_00]: through a ski boot and he sort of has developed, he went, he did some prototype work to develop a new type of ski boot that interfered less and allowed the human nervous system to sense more what's going on between the snow, the ski and the skier.
01:05:42.815 --> 01:05:51.383
[SPEAKER_00]: And in his work it showed up that there was
01:05:51.363 --> 01:05:56.412
[SPEAKER_00]: high-tending into the postural muscles that adjusted that for and after balance.
01:05:57.556 --> 01:06:16.465
[SPEAKER_00]: And I guess to me coming back to your point of that to make a ski work and to carve is the ability to kind of keep finding that sweet spot and know how to move kind of maybe I either side of it to adjust or break it away when needed and lock it back on when needed.
01:06:17.106 --> 01:06:24.036
[SPEAKER_00]: So then your ski boot ideally would not interfere with how you sense that.
01:06:25.568 --> 01:06:36.763
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I didn't think a lot about that, but I see a problem with, let's say, two week connection.
01:06:37.524 --> 01:06:51.643
[SPEAKER_05]: So you have different snow types, you have different snow conditions, and this also influences how this interface or connection of your body to your equipment works.
01:06:52.315 --> 01:06:55.659
[SPEAKER_05]: The problem is only in very hard I.C.
01:06:55.979 --> 01:07:09.976
[SPEAKER_05]: surface, then, so racers, they have two ways of dealing with this situation of when you get this skid slip vibration.
01:07:11.918 --> 01:07:20.128
[SPEAKER_05]: One is, as I say, to make the skid
01:07:20.615 --> 01:07:37.341
[SPEAKER_05]: to buckle all the way to squeeze your feet inside as much as possible, and then as a result with your muscles, they have a lot of muscles, it will be made.
01:07:37.361 --> 01:07:48.799
[SPEAKER_05]: Make your body from your foot to your
01:07:48.897 --> 01:08:00.527
[SPEAKER_05]: system and this will change the frequency of vibration and that's how they deal the system.
01:08:00.968 --> 01:08:02.049
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
01:08:02.069 --> 01:08:04.231
[SPEAKER_05]: You add mass to the system.
01:08:04.291 --> 01:08:11.477
[SPEAKER_05]: So if you unbuckle, then there's just a mass of ski and binding vibrating and skibbut.
01:08:11.797 --> 01:08:12.058
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
01:08:12.198 --> 01:08:15.661
[SPEAKER_05]: And you're like your foot inside is loose.
01:08:15.681 --> 01:08:18.263
[SPEAKER_05]: So it will go off.
01:08:18.800 --> 01:08:30.798
[SPEAKER_05]: their own way, but the racers they do add mess by adding this stiff connection, yes, buckling up and locking muscles of their legs.
01:08:31.439 --> 01:08:42.495
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, so would you say that almost comes under then the like impulse and impulse or
01:08:42.475 --> 01:08:50.983
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, force of one object into another can be changed through the stiffness of the material.
01:08:51.443 --> 01:08:59.570
[SPEAKER_00]: So as in if you hit, like for instance, as an analogy, if you try and hit a nail, a metal nail with a rubber mallet.
01:08:59.891 --> 01:09:12.482
[SPEAKER_00]: So the material being rubber, as you hit it, some of the energy goes into the rubber because that material is not stiff.
01:09:12.462 --> 01:09:23.654
[SPEAKER_00]: Whereas if you put the same force with a metal hammer against the metal nail, the connection will go through and it will make the nail penetrate through the softer wood.
01:09:24.375 --> 01:09:28.079
[SPEAKER_00]: So is it almost like saying the same thing with the ski race?
01:09:28.119 --> 01:09:34.165
[SPEAKER_00]: Are they stiffening the connection with the equipment to make it penetrate?
01:09:35.387 --> 01:09:40.292
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, but I would make a little bit different
01:09:41.133 --> 01:09:47.464
[SPEAKER_05]: use a metal hammer in both cases, one once with a rubber hand.
01:09:48.165 --> 01:09:49.287
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
01:09:49.307 --> 01:09:49.567
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:09:49.587 --> 01:09:57.660
[SPEAKER_05]: So because it transfers between outside world and your system is the same, so it's still edge.
01:09:58.241 --> 01:09:58.422
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
01:09:59.143 --> 01:10:06.415
[SPEAKER_05]: I see surface, but in one case the force is from the interaction
01:10:06.952 --> 01:10:09.556
[SPEAKER_05]: a different way than in another case?
01:10:09.776 --> 01:10:10.677
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay.
01:10:11.458 --> 01:10:24.596
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you have to be, if you hit with the full metal hammer, no rubble rubber handle, the person just needs to be stronger to be able to deal with that?
01:10:25.677 --> 01:10:26.098
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yes.
01:10:27.119 --> 01:10:35.811
[SPEAKER_05]: So it's larger mass involved, otherwise you must separate masses of your
01:10:36.753 --> 01:10:41.117
[SPEAKER_05]: from the mess of your hand and the other handle.
01:10:41.458 --> 01:10:49.506
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yeah, yeah, from because of the vibration, yeah, vibrations are very complicated.
01:10:49.586 --> 01:10:53.830
[SPEAKER_05]: So I don't think that I understand of vibration.
01:10:53.970 --> 01:10:58.274
[SPEAKER_05]: Maybe I'm scratching the surface a little bit of a mutation.
01:10:58.314 --> 01:11:05.241
[SPEAKER_05]: But otherwise, the whole way, guys in the aerospace industry, they understand this
01:11:05.491 --> 01:11:09.241
[SPEAKER_05]: it's so called model analyzes, it's very complicated.
01:11:09.441 --> 01:11:10.003
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:11:10.584 --> 01:11:11.928
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:11:12.249 --> 01:11:19.367
[SPEAKER_05]: And they have a, let's say, media which is air, it's a little bit simpler than snow.
01:11:19.728 --> 01:11:20.049
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
01:11:20.550 --> 01:11:20.711
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:11:21.192 --> 01:11:21.393
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:11:21.874 --> 01:11:22.335
[SPEAKER_00]: Totally.
01:11:22.788 --> 01:11:27.463
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well, I've really enjoyed chatting with you, Yuri.
01:11:28.044 --> 01:11:36.190
[SPEAKER_00]: It's been quite fascinating, helped to sort of clarify some things and simplify some things.
01:11:36.743 --> 01:11:40.247
[SPEAKER_00]: and then also confuse some things for me too, which is being good.
01:11:41.048 --> 01:11:47.637
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's really, it's just made me think, and yeah, really appreciate your expertise and knowledge on the subject.
01:11:47.997 --> 01:11:51.462
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, thanks very much for your time.
01:11:51.502 --> 01:11:59.532
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if there's any other parting, oh, that would be my last parting thing, because a lot of skin structures, listen to this.
01:12:00.473 --> 01:12:04.438
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you think, as a final kind of takeaway note,
01:12:04.418 --> 01:12:06.080
[SPEAKER_00]: what would it be you'd say?
01:12:06.120 --> 01:12:30.190
[SPEAKER_00]: They should understand, because I think a lot of the time skin structures perhaps confused students through just talking about technique without letting the student understand that really skiing is more about how the ski turns through its interaction with the snow like we talked about in the beginning.
01:12:30.575 --> 01:12:36.263
[SPEAKER_00]: So would it be getting them to understand that, as opposed to getting always bogged down in technique?
01:12:37.485 --> 01:12:42.332
[SPEAKER_05]: I would understand ski teachers as their business.
01:12:42.953 --> 01:12:47.881
[SPEAKER_05]: So they have to be more clever than their pupils.
01:12:49.803 --> 01:12:59.097
[SPEAKER_05]: Their students, because and let's say making us think more complicated we'll add to their business.
01:13:01.439 --> 01:13:05.284
[SPEAKER_05]: frankly speaking, you don't need a skin instructor.
01:13:06.166 --> 01:13:30.940
[SPEAKER_05]: If you are young enough, but at late, at late and early, you can go out and start skin on the beginner's skin slow learn by yourself and any skin or every type of skin is good type of skin as long as you don't
01:13:31.544 --> 01:13:40.220
[SPEAKER_05]: in nature learning new things by yourself, or by others, but don't over complicate.
01:13:42.824 --> 01:13:55.527
[SPEAKER_05]: This is, I believe, skin instructions are too complicated, but understand them, they must make money, they must make living out of it.
01:13:56.114 --> 01:14:02.742
[SPEAKER_05]: So they learn this and this and this and this and this and this a lot of stuff which is not necessary.
01:14:04.344 --> 01:14:13.274
[SPEAKER_05]: So mainly I would suggest that ski instructions should be as simple as possible.
01:14:14.075 --> 01:14:16.297
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we definitely agree with that.
01:14:17.499 --> 01:14:22.965
[SPEAKER_05]: And because formally I don't have any education in skiing,
01:14:23.485 --> 01:14:30.020
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't have any license of skin structure and any certificate that I know how to ski.
01:14:30.682 --> 01:14:32.005
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:14:32.025 --> 01:14:33.809
[SPEAKER_05]: And I can ski.
01:14:33.849 --> 01:14:35.613
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
01:14:35.633 --> 01:14:40.785
[SPEAKER_05]: And at the end point, I could change the weight of skiing in Houston.
01:14:41.086 --> 01:14:42.630
[SPEAKER_05]: 20 or 20 years ago.
01:14:43.311 --> 01:14:43.933
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:14:45.216 --> 01:14:45.316
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:14:45.336 --> 01:14:47.340
[SPEAKER_05]: Without understanding skin instructions.
01:14:47.701 --> 01:14:47.942
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
01:14:48.523 --> 01:14:49.425
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:14:49.445 --> 01:14:49.686
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
01:14:49.766 --> 01:14:50.628
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's my point.
01:14:50.969 --> 01:15:00.090
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, because I've definitely found it just a very valuable thing to just always put, you know, the fact that it's.
01:15:00.070 --> 01:15:15.306
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, how this ski interacts with the snow is just probably the most important thing to understand and keep in the back of your mind at all times and sort of yeah.
01:15:15.586 --> 01:15:22.133
[SPEAKER_05]: The following back to Robert, which learned how to ski, you learn by experience.
01:15:22.713 --> 01:15:22.913
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
01:15:23.654 --> 01:15:24.936
[SPEAKER_05]: You can't learn by touring.
01:15:25.336 --> 01:15:25.596
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:15:26.397 --> 01:15:26.597
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
01:15:27.859 --> 01:15:28.339
[SPEAKER_05]: Excellent.
01:15:28.977 --> 01:15:34.559
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, well, I will let you get on with your day, but thanks again, Yuri.
01:15:35.182 --> 01:15:42.953
[SPEAKER_00]: If you just hang on the line, I'll just finish the recording now, but yeah, I'm sure the listeners will have really enjoyed that, so yeah, thanks very much.

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