The Competition Paradox: When Winning Hurts Your Team

WEBVTT
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This is going to be a very tough episode because neither one of us is competitive.
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Not at all.
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Let's see, we have a national championship tap dancer.
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We have someone that devoted thirty years of his life to soccer at sometimes a national level.
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No. Not competitive.
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Two business owners.
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Right.
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We just we're just here for the ride.
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Yeah, yeah.
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No, there's all the time.
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Right?
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Yeah.
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Um, whether to be competitive or whether to build collaboration in your business or how to turn those dials to figure out what that proper mixture is.
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That is what we're talking about this week, correct?
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Yes, I hope so.
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See, I put another C word in there for you.
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Thank you.
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Correct.
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I figured you'd want that.
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Stay tuned.
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She's the CEO.
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He's the marketing and operations guy.
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If it's broken, you need the business fix.
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I see clarity, all the things.
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Competitive culture.
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It's gonna be fun.
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I think we can have a competition.
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About how many things an alliteration can we do?
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I bet I would win.
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Just saying.
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Oh, I know you would win.
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That's like.
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It's like you challenging me to a tap dance competition.
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Let's do it.
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Yeah, I can do the William Tell overture with my feet.
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The first like like the.
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I can do all of that.
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That is a hell of a way to start the episode.
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I can, I can all the way to I can.
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Um, that's interesting.
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Little known fact about Krissy, my pithy Demas.
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Personally identifying fact that I don't mind sharing pithy Demas.
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You're welcome.
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William Tell Overture.
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What's sad is we're going to finish recording this episode and you'll be like, show me.
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And I'm going to have to.
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And that's fine.
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I can no, no no no no I'm not no, I think you know me well enough, Krissy.
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I am not going to say show me today.
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It's going to be when we're on a stage somewhere.
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Correct?
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Correct.
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That is a wonderful.
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I am smart enough to know that I need to hold on to that card until it's the right time to play it.
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Oh, I can't wait.
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It's gonna be a fun time.
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Yeah.
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Don't don't play those cards too early.
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Uh, those are the things that, uh.
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Yeah, we will be somewhere, I guarantee.
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Speaking at some wonderful engagement.
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Did you know Chrissy can be Chrissy?
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Go ahead and show him.
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Because when I say it that way, it's tough for you to deny that.
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Yeah.
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It is.
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I'll be like, okay, yeah, this is everyone's gonna be looking like this is part of the show.
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Game on.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And I'm gonna, I'm just gonna hope it's gonna be when you are wearing the most awkward shoes possible.
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Probably.
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Note to self, always wear clicky shoes.
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Okay.
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Correct.
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And the reason why I'm gonna do that is because I'm competitive.
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Yes.
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Not in the slightest that I feel like this has already come off the rails.
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And the best way, um, for me, I, we, I talk all the time.
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Success is a shared thing.
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You talk clarity is kindness.
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We both kind of allude to those things.
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Like the thing that I always worry about in a business is when you say success is a shared thing, have you completely neutered competition in the business and making sure that it's not like I, I hate it when I see in businesses and I know we've both seen this, think of it as a bicycle race And everyone's on their bicycles and they're all pedaling to the same point.
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And it seems like when things get too competitive, you've got the one person that is going to stick a stick through the spokes of everyone else's bike.
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They're not doing it.
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I mean, that's how they want to win.
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That's their competitive advantage.
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They have to win.
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They're going to take other people down.
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They aren't going to bring other people up because they worry that they're not going to win.
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So that is that is the thing that I always worry about when I'm building like competition.
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So you I know you've got some alpha personalities that you've worked with that you've managed, um, which is always the, the, I mean, look, we're competitive.
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Yeah, it's, it's just part of the nature.
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It's why we want to get ahead.
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It is, um, how do you prevent that high competition environment from turning into a complete lack of psychological safety where people like, I mean, you see people in their cars.
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Yeah.
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Um, well, let's make an example.
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If you have someone at work that rides a motorcycle.
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They don't take their helmet off when they walk in the building.
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They're just afraid.
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Correct.
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How do you prevent that from happening?
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Yeah.
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So I think leaders often will confuse intensity with insecurity.
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Yes.
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So you can absolutely have a high performing competitive team with alpha personalities.
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But if it's not structured correctly, and if you are not maintaining a good environment, it can flip from performance to protection really fast.
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Yep.
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So you've got to be careful.
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So I think about it through what I would call the three C's of competitive culture.
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Because again, if we're going to have, we're going to have things they need alliteration and we have a C theme.
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We've had, we've had that theme for the last couple of episodes.
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So three C's of, of competitive culture, competition, collaboration and confidence.
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So competition, competition isn't the problem.
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Misaligned competition is the problem.
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So yes, I love does that make sense?
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Yes, one hundred percent.
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It's just misaligned.
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So when the game becomes more important than the mission, people stop optimizing for the business and they start optimizing for themselves.
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And that's a gamification trap.
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So where the scoreboard matters more than the outcome, that's not what we want to do within our organizations.
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We want to make sure that the outcome and we're living within the values of the organization as we're coming up with those outcomes.
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So that's competition.
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Second is collaboration, and that is if your competition doesn't require collaboration in an organization, I think you're already lost.
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That's my personal opinion.
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I wholeheartedly agree, and I know that there are some people in a high driven sales environment, like we don't agree with you.
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I'm like, and that's why people leave your organization all the time.
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You have got to have collaboration there because in a healthy system, the best players don't win alone.
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They win through the team.
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So there's a reason why success is a shared thing for you.
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And teamwork is a core value for our organization.
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It's about collaboration.
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So if people are hiding mistakes, they're hiding information.
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They're avoiding asking for help because they don't want to look weak.
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Yep.
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You don't have competition.
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You don't have collaboration.
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You just have flat out fear.
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You have the people wearing the people wearing the helmets they're walking in, or they're not even getting out of their car.
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They're texting of like, hey, I'm gonna work remotely.
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And you're like, you're in the parking lot, like I'm working remotely.
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It happens.
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There's airbags in here, I feel safe, I feel safer.
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And then that other key is confidence.
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And this is really where psychological safety comes in.
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And we have to remember that psychological safety is not about being soft.
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It's about being secure enough to say a few things.
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I miss that I need help, there's a better way.
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So when people feel safe to tell the truth, they have the confidence to be able to speak up and say those things.
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They get better, faster.
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And if your team is afraid to look weak, they were going to make your business weak.
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Yes, one hundred percent.
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I mean, if it's okay for people to not have the answer, It's okay to not have a like, to not be able to solve it immediately.
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It's okay to ask for help.
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And if you have a whole bunch of alphas and nobody wants to ask for help, heaven help you.
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Good luck with your SOPs.
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Exactly.
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I may have seen that go south once or twice.
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I got this.
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Yes.
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It's not good.
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No, it truly isn't.
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So. I mean, how does one turn into the other?
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So how do you get from, like, individual excellence and not create those silos?
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Correct.
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Okay.
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So I would say you're talking about, um, incentive design becoming your culture design.
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So because often we talk about how we ought to design incentives.
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People, people have to have targets.
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We have to give them a reason to want to do the job.
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Yes.
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Okay.
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People don't just do what you say.
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They are going to do what you reward.
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So we've got to make sure we shape the path.
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So if you only reward individual output.
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You are always going to get individual protection.
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Yep.
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So if you're rewarding group output you're going to get the team moving forward together.
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So let's go back to those same three C's.
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So competition yes we reward excellence.
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High performers should win.
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But the definition of winning has to include how they win, not just what they produce.
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How did you get there.
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No cheating did you get or stepping on everybody else?
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Did you get there by tripping Bob in accounting?
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No, we don't do that.
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That's not how you win a marathon.
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No, it's my by stepping on every other runner.
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Did you get there by talking to the person that does the lead gen so that you're the only person that's getting the leads generated?
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That's that's cheating.
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It's how did we get there?
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Did we get there together?
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So then there's collaboration and you have to build collaboration into the scoreboard.
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Yes, into the dashboard.
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So if someone hits their numbers but creates friction for the rest of the team, that's not a win.
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That's a problem.
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So the other one is like, I closed the sale.
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Well, you close the sale, but this was not a really good qualified lead.
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They They didn't have good expectations and we only kept the customer for two months when normally we keep them for twenty four.
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That's not a win.
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So if you hit your numbers but you're creating friction for the handoff, that's a problem.
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And I think Josh, you model this constantly in your organization.
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I mean you're sharing success.
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It's success together.
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We're doing all the things how we hand off how we do these things.
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And I mean, at a UI and clarity, we talk about like teamwork is that core value.
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So again, you model what you mandate and you're baking it into your organization.
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So collaboration has to be part of the framework of what you're doing.
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And then let's go back to that last C, which is confidence.
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And you know, when people trust that helping someone else won't hurt their standing, they start sharing information, sharing shortcuts, sharing wins.
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So that's the other part is you've really got to make sure as we're collaborating, it helps us move forward and we're building confidence.
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We're building cadence.
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And you know, you helping someone else is helping is is helping the organization, which is truly helping you.
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So it becomes that cyclical.
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And when you do that, the organization gets faster.
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So if your managers are hoarding resources, that's not a personality issue.
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It's an incentive issue.
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What are you doing to create an environment where they feel like they have to hold on to their fiefdom?
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So people protect what you measure.
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Measure.
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I love how you put that.
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They do, whether it's a silo or a fiefdom.
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Their people are protective.
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Like you get resource aggressive.
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I mean, we talk about it with animals.
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Like, are they resource aggressive?
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No. They've got to know that, you know, it's shared resources.
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There are more things coming around.
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You get more time, more attention, more work together.
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Yep.
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Yeah.
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Yep.
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Like how does like, how does competition become comparison though?
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Because I, I see in so many cases where people are like, I, I remember when I was in sales at summit racing equipment.
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Mhm.
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Um, they put your, they just, they didn't put names, Yeah, but they put employee numbers down.
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Yeah.
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And they put the sales for the month down.
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Oh, right.
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Okay.
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So who's who's selling?
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And you can look and it doesn't take but one or two months to figure out who has what employee number.
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Yeah.
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They may as well just put the names there.
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Well, and that's it.
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Like you don't need to if you have a small sales team.
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I don't think you need to de-identify the information.
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No, it's the conversation around, hey, Josh has all the sales for the last quarter.
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Josh, what are you doing to make it work so well?
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Like, and if you're like, well, it's just, it's just who I am.
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We're like, no, tell us more.
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Tell us what you're doing.
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Tell us like, how are you generating your leads?
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Are you getting the same leads that everybody else is getting?
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And you're like, maybe.
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And so maybe you're taking more leads than somebody, or maybe you've got a good network, like what is going on?
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Like, let's share the conversation.
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So competition turns into comparison.
00:14:18.893 --> 00:14:20.526
I would say you've got a few red flags around it.
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There's that leaderboard obsession.
00:14:21.826 --> 00:14:22.093
Yeah.
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Who's in charge.
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We had that.
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Yeah.
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That you have anxiety around rankings.
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Oh my gosh.
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I'm number five out of five.
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Oh no. It's like survivor.
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I didn't want to be out of the top if I was ever out of the top ten.
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I was losing my ever loving mind.
00:14:35.460 --> 00:14:35.660
Yeah.
00:14:35.660 --> 00:14:38.426
And then you've got people celebrating wins less and comparing more.
00:14:38.426 --> 00:14:40.259
So it's like, oh, well, you close the sale.
00:14:40.259 --> 00:14:42.493
Yeah, but I didn't close ten sales like Bob.
00:14:42.493 --> 00:14:47.293
I mean, like there's when you get to that space, you know, that competition has turned into comparison.
00:14:47.293 --> 00:14:51.360
And that's when people stop focusing on the real work and they start focusing on each other.
00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:54.293
And then you lose all of that.
00:14:54.293 --> 00:14:55.093
Oh, one hundred percent.
00:14:55.093 --> 00:14:56.259
You lose direction.
00:14:56.259 --> 00:15:01.526
The other one, I would say like with collaboration, there's an opposite to collaboration too.
00:15:01.526 --> 00:15:03.126
It can become concealment.
00:15:03.126 --> 00:15:03.560
Yes.
00:15:03.560 --> 00:15:07.160
So and I think that's one of the biggest red flags for an organization.
00:15:07.160 --> 00:15:15.860
And this is when people they stop sharing best practices, they stop helping their teammates and they stop raising issues because they don't want to lose their edge.
00:15:15.860 --> 00:15:18.126
So when you're like, I don't, I don't want to lose my edge.
00:15:18.126 --> 00:15:23.326
So then you've crossed that line of where competition is unhealthy.
00:15:23.326 --> 00:15:27.426
And then in that case, we've got confidence where confidence becomes caution.
00:15:27.426 --> 00:15:33.259
And so when people start playing safe instead of playing to win, you've lost that psychological safety in your organization.
00:15:33.259 --> 00:15:41.826
So people immediately they stop taking risks, they stop speaking up and they challenge decisions because they're protecting themselves.
00:15:41.826 --> 00:15:45.160
They're no longer looking at the organization as something where we all win together.
00:15:45.160 --> 00:15:45.493
Yep.
00:15:45.493 --> 00:15:46.893
Collaboration is died.
00:15:48.126 --> 00:15:51.926
We are we are competing to the Death becomes the Hunger Games.
00:15:51.926 --> 00:15:52.826
It's not what you want.
00:15:52.826 --> 00:15:57.692
That pizza party you had was the funeral for collaboration.
00:15:57.692 --> 00:16:00.126
You buying pizza for that top sales month?
00:16:00.126 --> 00:16:01.826
That was the funeral for collaboration.
00:16:01.826 --> 00:16:07.426
Well, and I would say too, it's something that's when you have an environment of constant competition.
00:16:07.426 --> 00:16:13.360
Your top performer of today can become your top flight risk tomorrow.
00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:22.093
And that's because, you know, I think often in high competition environments, you are a it is a high risk for burnout.
00:16:22.093 --> 00:16:29.293
And so if you've got constant competition at one hundred and ten percent, ten percent capacity, it doesn't create champions.
00:16:29.293 --> 00:16:30.460
It really creates that burnout.
00:16:30.460 --> 00:16:33.293
And then people are just, I mean, let's, let's move out.
00:16:33.293 --> 00:16:37.293
So what is healthy competition in my mind?
00:16:37.293 --> 00:16:38.626
Would you like to know those?
00:16:38.626 --> 00:16:39.593
Of course.
00:16:40.725 --> 00:16:43.660
So I mean, healthy competition should sharpen your team.
00:16:43.660 --> 00:16:45.493
It shouldn't split the team.
00:16:45.493 --> 00:16:45.725
Yep.
00:16:45.725 --> 00:16:46.093
Right.
00:16:46.093 --> 00:16:49.326
So comparison instead of competition.
00:16:49.326 --> 00:16:51.026
Concealment instead of collaboration.
00:16:51.026 --> 00:16:52.660
No, no. No caution instead of confidence.
00:16:52.660 --> 00:16:53.626
Those are the things that you don't want.
00:16:53.626 --> 00:16:56.026
You want competition, collaboration and confidence.
00:16:56.026 --> 00:17:00.593
So if you don't have a high performance culture, you have a culture that's slowly turning on itself.
00:17:00.593 --> 00:17:04.026
So you ask yourself, who do we have?
00:17:04.026 --> 00:17:08.692
Are we comparing ourselves to everybody else when we're in the team meeting and the sales team meeting?
00:17:08.692 --> 00:17:08.893
Yeah.
00:17:08.893 --> 00:17:14.960
If you're hearing the chatter about comparison, okay, that's like, okay, ding ding ding.
00:17:14.960 --> 00:17:18.393
You may have an issue if you have people that are concealing their best practices.
00:17:18.393 --> 00:17:19.326
How did you do that?
00:17:19.326 --> 00:17:20.492
Ancient Chinese secret.
00:17:20.492 --> 00:17:21.725
No, that doesn't work that way.
00:17:21.725 --> 00:17:25.225
Like, tell me what you did.
00:17:25.225 --> 00:17:26.559
How are you closing this?
00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:34.826
Like you got a. You've been working on this lead for almost two years, and you got a million dollar revenue to this organization.
00:17:34.826 --> 00:17:36.026
How did you do it?
00:17:36.026 --> 00:17:36.593
Yeah.
00:17:36.593 --> 00:17:40.792
They're like, well, I took them like donuts one day.
00:17:40.792 --> 00:17:42.859
And then I made sure that I invited them to this event.
00:17:42.859 --> 00:17:45.826
Like how like give us the cadence, talk about it.
00:17:45.826 --> 00:18:01.660
And then I would say the last one is really important around the confidence of your team to be able to share not just resources, but share ideas of not this is what is working, but hey, this is what isn't one hundred percent because yeah, like it's interesting.
00:18:01.660 --> 00:18:07.292
There's a couple of other marketing firms I told you about the one earlier that we're talking to because we're like, hey, what's working?
00:18:07.292 --> 00:18:08.225
What's not?
00:18:08.225 --> 00:18:10.725
Why should I spend money on stuff that's not working?
00:18:10.725 --> 00:18:11.059
Exactly.
00:18:11.059 --> 00:18:12.192
We're trying to be collaborative.
00:18:12.192 --> 00:18:13.292
Let's all figure this out.
00:18:13.292 --> 00:18:14.725
Yeah, let's figure this out together.
00:18:14.725 --> 00:18:15.259
Yeah.
00:18:15.259 --> 00:18:19.625
So how does internal competition impact the actual machine?
00:18:19.625 --> 00:18:20.460
Oh, that's a great one.
00:18:20.460 --> 00:18:20.692
Yeah.
00:18:20.692 --> 00:18:25.660
Does it make the workflows faster or does it create friction and shadow workflows that kill ROI?
00:18:25.660 --> 00:18:27.492
I'm excited about shadow workflows.
00:18:27.492 --> 00:18:27.992
Shadow work.
00:18:27.992 --> 00:18:31.960
I mean, I alluded to some of that too with like the, the coaching correct thing.
00:18:31.960 --> 00:18:38.725
That's how they like people start to, oh, well, the actual SOP is in a dusty old HR file.
00:18:38.725 --> 00:18:42.660
What we do on the floor is quite a bit different.
00:18:42.660 --> 00:18:51.826
Um, to me, the number one thing that so many people look at is they offer an incentive and they're like, here's the incentive to do better.
00:18:51.826 --> 00:18:57.393
And they don't realize that it one hundred percent undermines their mission or their core values.
00:18:57.393 --> 00:18:59.293
I see it all the time.
00:18:59.293 --> 00:18:59.893
Oh, yeah.
00:18:59.893 --> 00:19:03.425
They, I mean, we talked when we talked about the mission statement and how no one cares.
00:19:03.425 --> 00:19:06.026
That's the number one way that no one cares.
00:19:06.026 --> 00:19:08.293
Hey, here's our mission statement.
00:19:08.293 --> 00:19:10.293
Here's how you're incentivized.
00:19:10.293 --> 00:19:12.625
They are one hundred and eighty degrees from each other.
00:19:12.625 --> 00:19:15.460
Um, but we offer you pizza.
00:19:17.393 --> 00:19:19.660
And unlimited PTO that we never approve.
00:19:19.660 --> 00:19:20.326
Correct.
00:19:20.326 --> 00:19:20.826
Correct.
00:19:20.826 --> 00:19:21.593
Correct.
00:19:21.593 --> 00:19:26.160
So to me, the thing I love, the rising tide raises all ships.
00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:27.226
Success as a shared thing.
00:19:27.226 --> 00:19:29.526
All those all those hunky dory stories.
00:19:29.526 --> 00:19:31.026
To me, the non-zero sum scoring.
00:19:31.026 --> 00:19:32.192
So designing competition.
00:19:32.192 --> 00:19:35.526
So one person's high score does not come at the expense of someone else's.
00:19:35.526 --> 00:19:42.726
Yes, you can do that in sales as long as you have boundaries, as long as you have those items in place.
00:19:42.726 --> 00:19:46.759
Once again, if I win the operational, you need to make it so.
00:19:46.759 --> 00:19:51.259
If I win, the operational debt down the line should decrease.
00:19:51.259 --> 00:19:52.226
It can't get worse.
00:19:52.226 --> 00:19:52.793
Mhm.
00:19:52.793 --> 00:19:55.660
Um, that's the only way that you can win.
00:19:55.660 --> 00:19:58.625
The next step is to me is quality score.
00:19:58.625 --> 00:20:04.460
Um cleanliness of handoff, um, quality of work, things of that nature.
00:20:04.460 --> 00:20:16.726
So we've, I mean, we realized, like when I look at like, let's say YouTube thumbnails, um, if someone wants to bring me a new design on that and it is, it looks like my five year old niece did it.
00:20:16.726 --> 00:20:18.793
I know, I know.
00:20:18.793 --> 00:20:22.860
Just because you brought me four new designs this month, I'm not going to reward that.
00:20:22.860 --> 00:20:24.860
Because once again, the quality wasn't there.
00:20:24.860 --> 00:20:35.326
Now, if you bring me the high quality, if you bring something that's got something new to it, if it if you bring me something that's got maybe there's an animation to it, something of that effect, then yes.
00:20:35.326 --> 00:20:43.259
Okay, I want to reward that quality, but I want to reward that and making sure that it's not taking away from the output.
00:20:43.259 --> 00:20:45.860
Also, you got to make sure it's balanced.
00:20:45.860 --> 00:20:54.360
Um, I have a great example of this is when I was at Summit Racing Equipment, I was, as I said, one of the top salesmen consistently.
00:20:54.360 --> 00:21:00.660
They would look at my phone and like my phone numbers and they'd be like, Josh, you're not taking enough time with the client.
00:21:00.660 --> 00:21:02.226
And I'm like, okay.
00:21:02.226 --> 00:21:07.526
They're like, your talk time's way too fast because I know what they need and that's why they call me.
00:21:07.526 --> 00:21:08.759
Correct.
00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:13.226
Um, but they just said because I was outside of the center of the bell curve.
00:21:13.226 --> 00:21:14.360
I was a problem.
00:21:14.360 --> 00:21:17.559
And I'm like, no, no, no, I've got stuff organized for this, I do.
00:21:17.559 --> 00:21:19.625
And they're like, you're not helping the customer.
00:21:19.625 --> 00:21:21.425
And I'm like, well, wait a minute here.
00:21:21.425 --> 00:21:25.226
I got the most letters of commendation sent to the president.
00:21:25.226 --> 00:21:26.526
This ask the customers.
00:21:26.526 --> 00:21:28.192
Sounds like they like me, right?
00:21:28.192 --> 00:21:29.026
They did.
00:21:29.026 --> 00:21:34.326
They because they, they sent like the one month I got five people writing handwritten letters.
00:21:34.326 --> 00:21:42.992
This is twenty five years ago, handwritten letters to the president of the company saying, Josh gave me great service, but yet I wasn't doing it right.
00:21:42.992 --> 00:21:46.259
So once again, that was that competitive thing where they just weren't looking at it.
00:21:46.259 --> 00:21:46.992
Right.
00:21:46.992 --> 00:22:01.992
Um, to me, the, the thing that I look at with the like from an SOP thing, looking at that in terms of you can make it competitive in terms of who's working on things to refine them, who's making things to be better.
00:22:01.992 --> 00:22:10.526
Now, granted, this doesn't need to be a scoreboard like, hey Bob, congratulations, you've changed for SOPs this month.
00:22:10.526 --> 00:22:12.593
That's not what we want to do either.
00:22:12.593 --> 00:22:15.393
What we want to do is we want to incentivize.
00:22:15.393 --> 00:22:18.026
And this is where some of the competition comes in.
00:22:18.026 --> 00:22:20.393
We want to incentivize the return on investment for it.
00:22:20.393 --> 00:22:24.526
How have you removed optional debt from someone else?
00:22:24.526 --> 00:22:27.893
Now that hey, Bob, you did that four times last month.
00:22:27.893 --> 00:22:28.925
That's amazing.
00:22:28.925 --> 00:22:29.460
Yeah.
00:22:29.460 --> 00:22:32.925
Um, that's a way like Bob made everyone's job easier.
00:22:32.925 --> 00:22:33.692
Yes.
00:22:33.692 --> 00:22:34.093
I'm.
00:22:34.093 --> 00:22:38.593
I'm pretty good about rewarding that and making sure that that's the thing.
00:22:38.593 --> 00:22:44.026
Um, like the other piece to that is if you have that high performer.
00:22:44.026 --> 00:22:48.793
I was in grade school, I was the kid that got my homework done before the teacher was done assigning it.
00:22:48.793 --> 00:22:49.460
Same.
00:22:50.992 --> 00:22:57.593
Um, if you have that worker that does that and they help someone else, yes.
00:22:57.593 --> 00:23:04.692
You have to reward that just as much, if not more than what you reward the competitive aspect of it.
00:23:04.692 --> 00:23:09.526
Because once again, that is showing that the collaboration has Value.
00:23:09.526 --> 00:23:15.726
Yes, it's too easy to reward the competitive sides and not the collaborative side.
00:23:15.726 --> 00:23:20.692
So you've got to make sure that it that it works to incentivize both of those.
00:23:20.692 --> 00:23:27.093
Um, the other thing that I mean, we referred to the, the collaboration, the collaborative piece.
00:23:27.093 --> 00:23:30.360
Yeah, I saw a competition and it was out of the fear.
00:23:30.360 --> 00:23:32.326
It's out of the lack of confidence.
00:23:32.326 --> 00:23:37.793
Also, when I was at a certain automotive retailer, it would be during the spring.
00:23:37.793 --> 00:23:39.026
The phone's been ringing off the hook.
00:23:39.026 --> 00:23:40.793
There'd be a ten minute hold time.
00:23:40.793 --> 00:23:41.226
Yeah.
00:23:41.226 --> 00:23:43.593
Marketing's like, look at what we have done.
00:23:43.593 --> 00:23:45.360
Look at our brilliant sales.
00:23:45.360 --> 00:23:47.726
Is too stupid to be able to pick up the phone.
00:23:47.726 --> 00:23:48.860
Sales is at fault.
00:23:48.860 --> 00:23:49.125
Why?
00:23:49.125 --> 00:23:50.925
Our sales numbers aren't up.
00:23:50.925 --> 00:23:56.226
Then come fall, when everyone's shoving their car back in the garage and no one's buying parts for it.
00:23:56.226 --> 00:23:57.326
It's all about seasons.
00:23:57.326 --> 00:23:59.692
The phones are dead and sales is going.
00:23:59.692 --> 00:24:04.360
Those idiots in marketing can't like, how am I supposed to make a living off of this?
00:24:04.360 --> 00:24:08.093
Uh, that that is where you have that competitive piece.
00:24:08.093 --> 00:24:09.893
And it's that protectionist piece.
00:24:09.893 --> 00:24:10.259
Yeah.
00:24:10.259 --> 00:24:12.925
They they aren't willing to work together.
00:24:12.925 --> 00:24:16.093
To me, you have to be able to find that.
00:24:16.093 --> 00:24:18.492
Hey, look, here's what we're seeing.
00:24:18.492 --> 00:24:20.326
Is there anything you guys can do with this?
00:24:20.326 --> 00:24:23.026
Yeah, there has to be that conversation to it.
00:24:23.026 --> 00:24:26.692
Otherwise, you end up with one hoarding all the information.
00:24:26.692 --> 00:24:28.893
Like we're going to make marketing look bad.
00:24:28.893 --> 00:24:29.425
Exactly.
00:24:29.425 --> 00:24:34.526
Or we're going to make sales look bad because we we have to protect ourselves.
00:24:34.526 --> 00:24:36.893
Um, once again, this is the stick in the spokes.
00:24:36.893 --> 00:24:37.293
Yeah.
00:24:37.293 --> 00:24:39.893
Um, I'm not I don't need to ride faster.
00:24:39.893 --> 00:24:42.660
I just need to make sure that their bicycle has a flat tire.
00:24:42.660 --> 00:24:43.860
Yeah, I question.
00:24:43.860 --> 00:24:44.326
Yeah.
00:24:44.326 --> 00:24:49.526
So I was having this debate with somebody and I'd really like your take on it because you're the sales and marketing person.
00:24:49.526 --> 00:24:55.259
Um, should sales report to marketing, marketing report to sales or should they always be adjacent?
00:24:55.259 --> 00:24:57.625
Um, they should report to one person.
00:24:57.625 --> 00:24:58.293
Okay.
00:24:58.293 --> 00:25:02.826
Um, the way that I look at that is they should report to operations.
00:25:02.826 --> 00:25:03.125
Nice.
00:25:03.125 --> 00:25:08.125
Because that is the one who has the like sales is going to do sales things.
00:25:08.125 --> 00:25:09.925
Sales people are naturally competitive.
00:25:09.925 --> 00:25:10.759
They should be.
00:25:10.759 --> 00:25:11.326
Yeah.
00:25:11.326 --> 00:25:15.425
If you do not have a naturally competitive sales person, you probably have the wrong salesperson.
00:25:17.125 --> 00:25:17.660
Yeah.
00:25:17.660 --> 00:25:18.860
Did you get that sale?
00:25:18.860 --> 00:25:20.160
No, but it's okay.
00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:21.492
They're really nice, right?
00:25:21.492 --> 00:25:22.925
They're really nice person.
00:25:22.925 --> 00:25:24.360
I met the other salesperson.
00:25:24.360 --> 00:25:25.026
They were great.
00:25:25.026 --> 00:25:26.826
They deserved it, right?
00:25:26.826 --> 00:25:28.492
No, no, they did not.
00:25:30.425 --> 00:25:31.726
Kill, kill kill.
00:25:31.726 --> 00:25:33.526
They had a better presentation than I did.
00:25:33.526 --> 00:25:36.093
So they just know that is not the salesperson you want.
00:25:36.093 --> 00:25:38.492
They need to answer to market or they need to answer to operations.
00:25:38.492 --> 00:25:47.326
I like that because operations is the one that I mean, is going to lead over marketing, saying, hey, sales is telling me we need to do this.
00:25:47.326 --> 00:25:51.559
And then once again, hey, sales marketing is saying that they're trying this.
00:25:51.559 --> 00:25:53.059
Yeah, you need one.
00:25:53.059 --> 00:25:58.925
If you have that person at the head of that, they're hearing both sides of the story.
00:25:58.925 --> 00:26:03.526
Otherwise, you get one side of the story and you get people just shouting their side of the story.
00:26:03.526 --> 00:26:03.893
Yeah.
00:26:03.893 --> 00:26:07.492
Um, it turns into it turns into a political debate almost.
00:26:07.492 --> 00:26:10.293
You just have to people agree with each other, not listening.
00:26:10.293 --> 00:26:17.226
I agree, I was yeah, it was a conversation about, you know, I think our, our head marketer is going to report our fractional CMO is going to report to head of sales.
00:26:17.226 --> 00:26:19.059
I'm like, that doesn't sound like a good idea.
00:26:19.059 --> 00:26:22.259
No, that's, that's a horrible sounds like a recipe for failure.
00:26:22.259 --> 00:26:29.726
That's they need they both need to report to the same person and they need to talk to that person at the same time.
00:26:29.726 --> 00:26:31.726
They need to be in the room together when they're talking.
00:26:31.726 --> 00:26:32.326
Yes.
00:26:32.326 --> 00:26:33.160
Um, I like that.
00:26:33.160 --> 00:26:34.692
Especially if they're if there's.
00:26:34.692 --> 00:26:37.125
Once you have the trust built, fine, it's different.
00:26:37.125 --> 00:26:39.425
But initially they need to be in the room talking.
00:26:39.425 --> 00:26:40.660
We were just talking about other stuff.
00:26:40.660 --> 00:26:43.293
Like we're not going to say anything that I wouldn't say to the person.
00:26:43.293 --> 00:26:43.692
Yeah.
00:26:43.692 --> 00:26:46.759
Um, until you have that trust built between sales and marketing.
00:26:46.759 --> 00:26:47.326
Okay.
00:26:47.326 --> 00:26:56.692
You have to, you have to be that, um, to me, like the, the thing that I also see in marketing is, well, that was my idea.
00:26:56.692 --> 00:27:04.660
When it goes well, of course, all that I can think of is there's the office addressed this beautifully, you know.
00:27:04.660 --> 00:27:05.960
You know what I'm talking about.
00:27:05.960 --> 00:27:07.793
The golden ticket episode.
00:27:07.793 --> 00:27:12.259
Um, this goes like, oh my gosh, this is amazing.
00:27:12.259 --> 00:27:14.360
This is all mine.
00:27:14.360 --> 00:27:17.192
Oh my God, this is going to cost us a lot of money.
00:27:17.192 --> 00:27:19.160
I don't know who did it.
00:27:19.160 --> 00:27:20.593
I see that all the time.
00:27:20.593 --> 00:27:23.393
Um, I see that all the time in companies.
00:27:23.393 --> 00:27:30.726
And it's like, look, I mean, assign stuff to people, but make sure that everyone is invested in its success.
00:27:30.726 --> 00:27:36.492
Um, or I mean, you're going to end up with that competition, you're going to end up with.
00:27:36.492 --> 00:27:41.826
And I've seen it so many times, other marketers sticking sticks in the spokes.
00:27:41.826 --> 00:27:42.860
Um, that's the analogy.
00:27:42.860 --> 00:27:44.992
I'm just going to, I'm stuck, I like it.
00:27:44.992 --> 00:27:45.893
That's a good one.
00:27:45.893 --> 00:27:47.826
Um, yeah, I mean, it's just what it is.
00:27:47.826 --> 00:27:51.893
You see people walking around tripping each other and you're like, like we're trying to go to the same place here.
00:27:51.893 --> 00:27:53.660
We're all carrying the same thing.
00:27:53.660 --> 00:27:58.360
Um, the other thing that I try and look at is the shared success metric.
00:27:58.360 --> 00:28:05.593
Instead of looking at who did the most move the competition to who removed the most bottlenecks for everyone else.
00:28:05.593 --> 00:28:09.026
I alluded to that earlier, but how can you?
00:28:09.026 --> 00:28:12.093
How can you make this the best for everyone?
00:28:12.093 --> 00:28:13.059
Best team player.
00:28:13.059 --> 00:28:13.360
Yeah.
00:28:13.360 --> 00:28:16.893
And once again, it can be removing bottlenecks for yourself.
00:28:16.893 --> 00:28:17.526
Awesome.
00:28:17.526 --> 00:28:18.526
That counts.
00:28:18.526 --> 00:28:22.793
That one hundred percent counts because no one knows your job better than you do.
00:28:22.793 --> 00:28:40.226
But finding ways to do that, the, the to me, there's this consistency thing that like creating a contest around a system's health instead of a short term like, um, who can sell the most this week?
00:28:40.226 --> 00:28:40.860
Yeah.
00:28:40.860 --> 00:28:45.026
That, like, those are the recipes for the toxic toxic disasters.
00:28:45.026 --> 00:28:45.393
Yes.
00:28:45.393 --> 00:28:45.960
They are.
00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:55.360
Um, when you've got that because once again, you've got like in these, the, the prime example of this Girl Scout cookies.
00:28:55.360 --> 00:28:58.026
Yes, I totally agree.
00:28:58.026 --> 00:29:00.192
It's really wonderful organization.
00:29:00.192 --> 00:29:01.793
Great they are.
00:29:01.793 --> 00:29:02.625
But when.
00:29:02.625 --> 00:29:07.293
If you want to see a toxic sales culture, look to the Girl Scouts.
00:29:08.425 --> 00:29:10.960
I would say the parents of the Girl Scouts.
00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:11.425
Right.
00:29:11.425 --> 00:29:12.393
Six of one, half dozen.
00:29:12.393 --> 00:29:13.692
Another.
00:29:13.692 --> 00:29:14.360
But that.
00:29:14.360 --> 00:29:15.360
That is one hundred percent.
00:29:15.360 --> 00:29:23.992
It. The thing that I always worry about when it comes to this competitive culture is if it is this non-stop competitive driving culture.
00:29:23.992 --> 00:29:26.259
When you were tap dancing.
00:29:26.259 --> 00:29:26.660
Yeah.
00:29:26.660 --> 00:29:27.893
You ever get burnt out?
00:29:27.893 --> 00:29:28.393
Oh, gosh.
00:29:28.393 --> 00:29:28.893
Yeah.
00:29:30.360 --> 00:29:31.160
Burnt out.
00:29:31.160 --> 00:29:31.960
Injured.
00:29:31.960 --> 00:29:33.360
Like, I don't want to do this anymore.
00:29:33.360 --> 00:29:33.593
Yeah.
00:29:33.593 --> 00:29:34.192
Yeah.
00:29:34.192 --> 00:29:34.793
Same.
00:29:34.793 --> 00:29:35.492
Same with soccer.
00:29:35.492 --> 00:29:41.160
And it was because, I mean, granted, there's there's certain people.
00:29:41.160 --> 00:29:47.425
I think you and I are in a minority of people that are like, okay, I see what the goal is and I'm driven enough to get there.
00:29:48.625 --> 00:29:50.160
A lot of business owners are.
00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:53.793
Yeah, ninety eight percent of their employees are not.
00:29:53.793 --> 00:29:55.226
That's why they don't own the business.
00:29:55.226 --> 00:29:56.192
Correct.
00:29:56.192 --> 00:30:04.759
And it like when you are pushing people that hard to be competitive, you are pushing them towards that ragged edge of burnout.
00:30:04.759 --> 00:30:13.860
Well, and I would say too, as you set targets, if you have a freak of nature in your organization in a position, I know where you're going.
00:30:13.860 --> 00:30:17.393
Do not set the targets where that person is the only person that can hit.
00:30:17.393 --> 00:30:18.425
Oh, well, that's normal.
00:30:18.425 --> 00:30:23.360
Like you, just like you sometimes have to you differentiate between mean and median.
00:30:23.360 --> 00:30:23.960
Yes.
00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:38.759
And it's a, I mean, the reason I mean, we're talking about like, whether it's public education or anything, you have to figure out, you know, what is the right target for the average or for the ideal person that you are putting in the role, not the person that can?
00:30:38.759 --> 00:30:43.559
I mean, you have one person that can sell ten million dollars in sales in a year.
00:30:43.559 --> 00:30:45.259
That's fantastic.
00:30:45.259 --> 00:30:47.960
The average is actually five hundred thousand, right?
00:30:47.960 --> 00:30:50.860
So you've got and then you're like, I don't understand why nobody can compare this person.
00:30:50.860 --> 00:30:53.259
And it's like, then you're frustrated.
00:30:53.259 --> 00:30:58.925
You've got to understand when you have something that is extremely rare.
00:30:58.925 --> 00:31:02.625
When it is rare, and then how you incentivize that can sometimes be different too.
00:31:02.625 --> 00:31:07.593
So that's the other part is like, you've got to be willing to say like everybody's, everybody's a widget.
00:31:07.593 --> 00:31:08.526
No they're not.
00:31:08.526 --> 00:31:12.160
You've got to be able to figure that out when you get confused as to how to deal with that.
00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:16.826
If you get an extremely high performer and you're like, I don't know how to incentivize them, call an HR consultant.
00:31:16.826 --> 00:31:18.125
They'll help you.
00:31:18.125 --> 00:31:19.960
You know, one, I know a couple.
00:31:19.960 --> 00:31:22.625
It's a few smattering.
00:31:22.625 --> 00:31:26.759
That being said, smattering love that word.
00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:31.826
Um, something that I want to like talk back and forth about here.
00:31:31.826 --> 00:31:36.726
One way that I like to set up competition is against themselves.
00:31:36.726 --> 00:31:38.826
So instead of against other people in the organization.
00:31:38.826 --> 00:31:44.425
So they're tempted to stick a stick in Bob's spokes, um, say that five times fast.
00:31:44.425 --> 00:31:47.326
And instead of them tempted to do that.
00:31:47.326 --> 00:31:48.059
Yes.
00:31:48.059 --> 00:31:53.160
What, like do you like the hey, let's compete against who you were last month.
00:31:53.160 --> 00:31:56.793
Yes, I like progress over person.
00:31:56.793 --> 00:31:58.226
I think it's really important.
00:31:58.226 --> 00:32:02.125
So when people are competing against each other, someone has to lose.
00:32:02.125 --> 00:32:02.593
Yes.
00:32:02.593 --> 00:32:05.793
But when they're competing against themselves, everybody gets to win.
00:32:05.793 --> 00:32:06.992
And not that we have to be.
00:32:06.992 --> 00:32:07.992
Yes, I am a millennial.
00:32:07.992 --> 00:32:08.625
Shut up.
00:32:10.992 --> 00:32:12.925
I knew where you were going.
00:32:12.925 --> 00:32:14.026
I'm married to a Gen Xer.
00:32:14.026 --> 00:32:15.793
I saw the look like.
00:32:15.793 --> 00:32:16.925
Stop it.
00:32:16.925 --> 00:32:19.860
Um. It's not everybody gets a trophy.
00:32:19.860 --> 00:32:23.160
It's creating an environment where everybody wants to move forward faster.
00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:23.726
And that's it.
00:32:23.726 --> 00:32:24.992
You.
00:32:24.992 --> 00:32:33.059
I don't I, I do believe that there are winners, but I do not believe as an organization that there has to only be one winner.
00:32:33.059 --> 00:32:35.726
I believe that the whole organization as a whole can move forward.
00:32:35.726 --> 00:32:37.460
So progress over person.
00:32:37.460 --> 00:32:41.226
So you got to shift from peer pressure to personal progress.
00:32:41.226 --> 00:32:41.925
It's interesting.
00:32:41.925 --> 00:32:46.192
The two things that I like with that is we are competing against other businesses.
00:32:46.192 --> 00:32:46.625
Yes.
00:32:46.625 --> 00:32:47.793
Not against ourselves.
00:32:47.793 --> 00:32:48.259
Exactly.
00:32:48.259 --> 00:32:53.759
So if you can do it as a better than last week, Great.
00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:54.125
That is.
00:32:54.125 --> 00:32:55.093
That is a huge thing.
00:32:55.093 --> 00:32:55.559
Yes.
00:32:55.559 --> 00:32:57.793
Because like to me, okay, I lift weights.
00:32:57.793 --> 00:33:01.492
If I constantly compared myself with other people in the gym.
00:33:01.492 --> 00:33:02.360
Oh gosh.
00:33:02.360 --> 00:33:03.793
Same right.
00:33:03.793 --> 00:33:07.726
Um, it would just, I would, I would, you would find me typically in the gym crying.
00:33:07.726 --> 00:33:09.992
Um, that's not the case.
00:33:09.992 --> 00:33:17.492
I have over time and granted, I feel like I would make some other people cry too, which is like, that's the good feeling.
00:33:17.492 --> 00:33:18.026
Yes.
00:33:18.026 --> 00:33:23.360
But we don't like you don't want to have to manage all of that within your business.
00:33:23.360 --> 00:33:26.326
No, you just want people to feel better than they did last week.
00:33:26.326 --> 00:33:30.093
So that way your business is better than it was last week.
00:33:30.093 --> 00:33:30.393
Yes.
00:33:30.393 --> 00:33:34.360
I mean, you talk on your on your podcast one percent better, one percent better.
00:33:34.360 --> 00:33:35.793
What's the one thing?
00:33:35.793 --> 00:33:40.726
And if you're talking about like, if the, if you've created a scoreboard where it is, we got to beat somebody else.
00:33:40.726 --> 00:33:44.093
We got to beat Joe in the team, then you're going to create secrecy.
00:33:44.093 --> 00:33:45.660
And that scoreboard beat last month.
00:33:45.660 --> 00:33:48.393
I mean, when we're doing it all together you get sharing.
00:33:48.393 --> 00:33:51.460
I am totally fine if we are.
00:33:51.460 --> 00:33:54.026
We are mortal enemies with our competition.
00:33:54.026 --> 00:33:55.925
Yes, I'm totally okay with that.
00:33:55.925 --> 00:33:56.960
We call them Satan.
00:33:56.960 --> 00:33:58.026
We call them other names.
00:33:58.026 --> 00:33:59.460
We do the thing like we are.
00:33:59.460 --> 00:34:03.992
We are cutthroat at a.y and clarity internally and how we talk about our competition, right?
00:34:03.992 --> 00:34:06.026
We'll also collaborate with some of them occasionally.
00:34:06.026 --> 00:34:07.893
Same, same, same.
00:34:07.893 --> 00:34:10.992
But when it comes to each other, it's how do we help each other?
00:34:10.992 --> 00:34:11.393
Yep.
00:34:11.393 --> 00:34:12.592
How do we work together?
00:34:12.592 --> 00:34:19.226
I mean, we have we have cut the people in our organization who were brilliant jerks and just said the I am the only person that can do it.
00:34:19.226 --> 00:34:19.592
Right?
00:34:19.592 --> 00:34:19.960
Yep.
00:34:19.960 --> 00:34:20.460
Yeah.
00:34:20.460 --> 00:34:21.925
So here's the next one.
00:34:21.925 --> 00:34:24.025
And I want to say this correctly.
00:34:24.025 --> 00:34:27.659
Sales versus operations.
00:34:30.793 --> 00:34:43.460
In this corner weighing in at four thousand five hundred and sixty two pounds, we have sales department in this corner weighing at four thousand eight hundred and ninety eight pounds.
00:34:43.460 --> 00:34:45.692
We have the operations department.
00:34:45.692 --> 00:34:48.192
Let's get ready to rumble.
00:34:48.192 --> 00:34:50.059
How do you keep that from happening?
00:34:50.059 --> 00:34:51.625
Oh, okay.
00:34:52.625 --> 00:34:54.092
You weren't ready for that, were you?
00:34:56.692 --> 00:35:02.860
Okay, let's let's bring it back to three shared anchors.
00:35:02.860 --> 00:35:03.425
Three things.
00:35:03.425 --> 00:35:05.725
So expectation.
00:35:05.725 --> 00:35:08.225
What are we promising the client?
00:35:08.225 --> 00:35:09.492
Execution.
00:35:09.492 --> 00:35:13.892
What can we actually deliver consistently and experience.
00:35:13.892 --> 00:35:16.525
So what does success feel like for the customer?
00:35:16.525 --> 00:35:24.059
Because I know that I mean sales versus operations, it is the classic internal tug of war, but it's not really a people problem.
00:35:24.059 --> 00:35:25.025
It's a priority problem.
00:35:25.025 --> 00:36:11.889
So if you are answering expectation, execution and experience and you have those clearly defined, I think it takes away that internal tug of war between sales and operations.
00:36:11.889 --> 00:36:16.555
And if you have clearly defined SOPs, I'm going to steal what you do, clearly defined SOPs.
00:36:16.555 --> 00:36:18.689
You don't have this problem one hundred percent.
00:36:18.689 --> 00:36:26.755
What I was going to say with that, it's to me, if sales has things that is required of them in order to complete the sale.
00:36:26.755 --> 00:36:27.689
Guess what?
00:36:27.689 --> 00:36:29.222
If you've done this right.
00:36:29.222 --> 00:36:32.489
Operations doesn't have a whole heck of a lot to gripe about.
00:36:32.489 --> 00:36:37.489
And if operations does have something to gripe about, they can go back and say.
00:36:37.489 --> 00:36:42.089
You didn't do section three, part A dot one.
00:36:42.089 --> 00:36:43.289
Yes it can.
00:36:43.289 --> 00:36:44.555
It's defined well.
00:36:44.555 --> 00:36:50.155
And I would say too, as you define it, operations defines it for sales and sales does it.
00:36:50.155 --> 00:36:54.055
Operations doesn't get to play Lucy with the football and say, well you didn't do it right.
00:36:54.055 --> 00:36:56.555
If I am doing it exactly the way that you defined it.
00:36:56.555 --> 00:36:57.089
Correct.
00:36:57.089 --> 00:37:01.055
You don't get to complain to me if you want to modify it, let's have a conversation.
00:37:01.055 --> 00:37:04.955
Does it sound like I had this conversation a couple of weeks ago between sales and operations?
00:37:04.955 --> 00:37:06.189
I'm like, why are you mad at them?
00:37:06.189 --> 00:37:07.189
Because they handed this off.
00:37:07.189 --> 00:37:10.622
I'm like, they did it exactly the way that you asked them to, right?
00:37:10.622 --> 00:37:18.555
Oh, it may be difficult, it may be uncomfortable, it may not look pretty, but they did exactly what you wanted and they they followed your defined process.
00:37:18.555 --> 00:37:21.222
If you don't like the process, it was yours.
00:37:21.222 --> 00:37:23.589
You need to change it because they're just asking.
00:37:23.589 --> 00:37:26.155
Tell us how you want us to handle this customer off?
00:37:26.155 --> 00:37:27.089
It's not in the system.
00:37:27.089 --> 00:37:27.889
It is in the system.
00:37:27.889 --> 00:37:28.755
It's in that screen.
00:37:28.755 --> 00:37:31.289
Oh, they didn't do the email.
00:37:31.289 --> 00:37:32.222
Yeah, they did do the email.
00:37:32.222 --> 00:37:32.989
They didn't do.
00:37:32.989 --> 00:37:35.389
It's like you forgot what your own SOP was.
00:37:36.455 --> 00:37:37.555
I try not to do that.
00:37:37.555 --> 00:37:39.489
That's embarrassing when I do that.
00:37:39.489 --> 00:37:40.555
Oh, damn.
00:37:40.555 --> 00:37:41.822
Yeah, I forgot about that.
00:37:41.822 --> 00:37:43.222
Oh, yeah.
00:37:43.222 --> 00:37:44.189
They did it exactly right.
00:37:44.189 --> 00:37:47.155
If you don't like it, let's talk about it.
00:37:47.155 --> 00:37:50.555
And what needs to change does.
00:37:50.555 --> 00:37:54.589
And this is this is a question that I've got a short like a story too.
00:37:54.589 --> 00:37:55.222
Yeah.
00:37:55.222 --> 00:37:58.555
But no, no no, no. So I want to I want to hear your point first to it.
00:37:58.555 --> 00:37:58.855
Okay.
00:37:58.855 --> 00:38:06.222
The sales dashboard that I talked about, like at summit where it was just all the employee numbers and like, yay, nay.
00:38:06.222 --> 00:38:09.255
Oh, I don't, I don't have a problem with sales dashboards.
00:38:09.255 --> 00:38:12.755
I have a problem with how we interpret them.
00:38:14.222 --> 00:38:16.555
So I mean, data doesn't create the anxiety.
00:38:16.555 --> 00:38:17.655
It's interpretation.
00:38:17.655 --> 00:38:19.155
Interpretation creates anxiety.
00:38:19.155 --> 00:38:23.322
So I would say you've got like three P's of performance data.
00:38:23.322 --> 00:38:28.922
So purpose, perspective, psychological safety because we've got to keep saying psychological safety.
00:38:28.922 --> 00:38:31.522
So purpose why are we measuring this perspective?
00:38:31.522 --> 00:38:32.755
How should this be interpreted?
00:38:32.755 --> 00:38:36.422
And then psychological safety is is it safe to not be at the top yet?
00:38:36.422 --> 00:38:40.222
Like, is it okay that we're still trying to figure some of these things out?
00:38:40.222 --> 00:38:47.522
Um, I make a as soon as I saw this question, I was like, I went to the dorm and fallacy.
00:38:47.522 --> 00:38:55.989
Oh yeah, that Rory Sutherland talks about a lot where he says all these fancy consulting firms come in and say, oh, look, your doorman's sixty five thousand dollars a year.
00:38:55.989 --> 00:39:04.522
We get rid of them, we install an automatic door, and then suddenly you're you're like, oh, look, you're saved sixty five thousand dollars after the door is paid for itself.
00:39:04.522 --> 00:39:08.222
And you don't realize that now you've got vagrants walking in your top.
00:39:08.222 --> 00:39:10.922
Customers are no longer being greeted at the door.
00:39:10.922 --> 00:39:12.922
All your packages are getting stolen, right?
00:39:12.922 --> 00:39:14.622
Stuff is getting stolen.
00:39:14.622 --> 00:39:17.755
Like, like I said, there's homeless people living in the lobby.
00:39:17.755 --> 00:39:24.789
Um, you the problem is there's so many dashboards like that don't tell the whole story.
00:39:24.789 --> 00:39:26.089
They tell a number.
00:39:26.089 --> 00:39:33.155
And the problem is, is people like once again, people saw my talk time and said, Josh, you're not helping the customers.
00:39:33.155 --> 00:39:36.455
And I'm like, no, no, no, no.
00:39:33.155 --> 00:39:36.455
Look at the full story here.
00:39:36.455 --> 00:39:40.722
Like my surveys have all come back as the dude's awesome.
00:39:40.722 --> 00:39:43.089
Um, why, why are we talking about the.
00:39:43.089 --> 00:39:43.355
Yeah.
00:39:43.355 --> 00:39:46.455
So that to me is the, the big piece with that.
00:39:46.455 --> 00:39:46.589
Yeah.
00:39:46.589 --> 00:39:47.822
You have to narrate the numbers.
00:39:47.822 --> 00:39:49.355
Yep, one hundred percent.
00:39:49.355 --> 00:39:56.355
Um, that being said, uh, what's the secret weapon test?
00:39:56.355 --> 00:39:58.222
Secret weapon test?
00:39:58.222 --> 00:40:04.455
Oh, that is asking your top performer to teach their secret to the rest of the team.
00:40:04.455 --> 00:40:05.355
You ever done that?
00:40:05.355 --> 00:40:08.455
I have, and and sometimes it has worked.
00:40:08.455 --> 00:40:11.822
And other times they've been like, no. And those people don't work for me anymore.
00:40:14.189 --> 00:40:18.289
I, I love that because the willingness to do it is one thing.
00:40:18.289 --> 00:40:22.122
Not everyone, not everyone was going to be able to execute on the sales stuff the way I was.
00:40:22.122 --> 00:40:22.522
Exactly.
00:40:22.522 --> 00:40:24.289
But I was willing to show them what I did well, and that's it.
00:40:24.289 --> 00:40:26.789
Like I. There's been times where people said, how do you do it?
00:40:26.789 --> 00:40:28.155
Well, this is just how I do it.
00:40:28.155 --> 00:40:32.922
And they go, okay, I can't be you, but it's how can you take some of the things?
00:40:32.922 --> 00:40:34.089
How can we work together?
00:40:34.089 --> 00:40:35.689
It's not.
00:40:35.689 --> 00:40:36.855
It's help me understand.
00:40:36.855 --> 00:40:40.755
And if they're not willing to help understand, I'm not asking them to teach it.
00:40:40.755 --> 00:40:43.389
I'm just asking them to explain it at one hundred.
00:40:43.389 --> 00:40:47.722
And that, that that truly is that is the, that is the, the way to get there.
00:40:47.722 --> 00:40:57.855
And that to me is kind of like if you have a culture that does that, you are rewarding that assistance.
00:40:57.855 --> 00:40:58.189
Yeah.
00:40:58.189 --> 00:41:00.089
You have to find a way to do that.
00:41:00.089 --> 00:41:00.689
Yeah.
00:41:00.689 --> 00:41:06.722
To make it so it's, it's beneficial for them to help others because you got to realize it's not kneecapping them.
00:41:06.722 --> 00:41:09.122
And I would say, you know, we're naming that score.
00:41:09.122 --> 00:41:11.722
We're not just the scoreboard, right?
00:41:11.722 --> 00:41:15.422
We have to explain what winning actually means.
00:41:15.422 --> 00:41:17.522
We have to define our expectations.
00:41:17.522 --> 00:41:18.455
Correct.
00:41:18.455 --> 00:41:18.889
Yeah.
00:41:18.889 --> 00:41:20.589
It's revenue for the company.
00:41:20.589 --> 00:41:21.789
That's that's what that is.
00:41:21.789 --> 00:41:22.655
The scoreboard.
00:41:22.655 --> 00:41:23.289
Yes.
00:41:23.289 --> 00:41:24.355
Um, and.
00:41:24.355 --> 00:41:26.555
Oh, should I make a football analogy for you, please?
00:41:26.555 --> 00:41:27.555
Are you okay?
00:41:27.555 --> 00:41:29.389
If you make it soccer, I'm gonna be mad.
00:41:29.389 --> 00:41:30.722
It's not football.
00:41:30.722 --> 00:41:32.789
Football is.
00:41:32.789 --> 00:41:36.322
Individual tackles have an effect on the score.
00:41:36.322 --> 00:41:36.889
Yes.
00:41:36.889 --> 00:41:38.155
They are not the score.
00:41:38.155 --> 00:41:41.255
No. Sacks have an effect on this.
00:41:41.255 --> 00:41:41.889
Absolutely.
00:41:41.889 --> 00:41:44.155
They are not the score.
00:41:44.155 --> 00:41:46.589
And you should keep track of those numbers.
00:41:46.589 --> 00:41:52.389
But you should also tell people that hey, revenue and profit really is the score.
00:41:52.389 --> 00:41:54.389
Gross profit is the score.
00:41:54.389 --> 00:41:55.555
It's not.
00:41:55.555 --> 00:41:57.389
How many phone calls did you make this week?
00:41:57.389 --> 00:41:59.055
Yeah, yeah.
00:41:59.055 --> 00:42:16.455
The other thing that I always feel too is you have to you have to be clear about the rules between like if you're, if you allow your salespeople to corner cut or competitive people to corner cut, yes, they're going to, yes, I did, I did too.
00:42:16.455 --> 00:42:17.255
That's how I got ahead.
00:42:17.255 --> 00:42:18.189
Do it all the time.
00:42:18.189 --> 00:42:18.722
Right.
00:42:18.722 --> 00:42:20.089
I am my problem, right?
00:42:20.089 --> 00:42:20.389
Why?
00:42:20.389 --> 00:42:21.189
Why what?
00:42:21.189 --> 00:42:22.322
Like you're.
00:42:22.322 --> 00:42:23.322
And it's funny.
00:42:23.322 --> 00:42:24.155
They.
00:42:24.155 --> 00:42:26.322
And I'll use the summit example again.
00:42:26.322 --> 00:42:27.855
They're like, you need to slow down.
00:42:27.855 --> 00:42:29.789
And I'm like, so I can make less money.
00:42:29.789 --> 00:42:30.789
Yeah.
00:42:30.789 --> 00:42:32.889
Why why would I do that?
00:42:32.889 --> 00:42:34.289
They're like, well, you need to.
00:42:34.289 --> 00:42:37.322
And I'm like, for what we need so you can make less money, right?
00:42:37.322 --> 00:42:48.589
Right y y. Um, so yeah, to me, it's making sure that you're competing on the things that are actually getting you to what you need to go to.
00:42:48.589 --> 00:42:52.322
Um, the kind of a last statement with this here.
00:42:52.322 --> 00:42:53.089
Yeah.
00:42:53.089 --> 00:42:57.555
Healthy competition should elevate, not isolate.
00:42:57.555 --> 00:42:58.389
Yes.
00:43:00.889 --> 00:43:02.255
It's very simple.
00:43:02.255 --> 00:43:05.589
I yes, one hundred percent with that.
00:43:05.589 --> 00:43:11.055
Um, one quick like quick shot topic employee of the month.
00:43:11.055 --> 00:43:11.589
Yeah.
00:43:11.589 --> 00:43:13.955
What are your feelings on this?
00:43:13.955 --> 00:43:16.889
I mean, it really depends on what you're rewarding.
00:43:16.889 --> 00:43:21.122
So recognition works when it reinforces culture, not when it feels random.
00:43:21.122 --> 00:43:23.722
So you've got to be purposeful in what you're doing.
00:43:23.722 --> 00:43:25.055
Tell me why you're doing it.
00:43:25.055 --> 00:43:28.922
And if it's just because they made all of the sales, you can't.
00:43:28.922 --> 00:43:30.322
No, I don't like that.
00:43:30.322 --> 00:43:31.889
I, I hate it.
00:43:31.889 --> 00:43:34.589
Yeah, I absolutely despise the employee of the month.
00:43:34.589 --> 00:43:35.722
You know why?
00:43:35.722 --> 00:43:44.255
Because it's either Bob every month because Bob is the rock star or it's it's a it's a participation trophy.
00:43:44.255 --> 00:43:44.889
Yeah.
00:43:44.889 --> 00:43:46.189
We gave it to Bob last.
00:43:46.189 --> 00:43:47.589
We gave it to Bob four months ago.
00:43:47.589 --> 00:43:49.422
So we can't give it to Bob again.
00:43:49.422 --> 00:43:49.955
Who else?
00:43:49.955 --> 00:43:52.822
And we gave it to the second and third performers.
00:43:52.822 --> 00:43:55.589
Who can we give it to this month?
00:43:55.589 --> 00:43:55.855
Yeah.
00:43:55.855 --> 00:43:59.322
So I would say and people see like they do employees see through that.
00:43:59.322 --> 00:43:59.789
They do.
00:43:59.789 --> 00:44:02.322
Now if employees are nominating and their work.
00:44:02.322 --> 00:44:06.455
If it's more collaborative, if this is a way to create collaboration in your organization.
00:44:06.455 --> 00:44:09.589
I am a huge proponent of it, but there's got to be purpose around it.
00:44:09.589 --> 00:44:09.955
Yeah.
00:44:09.955 --> 00:44:14.222
No, I if it's the if it's the team player award or something like that.
00:44:14.222 --> 00:44:14.522
Sure.
00:44:14.522 --> 00:44:19.489
But once again, you're typically going to have one person that you're going to be giving that award to every month.
00:44:19.489 --> 00:44:22.855
And after, like after Bob's won it six months in a row.
00:44:22.855 --> 00:44:24.089
Frankly, I don't care.
00:44:24.089 --> 00:44:25.655
I know it's automatically Bob's.
00:44:25.655 --> 00:44:35.889
Oh, and I would say too, to be very frank, these are the types of strategies that work in very large organizations that need to build culture across multiple states.
00:44:35.889 --> 00:44:36.222
Yes.
00:44:36.222 --> 00:44:37.489
Multiple regions.
00:44:37.489 --> 00:44:39.955
This is not for your ten person small business.
00:44:39.955 --> 00:44:41.189
No, stop.
00:44:41.189 --> 00:44:41.722
I'm sorry.
00:44:41.722 --> 00:44:42.455
It's bullshit.
00:44:42.455 --> 00:44:46.722
Don't do the bullshit thing of employee of the month when you got five freaking people.
00:44:46.722 --> 00:44:48.422
It's just dumb.
00:44:48.422 --> 00:44:49.455
Sorry.
00:44:49.455 --> 00:44:51.355
I had to swear we don't do it.
00:44:51.355 --> 00:44:53.655
No, I wholeheartedly agree.
00:44:53.655 --> 00:44:54.689
It is that, like.
00:44:54.689 --> 00:44:56.489
Because once again, it's Bob.
00:44:56.489 --> 00:45:00.122
Yeah, Bob's just the rock star or it's the really, it's the business owner.
00:45:00.122 --> 00:45:01.089
It's me every month.
00:45:01.089 --> 00:45:01.489
Really?
00:45:01.489 --> 00:45:03.222
No. You don't get to be employee of the month.
00:45:03.222 --> 00:45:04.822
That's why no one wants to work for you.
00:45:04.822 --> 00:45:07.322
I don't know, but I am I'm.
00:45:07.322 --> 00:45:08.889
I'm awesome at what I do.
00:45:08.889 --> 00:45:12.022
So am I. I'm never gonna make myself employee of the month.
00:45:13.655 --> 00:45:17.622
I know people have told me I've got an ego.
00:45:17.622 --> 00:45:19.455
I do not have that much of an ego.
00:45:23.622 --> 00:45:26.355
That being said, seems like a great place to wrap it up.
00:45:26.355 --> 00:45:36.789
I had to enter this in because I need to try and say this because we covered Chris's three C's of competitive culture, competition, collaboration and confidence.
00:45:36.789 --> 00:45:43.622
Yay! Woo! Let's go with the three C's of leadership, clarity, consistency and care.
00:45:43.622 --> 00:45:44.122
Yeah.
00:45:44.122 --> 00:45:51.655
But like we need to, we just need to have an all see episode where every word that we say, we're not allowed to say anything unless it has a C in it.
00:45:51.655 --> 00:45:53.955
That could be fun and scary at the same time.
00:45:53.955 --> 00:45:54.922
No, it wouldn't be.
00:45:54.922 --> 00:46:01.422
I can tell you right now, it would not be no. If you'd like to see that, though, go to business Podcast.com.
00:46:01.422 --> 00:46:02.722
Give us that suggestion.
00:46:02.722 --> 00:46:04.189
Give us a review on the platform.
00:46:04.189 --> 00:46:09.989
Let us know if you would like to hear us do an all see episode or an old episode, or an all.
00:46:09.989 --> 00:46:11.689
Maybe we pick up like a Q episode.
00:46:11.689 --> 00:46:11.889
Yeah.
00:46:11.889 --> 00:46:14.255
Oh, x um, yeah.
00:46:14.255 --> 00:46:14.989
No. We'll play.
00:46:14.989 --> 00:46:19.389
I'll play the xylophone for the William Tell Orchestra that you're going to tap dance to.
00:46:19.389 --> 00:46:20.822
Yes.
00:46:20.822 --> 00:46:22.689
We'll do it in Xenia, Ohio to be fun.
00:46:24.455 --> 00:46:36.589
The next episode, the real reason why hybrid work still isn't working as well as it should, because, well, you're probably making a mistake with it.
00:46:36.589 --> 00:46:38.655
I've made a few mistakes with doing it wrong.
00:46:38.655 --> 00:46:40.489
Yeah, I may have.
00:46:40.489 --> 00:46:40.889
Okay.
00:46:40.889 --> 00:46:41.855
Me too.
00:46:41.855 --> 00:46:42.855
Do us a favor.
00:46:42.855 --> 00:46:43.555
Take care of yourself.
00:46:43.555 --> 00:46:45.189
If you can't take care of someone else too.
00:46:45.189 --> 00:46:47.955
We will see you very, very soon.