Why Your Hybrid Work Model Is Failing (And How to Fix It Fast)

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Whenever I hear a back to work mandate, I think you done screwed up.
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And not the employees usually.
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Yeah.
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You're looking at me like, I don't know what he's gonna say, and I don't know if I want to attach myself to what he's doing.
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Chrissy, if you're just listening, Christie has a very nervous look on her face.
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HR.
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Look.
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Chrissy.
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HR Chrissy has arrived in the room.
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No, to me it is hybrid.
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Can be such an amazing thing for businesses and employees.
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Absolutely.
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So many businesses don't see it that way.
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And they do it wrong.
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That's because they've done it wrong.
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That is what we're going to talk about this week.
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Stay tuned.
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She's the CEO.
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He's the marketing and operations guy.
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If it's broken you need the business fix.
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You guys run hybrid in a lot of cases, correct?
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Yeah.
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I mean, we have we have virtual team members.
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And then we do have some like work from home.
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But I or those people though, that like really working in the office together.
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So we're not, we're not normal.
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No, but it's there.
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You've worked very hard at doing that.
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We have we have the ones that don't are the ones that.
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Damn it.
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I need you in the office.
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Yes.
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Um, or the ones that are just like, oh, we've got remote people that we're constantly mad at.
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Yeah.
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Um, no, we don't do that.
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That is not how that works for us.
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And it's funny because to me, I like people like, oh, the energy, the office.
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And I get how some people like that.
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Mhm.
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I am not one of them.
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No, it depends for me, my problem is, is I am the guy that's going to stop by your desk and have a chat for twenty minutes.
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Yeah, I'm the guy.
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I'm, I am that even in my own company.
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I am that guy.
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Oh yeah, I know I am too.
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Distracts my employees for twenty minutes and like, hey, they're like, I kind of want to get stuff done.
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And I'm like, no, I'm gonna stay in here.
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I need to talk to you.
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We're gonna build a relationship.
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Then they're looking at like, can I, can I look like they get this look like they're gonna jump out the window?
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Um, thankfully, I mean, like most of the time, like the studio here is on the first floor.
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Yes.
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Uh, if you jump out of the window, you're jumping into an art gallery.
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So it's not the, not the worst place to land.
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No, but that's, it's so funny that, uh, I see that I see a big part of that is like owners, owners get frustrated.
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They think people aren't working.
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Yeah, I can see sometimes I can see a little bit of that.
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Um, they're like, they, they can't work if they're not in dress pants.
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No they can't I promise.
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Yeah.
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No, I same, same.
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There's, I mean, not to give graphic visuals here, but there are many times when I'm sitting in my underwear like, hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna work on something to work on my work, right?
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Yeah, I get it right.
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Like if you get an email from me, just realize it could have been typed in my underwear.
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Remember a few years ago we were all working in underwear one hundred percent because no one.
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Because no one could go to the office.
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No.
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Correct.
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So yeah, to me, I want to talk about like why hybrids fail.
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Yeah.
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Um, I see so many of the office mandates and I realize in big companies, oftentimes it is, it is a cleansing.
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Um, they are looking for a way to get rid of people.
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Well, and you spend hundreds of millions of dollars on a new building, like you're gonna friggin show up, right?
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They feel this need.
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You got real estate you gotta deal with.
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Yeah, right.
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You need to be there.
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Um, but really, we want to talk about this from a small midsize business angle on the piece to that.
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First off, I mean, you guys weren't always hybrid.
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No we're not.
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We were.
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Everyone shows up.
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Right, right.
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And as most businesses were, I mean, there was a necessity to do that, especially when I mean, when you started in the business when you were a toddler.
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Yes.
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Uh, technology did not allow for a hybrid work environment.
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Correct.
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I mean, I'm old enough to remember digging through catalog racks.
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Yes.
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Um.
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Ha. Thousands of pages of book.
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Um, why?
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I mean, was it terrifying for you to go hybrid?
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Why was it terrifying for you if it was like, why do most CEOs see an issue with it?
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Is it a lack of trust?
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Is it that, like, I want to be able to know what's going on with, I want to look over and see that like, oh, Carol's reconciling.
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That makes me just feel so good about Carol reconciling.
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I need to see the person doing the things to know that they're doing the things.
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That's right.
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I don't think it's even like to me, hybrids like a just a given.
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Like most people have the capacity.
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I mean, unless you're working on like a manufacturing line, like if you're in B2B services, if you're in knowledge work, you are probably already a hybrid worker.
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So it's just, yeah, you should be.
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Um, so I don't think leaders are really afraid of hybrid.
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I think they get more afraid of like a fully virtual.
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But at the end of the day, Josh it's a, it's really about them being afraid of losing control.
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I wholeheartedly.
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Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
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Yeah.
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So I mean, it's what I've seen before.
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It's not a hybrid problem.
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It's it's trust training and tracking problems.
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So this plays into operations.
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It does the last piece I'm like it really does.
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So I mean trust.
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This is trust dah dah dah.
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It's really what I want to say.
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Trust dah.
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All right.
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If you have to see someone to believe they're working, you don't have a hybrid issue.
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You have a hiring or leadership issue.
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And usually I would say a lot of the time it's, it's the person that's doing the hiring that is the problem, right?
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And research backs backs this up.
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You know, Gallup consistently finds that high trust workplaces outperform low trust workplaces.
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So, I mean, that's the other part.
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If like, you've got to have everyone in the office, you can't trust that they're doing their job.
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Chances are they don't want to do their job for you anymore and they're looking for another one.
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So leaders who rely on visibility instead of results create that disengagement.
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They don't get performance.
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Uh, so I, I have one simple statement about trust.
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Go ahead.
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If you don't trust them, why in the hell are they working for you?
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It's such a good question.
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If you don't trust Betty in accounting, why does she have your checkbook?
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Yeah, she's gotta be here.
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It's like.
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Okay.
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Right?
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Yeah.
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You know, trust isn't built by watching people.
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It's built by knowing what they deliver.
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You've got to understand how the business works.
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And it doesn't.
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They don't have to be in person all the time to do that.
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So the trust number one, trust number two, training, right?
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Most leaders are never trained to manage outcomes.
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They are trained to manage presents.
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right.
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Have you mentioned something about training managers training?
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Yes.
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Promoting people without leadership training is irresponsible.
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I wanted to give you the opportunity.
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I will continue to say that.
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So when hybrid removes that visibility from people, because of course, they're trained to manage presence and the people in the office, they feel unanchored and they don't know what to do.
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So this really ties directly to management capability gaps.
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And it's something that Harvard Business Review has kind of written about extensively.
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And they talk about how leaders default to control when they lack clarity in their systems.
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So I think this is probably even more of an operations issue for you.
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Oh yeah.
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Yeah.
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We don't have clarity in our systems.
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We haven't trained them to be able to navigate a virtual environment.
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It's not really about like hybrid breaking leadership, but usually they talk about how like our virtual environment has broken our leadership, know it has exposed it.
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Yeah.
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Saying that you have some training gaps.
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It was done broke before it was broke before.
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You just now you you don't have a choice but to see it.
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It's right there Yeah.
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Staring at you.
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It is.
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And you know where I'm staring at you through the mirror.
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Yeah.
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So trust and training.
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And that third is tracking.
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And again, this probably ties more into you, but it's a lot of them.
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We're talking about a hybrid environment or a virtual environment.
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We really are talking about operations.
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We're not like, this is not high level.
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This is not like visionary stuff.
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This is very basic, but it's the thing that you still need to be aware of, you have to be aware of.
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So tracking, if you don't have clear expectations, deliverables, and timelines, your only fallback is are they online?
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It's the little dot like, are they there?
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You have to know that.
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And that's not management.
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That's monitoring.
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You've got to be able to know like, what are the expectations?
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What are the deliverables?
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And so when you don't track outcomes, you track activity.
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And activity is a really terrible proxy for value.
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I like doing the work.
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Well, what is the work?
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I don't know, but they're doing they're green like, were there red?
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Like red means they're in a meeting.
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I'm like, they are meeting with themselves.
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They are not like, what is it?
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Remember the all the, the mouse moving things.
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Yes.
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Like you'd see like people that have like, especially during Covid.
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Yes.
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When all these software trackers came on and people came up with things that would just move their mouse all day long and you'd see them taking a nap, you would.
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And what was so frustrating to me is because we dealt with with not within our own organization, but we dealt with clients who started having those issues and they're like, we're going to install monitoring software.
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What do you recommend?
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I'm like, nothing, I don't because if you don't know what your people are doing already, there is a bigger problem.
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Like you should be able to know what the outcomes are like, what's going on?
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Like for us, we're still solving HR and insurance headaches, and I can tell that we're doing that because our customers are happy.
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No one is going anywhere and we're continuing to grow.
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Oh, is it really that hard?
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No it's not.
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It's not hard.
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This is not hard.
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You need to know how your business runs, whether you're the CEO, whether you're the business owner, whether you're a key manager, you got to know how it runs.
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So that's it.
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It's it's really simple.
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It's trust.
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It's training.
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It's tracking.
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Three teeth.
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You're welcome.
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I love the just.
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This is it.
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It's done.
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It's not hard.
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No, it really is.
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It's not hard to say.
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It is hard sometimes to do if you haven't done it ever in your business.
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But start doing it the right way.
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Like start at the foundation, create those SOPs, follow your operations manual.
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Oh I know.
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Actually follow it.
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What's that?
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Follow your handbook if you have one.
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Actually do the things in it.
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So when you talk about the tracking software what do you get with visibility?
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Oh, I'm excited to hear your take on.
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Yeah.
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Like, because I like, I, I worked someplace where they literally every day from it got a printout of every website that every, the owner got a printout of every website that every employee visited.
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Yeah.
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And he looked at it.
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We were in the I mean, this is what do you get litter?
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I mean, that's it.
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It's litter.
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A whole bunch of scratch paper if you're not printing on both sides.
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Like what is the value there?
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I don't know that you get any.
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I mean, I don't think you do because you're dealing with, you know, cultural visibility versus culture of results.
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And I think often they think, well, if I have visibility, I have results.
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That's not they don't they are not the same thing.
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No, no they're not.
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No. So I would say, you know, visibility doesn't always equal value.
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So here's here's one thing I will say though, like visibility bias is real as far as it relates to like people getting promoted, people being seen in an organization.
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Like there's that visibility bias.
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And I'm not sure it's something that can easily be changed simply because it's human nature.
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And we've been doing it since the dawn of time.
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Yes, we fixate on what we see.
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If we see it, it's real.
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I mean, it's really how we wired, but we can ask ourselves questions and be conscious.
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So I will say this visibility does not always equal value doesn't.
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I agree.
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No. Just because someone is seen more doesn't mean that they're contributing more.
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Just because their mouse is moving all the time doesn't mean they're doing the thing right.
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Right.
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And we've had, you know, presence creates perception, not necessarily performance.
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So when people are talking about like, I want to work in a virtual environment and I want to get promoted and they're like, what's the best way to do that?
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I'm like, you need to work on being seen.
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Well, I don't ever want to go into the office where the managers are.
00:14:18.060 --> 00:14:31.926
I'm like, then you're probably going to have some more challenges around that because it's really important because there are studies on proximity bias, like Harvard Business Review has done some significant ones that show in-office employees are more likely to be promoted even when performance is equal.
00:14:31.926 --> 00:14:36.160
And that's where I think people get upset is they're like, well, I'm doing the same job as Joe.
00:14:36.160 --> 00:14:40.893
And I'm like, well, Joe is in front of the manager every day because he sees him working.
00:14:40.893 --> 00:14:42.259
And you've got to be able to do this.
00:14:42.259 --> 00:14:43.960
And they see the non tangibles.
00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:44.526
Yes.
00:14:44.526 --> 00:14:45.326
Yeah.
00:14:45.326 --> 00:14:45.660
Yes.
00:14:45.660 --> 00:14:46.560
So I mean it doesn't.
00:14:46.560 --> 00:14:49.293
So visibility doesn't always equal value.
00:14:49.293 --> 00:14:54.660
No. But the other part is you know visibility must be defined.
00:14:54.660 --> 00:15:00.560
So if you haven't clearly defined what success looks like oh one hundred percent leaders are going to default to what they can see.
00:15:00.560 --> 00:15:05.626
So you've got to make sure that if it is a virtual environment, you know what success is.
00:15:05.626 --> 00:15:09.093
It's not just the mouse moves, it's not just the websites.
00:15:09.093 --> 00:15:12.860
It's why I love those tracking software things because I'm like, why am I, why am I doing it?
00:15:12.860 --> 00:15:13.060
Now?
00:15:13.060 --> 00:15:23.626
If you're talking about screenshots of like, is this person actually on the screens that they need to like, I understand sometimes you need to do that if you really want to make sure, but is that something you do all the time?
00:15:23.626 --> 00:15:27.026
No, no. Do you have the right to do it at any time as an employer?
00:15:27.026 --> 00:15:27.493
Yes.
00:15:27.493 --> 00:15:31.692
Do your employees need to know that you are monitoring them at all times?
00:15:31.692 --> 00:15:34.060
No. They need to know that you have the ability to do that.
00:15:34.060 --> 00:15:34.393
Yes.
00:15:34.393 --> 00:15:38.593
That's where I think sometimes because once again, that trust needs to go both ways.
00:15:38.593 --> 00:15:39.393
Yes it does.
00:15:39.393 --> 00:15:42.692
And so at clarity, we're talking about value has to be defined.
00:15:42.692 --> 00:15:49.493
We lean heavily into for organizations defining your outcomes, defining your expectations, and then defining accountability.
00:15:49.493 --> 00:15:50.026
Oh, I like that.
00:15:50.026 --> 00:15:50.225
Yeah.
00:15:50.225 --> 00:15:57.160
Because if you don't define value, visibility becomes a substitute and visibility is a poor substitute for value.
00:15:57.160 --> 00:15:57.960
One hundred percent.
00:15:57.960 --> 00:15:58.560
Yes.
00:15:58.560 --> 00:16:00.692
And you think there's a direct correlation there.
00:16:00.692 --> 00:16:00.893
Not.
00:16:00.893 --> 00:16:01.393
There's not.
00:16:01.393 --> 00:16:02.192
No they're not.
00:16:02.192 --> 00:16:06.893
And here's where I would also say that visibility has to be structured and reviewed.
00:16:06.893 --> 00:16:07.460
Okay.
00:16:07.460 --> 00:16:13.259
So this is, I think again, where you come in, this is more of like, we don't eliminate visibility, we standardize it.
00:16:13.259 --> 00:16:13.725
Yep.
00:16:13.725 --> 00:16:24.259
So we have dashboards, we have reporting, we have clear metrics because when everyone is evaluated on the same criteria, then we truly get fairness because fairness doesn't come from watching.
00:16:24.259 --> 00:16:26.660
It comes from measuring fairness.
00:16:26.660 --> 00:16:27.593
Well, I see this.
00:16:27.593 --> 00:16:30.460
It seems that fairness is not a theme.
00:16:30.460 --> 00:16:31.326
It is an is.
00:16:31.326 --> 00:16:33.660
I can look really busy and still not get a damn thing done.
00:16:33.660 --> 00:16:34.426
Oh, absolutely.
00:16:34.426 --> 00:16:37.593
That's lots of small business owners do all the time.
00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:39.593
Duh.
00:16:43.160 --> 00:16:45.160
Look at all the stuff I didn't do today.
00:16:45.160 --> 00:16:45.993
Yes.
00:16:45.993 --> 00:16:46.360
Yeah.
00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:48.326
No one hundred percent makes sense.
00:16:48.326 --> 00:16:52.560
Like, is there a spot where it becomes a risk for HR?
00:16:52.560 --> 00:16:53.926
Oh, absolutely.
00:16:53.926 --> 00:16:54.626
What is that?
00:16:54.626 --> 00:16:56.526
So I would say part of it.
00:16:56.526 --> 00:16:59.793
You've got unreasonable expectations.
00:16:59.793 --> 00:17:00.326
Sure.
00:17:00.326 --> 00:17:01.993
You talk about like the overwork.
00:17:01.993 --> 00:17:04.925
Like we expect salary people to work fifty hours every week all the time.
00:17:04.925 --> 00:17:05.160
Yeah.
00:17:05.160 --> 00:17:06.160
No you can't do that.
00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:09.225
Um, or we, we expect or we freak out when they leave at three o'clock on a Friday.
00:17:09.225 --> 00:17:14.393
No. So, um, inconsistency and expectations creates exposure for you.
00:17:14.393 --> 00:17:16.192
So there's a few things you have to do.
00:17:16.192 --> 00:17:17.660
One is perception.
00:17:17.660 --> 00:17:22.192
So if employees feel like expectations are uneven you have created a problem.
00:17:22.192 --> 00:17:22.526
Yes.
00:17:22.526 --> 00:17:23.160
right.
00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:27.792
And perceived unfairness as one of the top drivers of employee turnover and complaints.
00:17:27.792 --> 00:17:28.160
Yep.
00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:30.925
If they perceive that there is something that is unfair.
00:17:30.925 --> 00:17:35.125
So you've got to eliminate perception of an unfair environment.
00:17:35.125 --> 00:17:38.292
So that gives you that that paradox, the other one's precedent.
00:17:38.292 --> 00:17:40.992
And this is where like we talk about consistency.
00:17:40.992 --> 00:17:43.759
Consistency gives you that precedent.
00:17:43.759 --> 00:17:52.826
If you allow flexibility sometimes for some people and not others, you're creating a precedent that you may not be able to defend.
00:17:52.826 --> 00:17:53.692
Yep.
00:17:53.692 --> 00:17:57.359
We only give the the every sheet.
00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:03.992
So Jessica is allowed to leave at two thirty because she needs to get her kids off the bus every day.
00:18:03.992 --> 00:18:06.192
Betty needs to leave at two thirty for a doctor's appointment.
00:18:06.192 --> 00:18:06.992
No, Betty cannot leave.
00:18:06.992 --> 00:18:07.792
She has to take PTO.
00:18:07.792 --> 00:18:09.225
But we'll let Jessica do it all the time.
00:18:09.225 --> 00:18:10.692
Same job, same salary.
00:18:10.692 --> 00:18:11.759
That's a problem.
00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:12.492
That's a big problem.
00:18:12.492 --> 00:18:17.460
You've got to create some cadence around it or like, document why you're doing it or what's going on.
00:18:17.460 --> 00:18:20.960
So if you, if you create that precedent, you can't be able to defend.
00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:21.759
So legal risk.
00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:22.093
Answer.
00:18:22.093 --> 00:18:27.625
Inconsistent treatment and unequal expectations do not set those precedents.
00:18:27.625 --> 00:18:29.059
Yeah, one hundred percent.
00:18:29.059 --> 00:18:30.492
And then the third is that protection piece.
00:18:30.492 --> 00:18:34.660
And this is again documentation and consistency because you've mentioned documentation before.
00:18:34.660 --> 00:18:37.526
A lot of times documentation is not bureaucracy.
00:18:37.526 --> 00:18:39.125
It is protection.
00:18:39.125 --> 00:18:43.425
And documentation protects the employee and the company.
00:18:43.425 --> 00:18:48.326
I saw a YouTube video the other day where they looked at how many phone books it takes to stop a bullet.
00:18:48.326 --> 00:18:49.360
Oh, how many does it take?
00:18:49.360 --> 00:18:55.925
I didn't watch the whole thing, but the question to me, kind of as soon as you said the documentation thing, I thought, yeah.
00:18:55.925 --> 00:18:57.860
Protect yourself and paperwork you do.
00:18:57.860 --> 00:18:59.726
You need to build yourself a fort.
00:18:59.726 --> 00:19:00.625
Exactly.
00:19:00.625 --> 00:19:11.860
And what I would say too, you're picturing it now I am HR, so the HR, the HR for documentation, that sounds really important.
00:19:11.860 --> 00:19:17.526
That sounds like absolute hell or really good protection for your organization.
00:19:17.526 --> 00:19:18.293
That's the other part.
00:19:18.293 --> 00:19:20.160
Unless they have a Molotov cocktail, that's.
00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:20.393
Yeah.
00:19:20.393 --> 00:19:20.992
Don't do that.
00:19:20.992 --> 00:19:21.293
Right.
00:19:21.293 --> 00:19:26.593
So, you know, as we talk about, you know, why does a virtual or hybrid environment fail?
00:19:26.593 --> 00:19:28.593
Like people are like, well, it fails because it's location.
00:19:28.593 --> 00:19:29.593
Like we're not all together.
00:19:29.593 --> 00:19:33.893
So that's like, no, it fails because you have lack of that clarity, consistency, care.
00:19:33.893 --> 00:19:36.093
You have lack of trust, you have lack of visibility.
00:19:36.093 --> 00:19:41.726
And because of that, you're not dealing with the protections and the precedents that you need, creating a perception that it doesn't work.
00:19:41.726 --> 00:19:47.492
So yeah, the I love the piece going back that you said about you just exposed.
00:19:47.492 --> 00:19:49.293
Yeah, the leadership you did.
00:19:49.293 --> 00:19:51.492
It was a problem before.
00:19:51.492 --> 00:19:52.793
Now it's just visible.
00:19:52.793 --> 00:19:54.992
That was that to me is huge.
00:19:54.992 --> 00:19:56.160
It absolutely is.
00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:59.826
So I've talked a lot about operations, but I think you should talk more about it.
00:19:59.826 --> 00:20:00.160
Yeah.
00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:03.059
No, I like there's there's stuff I've got to add to this.
00:20:03.059 --> 00:20:03.425
Yeah.
00:20:03.425 --> 00:20:09.793
So you kind of talked we talked a little bit about like salary paradox, you know, hourly versus salary salaried versus hybrid.
00:20:09.793 --> 00:20:15.393
So like most of the time people handle it wrong with not defining their expectations.
00:20:15.393 --> 00:20:19.360
How does that operational failure make hybrid work fail to to me.
00:20:19.360 --> 00:20:27.559
So the salary paradox that I look at, and I've experienced this in a lot of cases is you pay people a salary, but you treat them hourly.
00:20:27.559 --> 00:20:29.526
Yeah, I was operations manager.
00:20:29.526 --> 00:20:31.125
I was a marketing manager.
00:20:31.125 --> 00:20:38.125
And yet I the same hours as the guy at the parts counter.
00:20:38.125 --> 00:20:38.526
Mhm.
00:20:38.526 --> 00:20:39.826
Um, wait a minute.
00:20:39.826 --> 00:20:40.425
What?
00:20:40.425 --> 00:20:41.059
No.
00:20:41.059 --> 00:20:41.559
Right.
00:20:41.559 --> 00:20:43.726
And then it was eight to five.
00:20:43.726 --> 00:20:47.826
If I showed up at eight oh one, I got yelled at and I'm like, wait a minute here.
00:20:47.826 --> 00:20:54.660
I worked till six thirty last night on stuff I did well, and I'm sure they expected you to take a seven thirty p m phone call.
00:20:54.660 --> 00:20:55.226
Correct.
00:20:55.226 --> 00:20:58.326
But you still had to show up at seven fifty five the next morning.
00:20:58.326 --> 00:20:58.660
Right.
00:20:58.660 --> 00:21:09.425
So the problem is, is salary was designed to and unleashed to, to um pay on productivity.
00:21:09.425 --> 00:21:17.026
Um, it is now paid the same way as on presents for so, so, so many positions.
00:21:17.026 --> 00:21:21.692
There's a reason why legally you cannot pay someone's salary unless they're in a management position.
00:21:21.692 --> 00:21:22.192
Exactly.
00:21:22.192 --> 00:21:31.293
That's because the expectation of a management position, clear definitions and rules, and the federal government has set expectations for what the minimum of salary is allowed to be.
00:21:31.293 --> 00:21:34.559
And if it falls below that threshold, you must pay overtime.
00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:35.460
Correct.
00:21:35.460 --> 00:21:40.492
So with all of that being defined, hybrid work is the same way.
00:21:40.492 --> 00:21:40.759
Yeah.
00:21:40.759 --> 00:21:47.026
Because to me, if you're paying someone hybrid, if you're paying them an hourly rate, I under, I fully understand.
00:21:47.026 --> 00:21:50.692
Let's say you have a customer service rep that's call center.
00:21:50.692 --> 00:22:00.992
I fully understand you saying, hey, look, you need to be at your desk from eight thirty to five so you can answer phone calls and you're, you're going to look at their productivity in terms of how many calls did you take?
00:22:00.992 --> 00:22:10.393
But once again, seeing them sit at their computer and moving their mouse no matter what, no, doesn't do anything.
00:22:10.393 --> 00:22:19.125
The the problem that happens with this is we as business owners, as leaders, we always want more.
00:22:19.125 --> 00:22:22.660
Um, we hey, can you can you do, can you do just a little bit more?
00:22:22.660 --> 00:22:27.726
We talked a couple episodes ago about being a little bit better than you were last week.
00:22:27.726 --> 00:22:28.093
Yeah.
00:22:28.093 --> 00:22:36.125
The problem is, is most employees are given the vague directive of just do more or keep busy.
00:22:36.125 --> 00:22:40.226
Just if there's time, if there's time to lean, there's time to clean.
00:22:41.526 --> 00:22:43.360
We say that in our house.
00:22:43.360 --> 00:22:44.625
Do our teenagers.
00:22:47.293 --> 00:22:52.960
Some days, like when I like the mission statements, the things like that, your your house.
00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:57.160
I mean, it's vastly different than mine in terms of how it is run.
00:22:57.160 --> 00:22:59.226
I love that you think that you should come visit sometime.
00:22:59.226 --> 00:23:01.093
No. I'm mortified.
00:23:01.093 --> 00:23:02.526
I'm like, this is what they do.
00:23:02.526 --> 00:23:06.759
No, no, I it is so different than I mean, just knowing the stories about it.
00:23:06.759 --> 00:23:11.259
But nonetheless, it is to me is the the just keep busy.
00:23:11.259 --> 00:23:11.726
Yes.
00:23:11.726 --> 00:23:12.893
Doing what?
00:23:12.893 --> 00:23:14.992
Accomplishing what?
00:23:14.992 --> 00:23:17.259
I've seen it so many times where.
00:23:17.259 --> 00:23:23.259
And it's the problem is, is this is a failure of leadership.
00:23:23.259 --> 00:23:23.960
Mhm.
00:23:23.960 --> 00:23:25.460
Um, just do more.
00:23:25.460 --> 00:23:26.526
You see stuff around.
00:23:26.526 --> 00:23:27.692
Just do it.
00:23:27.692 --> 00:23:30.160
You've got to clarify expectations as to what it is.
00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:31.192
What does done look like.
00:23:31.192 --> 00:23:38.793
Especially now as we're starting to move as, as work is changing with the innovations of AI and adoption of new tools.
00:23:38.793 --> 00:23:42.526
Now we're going to talk about, okay, well, you're supposed to work forty hours now.
00:23:42.526 --> 00:23:45.226
Your job can be done in ten.
00:23:45.226 --> 00:23:45.726
Yeah.
00:23:45.726 --> 00:23:49.192
Let's define then what not what are the other things you're going to do?
00:23:49.192 --> 00:23:54.726
Or what are the things that we need to change to make sure that we're still optimizing for the business.
00:23:54.726 --> 00:23:55.192
Correct.
00:23:55.192 --> 00:23:58.226
And it may not be that you work forty hours a week.
00:23:58.226 --> 00:24:02.992
It may be that you work thirty hours a week, but we pay you the same amount.
00:24:02.992 --> 00:24:08.593
And oh, by the way, you get some time to decompress because now you're dealing with technology all the time, which burns a lot.
00:24:08.593 --> 00:24:10.692
Our brains are not designed to work the same way.
00:24:10.692 --> 00:24:14.593
No. And to me, the thing that that's missing for people.
00:24:14.593 --> 00:24:19.125
And this is what kills employees is there's no defined done point.
00:24:19.125 --> 00:24:21.160
You are on this endless treadmill.
00:24:21.160 --> 00:24:24.526
So if I do more, they're going to give me more.
00:24:24.526 --> 00:24:25.026
Yeah.
00:24:25.026 --> 00:24:28.326
And when I do more of that, they're going to give me more.
00:24:28.326 --> 00:24:29.726
Mhm.
00:24:29.726 --> 00:24:30.759
There's no done point.
00:24:30.759 --> 00:24:35.759
I mean like, I get it, the the showroom is always going to need cleaned.
00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:36.026
Yeah.
00:24:36.026 --> 00:24:37.726
There's always going to need something.
00:24:37.726 --> 00:24:38.960
Something's going to need dusted.
00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:41.026
Something's going to need organized.
00:24:41.026 --> 00:24:45.326
But have a spot where you can say, look, thank you for doing that.
00:24:45.326 --> 00:24:46.593
Not just do more.
00:24:46.593 --> 00:24:52.393
Well, and what I want to say for the done point is, you know, there is absolutely no done point for you the business owner.
00:24:52.393 --> 00:24:52.660
Right.
00:24:52.660 --> 00:24:57.393
And you have a lot of times unlimited energy, unlimited capacity.
00:24:57.393 --> 00:24:58.660
And you just love your business so much.
00:24:58.660 --> 00:25:00.425
You just want to work all the time.
00:25:00.425 --> 00:25:02.360
Your employees don't.
00:25:02.360 --> 00:25:07.360
There's a reason why you own the business and they work for the business.
00:25:07.360 --> 00:25:07.726
Correct.
00:25:07.726 --> 00:25:13.960
Do not expect them to love your organization, work in your organization, or want to do the things in your organization that you are willing to do.
00:25:13.960 --> 00:25:15.559
No, it's not their baby.
00:25:15.559 --> 00:25:20.960
And if you're mad at them because it's not their baby, don't don't be a jerk.
00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:22.192
I want to say other words, too.
00:25:22.192 --> 00:25:22.726
Don't.
00:25:22.726 --> 00:25:23.726
Don't be them.
00:25:23.726 --> 00:25:25.125
No to me.
00:25:25.125 --> 00:25:31.093
So this is the thing that I always find the most interesting in a lot of the places that I've worked in was what I like to call.
00:25:31.093 --> 00:25:34.492
And I'm coining this as the thirty four hour reality.
00:25:34.492 --> 00:25:35.093
Okay.
00:25:35.093 --> 00:25:40.125
Um, someone has a set of assigned tasks that they have been given.
00:25:40.125 --> 00:25:41.026
Yeah.
00:25:41.026 --> 00:25:44.860
It's done Friday at ten o'clock.
00:25:44.860 --> 00:25:45.526
Yeah.
00:25:45.526 --> 00:25:47.360
What happens?
00:25:47.360 --> 00:25:49.393
You see them sitting in their office.
00:25:49.393 --> 00:25:51.893
Oh. Do you want me to visually show you they're spinning?
00:25:51.893 --> 00:25:52.226
Right?
00:25:52.226 --> 00:25:53.860
They're spinning in their chair.
00:25:53.860 --> 00:25:55.160
They're on their phone.
00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:56.726
They're scrolling Instagram.
00:25:56.726 --> 00:25:57.360
Right.
00:25:57.360 --> 00:26:04.992
They are pissed off that they are sitting in the office for a day that they do not need to be there.
00:26:04.992 --> 00:26:07.692
They have their head on their desk, right?
00:26:07.692 --> 00:26:27.093
Like, and this to me on the hybrid side of it is a huge issue when you are starting to look at that visibility because once again, why like, why does the person need to sit there for four hours moving their mouse when they are not doing a damn thing related to your business?
00:26:27.093 --> 00:26:28.293
They're like, hey, can you do.
00:26:28.293 --> 00:26:29.160
No, don't.
00:26:29.160 --> 00:26:31.460
And don't give them at that point, we're going to do more training.
00:26:31.460 --> 00:26:33.326
We're gonna do more networking, more this.
00:26:33.326 --> 00:26:36.526
We're like, no. Once again, I'm going to go back.
00:26:36.526 --> 00:26:40.259
You're moving the goalposts and you're getting do more, keep busy.
00:26:40.259 --> 00:26:40.660
Yeah.
00:26:40.660 --> 00:26:41.625
That's all you're giving them.
00:26:41.625 --> 00:26:42.360
Yeah.
00:26:42.360 --> 00:26:51.492
That's what, and that's why people like, yeah, totally check out or structure their day differently if you are hell bent on them being there in the afternoon on Friday when they don't have enough to do.
00:26:51.492 --> 00:26:55.759
You've got to figure out how to change the workweek around so that you can get the things that you want.
00:26:55.759 --> 00:26:56.960
Yep.
00:26:56.960 --> 00:26:57.960
That to me.
00:26:57.960 --> 00:26:59.759
How do you avoid some of these things?
00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:04.259
Well, operational operationalizing list and dates.
00:27:04.259 --> 00:27:04.960
Yeah.
00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:07.759
Um what is required of you by when.
00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:08.226
Yeah.
00:27:08.226 --> 00:27:11.793
If you manage the task and when it's due.
00:27:11.793 --> 00:27:15.293
If it's done by the date, what?
00:27:15.293 --> 00:27:16.492
What else do you want?
00:27:16.492 --> 00:27:17.526
Exactly.
00:27:17.526 --> 00:27:25.160
If you say, hey, this needs to be to a client by Wednesday and they get it done on Tuesday, what do you need them on Wednesday for?
00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:25.992
Exactly.
00:27:25.992 --> 00:27:27.526
Other than just do more.
00:27:27.526 --> 00:27:29.660
No, no. Just get the stuff done.
00:27:29.660 --> 00:27:34.992
To me, every role has to have that clear list of deliverables with hard expectations.
00:27:34.992 --> 00:27:38.593
It is done by ten o'clock on Tuesday.
00:27:38.593 --> 00:27:39.726
It's here.
00:27:39.726 --> 00:27:44.526
It's I mean, I don't like it's funny, I we're just bringing on someone else.
00:27:44.526 --> 00:27:50.793
And I'm in talking with this person, they've typically worked hourly and I'm like, you're going to be on a production based basis.
00:27:50.793 --> 00:27:51.192
Mhm.
00:27:51.192 --> 00:27:54.026
If you get it all done on Monday, great.
00:27:54.026 --> 00:27:54.293
Yeah.
00:27:54.293 --> 00:27:55.992
Check your email every day.
00:27:55.992 --> 00:27:56.960
Beyond that.
00:27:56.960 --> 00:27:57.826
Have a great week.
00:27:57.826 --> 00:27:59.893
Exactly what I mean.
00:27:59.893 --> 00:28:08.826
Because once again, I don't for us, I don't care when it's done as long as it's done on time, I, I don't need the.
00:28:08.826 --> 00:28:11.593
Them sitting there because I am managing.
00:28:11.593 --> 00:28:20.793
It's it's tougher initially, but once you get there, it is so much easier to manage expectations than it is to manage minutes.
00:28:20.793 --> 00:28:23.593
Yes, it is not my job to manage dates.
00:28:23.593 --> 00:28:26.259
It is not my job to manage time.
00:28:26.259 --> 00:28:28.326
It is my job to manage output.
00:28:28.326 --> 00:28:29.160
Yes.
00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:37.192
Um, if if not, if you're not managing that output, you have come across that coach correct or cut moment.
00:28:37.192 --> 00:28:37.759
Yes.
00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:40.059
Go back and listen to that episode if you haven't listened to it.
00:28:40.059 --> 00:28:42.326
Hint hint wink wink nudge nudge.
00:28:42.326 --> 00:28:53.960
Um, the other thing that I that, like I said, the, the, if you are saying do more is a recipe for less because once again, as you ask for more people are going to be like, oh, they want more.
00:28:53.960 --> 00:28:55.460
Well, I'm going to stop doing more.
00:28:55.460 --> 00:28:56.460
I'm gonna slow down.
00:28:56.460 --> 00:28:56.925
Right.
00:28:56.925 --> 00:28:58.660
So that way they don't ask for more.
00:28:58.660 --> 00:29:05.660
Um, a hundred percent capacity leads to quantity over quality.
00:29:05.660 --> 00:29:06.026
Yeah.
00:29:06.026 --> 00:29:07.992
They get burnt out one hundred percent.
00:29:07.992 --> 00:29:12.360
If you don't give people a finish line, they will stop running.
00:29:12.360 --> 00:29:13.925
Um, there.
00:29:13.925 --> 00:29:16.326
I do not have any Forrest Gump's working for me.
00:29:16.326 --> 00:29:17.860
They aren't just going to keep running.
00:29:17.860 --> 00:29:21.526
No, I have to like I. Hey everyone, this is a five K.
00:29:21.526 --> 00:29:22.393
Yeah.
00:29:22.393 --> 00:29:24.492
Hey, we're walking around the corner.
00:29:24.492 --> 00:29:26.293
Um, hey, maybe this is a marathon.
00:29:26.293 --> 00:29:28.026
This is going to be long and difficult.
00:29:28.026 --> 00:29:30.559
This is not run for five months straight.
00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:31.992
No one wants to do that.
00:29:31.992 --> 00:29:33.692
Not I mean, no they can't.
00:29:33.692 --> 00:29:35.326
No, they just, they can't.
00:29:35.326 --> 00:29:44.960
Um, the thing that I see is one of the reasons why it doesn't work to is people like, well, we need this collaborative environment.
00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:45.992
How many meetings?
00:29:45.992 --> 00:29:46.692
Right?
00:29:46.692 --> 00:29:51.960
How many meetings have you been in, Chrissie, where it's passing out information?
00:29:51.960 --> 00:29:53.160
This could have been an email.
00:29:53.160 --> 00:29:57.759
This could have been one hundred percent that this could have been an email meeting one hundred percent.
00:29:57.759 --> 00:30:07.860
I'm working with someone right now on this very specific thing where I'm like, look, the next meeting we have, we're not going over things that you've typed out.
00:30:07.860 --> 00:30:10.526
Yeah, we have those two days in advance.
00:30:10.526 --> 00:30:10.860
Yeah.
00:30:10.860 --> 00:30:12.860
And we will discuss those things.
00:30:12.860 --> 00:30:16.460
If it is not brainstorming, I generally don't want to have a meeting.
00:30:16.460 --> 00:30:18.893
Like when we we do a leadership team meeting every week.
00:30:18.893 --> 00:30:22.726
And in that, there has there is there are problem solving.
00:30:22.726 --> 00:30:24.059
There are action steps there to do's.
00:30:24.059 --> 00:30:27.125
I think one of our first episodes was about meetings.
00:30:27.125 --> 00:30:29.360
We talked about to do's to to duns and all the things.
00:30:29.360 --> 00:30:36.125
And I know like ninety percent, I would say eighty percent, I think eighty percent in our office.
00:30:36.125 --> 00:30:40.826
Like if it's not brainstorming or like we don't do just information unless it's state of the company.
00:30:40.826 --> 00:30:44.259
And even then it is, this is the direction we're going, this is what's happening.
00:30:44.259 --> 00:30:48.160
And we're having this conversation because if there are questions, we need to talk about it.
00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:48.559
Correct.
00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:49.860
And we need context.
00:30:49.860 --> 00:30:50.460
Correct.
00:30:50.460 --> 00:30:51.360
Yeah.
00:30:51.360 --> 00:30:52.860
Um, the, the.
00:30:55.160 --> 00:31:01.526
To have someone in the office, if you're bringing people like I remember this as plain as day I started work for a company.
00:31:01.526 --> 00:31:04.160
I wasn't there very long, thankfully.
00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:06.492
My first four days, I came into the company.
00:31:06.492 --> 00:31:10.893
My first four days I had fourteen Zoom meetings.
00:31:15.492 --> 00:31:17.393
I have no words, right?
00:31:17.393 --> 00:31:24.425
I mean, that is when like literally on day three, I was like, I have made a terrible mistake.
00:31:24.425 --> 00:31:30.425
I mean, I know that I have weeks like that sometimes and I'm just mad at myself as I did it to me, but I can't.
00:31:30.425 --> 00:31:32.160
Why would you ever do that to somebody?
00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:36.860
It's one thing if you do it to yourself and you're dumb, but why would you do that to you as a business owner?
00:31:36.860 --> 00:31:37.860
No, I would never.
00:31:37.860 --> 00:31:39.160
Oh my God, we're doing outreach.
00:31:39.160 --> 00:31:40.026
We're doing other things.
00:31:40.026 --> 00:31:42.160
We're it's different as a business.
00:31:42.160 --> 00:31:43.293
Want them to come back.
00:31:43.293 --> 00:31:44.960
Clearly, they didn't want you to come back.
00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:51.093
No, no. And I mean, to me once again, like office days should be for what I like to call the high friction activities.
00:31:51.093 --> 00:31:54.526
Those are the things where people need collaboration SOP reviews.
00:31:54.526 --> 00:31:55.026
Yeah.
00:31:55.026 --> 00:32:00.593
Um, these discussion things where it's tough to interact and it's, uh, Zoom.
00:32:00.593 --> 00:32:05.660
The thing that's tough on Zoom and is interactions are slower.
00:32:05.660 --> 00:32:12.625
Uh, if someone needs to speak up, there's that half a second delay where you can't be like, oh, wait a minute, what about the this?
00:32:12.625 --> 00:32:13.860
Exactly.
00:32:13.860 --> 00:32:14.925
Zoom meetings are slower.
00:32:14.925 --> 00:32:16.326
They don't carry some of that momentum.
00:32:16.326 --> 00:32:19.160
So if you can have people in for that, do it well.
00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:25.559
It can be hard when you're learning new things or you're, you're doing a rollout of something that's vitally important to your organization.
00:32:25.559 --> 00:32:28.125
I think it's really important that you have everybody in the room together.
00:32:28.125 --> 00:32:31.992
It is not necessary for just an update.
00:33:09.322 --> 00:33:15.255
No, no. Um, one of my favorite things is what I like to call the home day sanctuary.
00:33:15.255 --> 00:33:24.990
Um, I know, I know you have the same problem that I do is you start working on something, the phone rings, start working on something, get a message, start working on something.
00:33:24.990 --> 00:33:25.755
Something else happens.
00:33:25.755 --> 00:33:27.690
People walk into my office, right?
00:33:27.690 --> 00:33:28.789
All the time, right?
00:33:28.789 --> 00:33:29.289
Yes.
00:33:29.289 --> 00:33:38.155
If someone's working from home and they're getting stuff done, leave them the hell alone.
00:33:38.155 --> 00:33:38.655
Yeah.
00:33:38.655 --> 00:33:40.690
Stop distracting them.
00:33:40.690 --> 00:33:42.522
Stop sending them ten messages.
00:33:42.522 --> 00:33:44.490
Stop making them think.
00:33:44.490 --> 00:33:49.556
How do I have to look productive to this stupid program on my computer?
00:33:49.556 --> 00:33:50.423
Mhm.
00:33:50.423 --> 00:33:53.089
Just let them work.
00:33:53.089 --> 00:33:53.923
Yes.
00:33:53.923 --> 00:33:55.822
That's what you need to do.
00:33:55.822 --> 00:34:03.056
Uh, to me, it drives me absolutely insane when people are like, hey, just wanted to check, like, are you working?
00:34:04.190 --> 00:34:05.022
Yeah.
00:34:05.022 --> 00:34:06.889
Yeah, I sure am.
00:34:06.889 --> 00:34:14.356
Um, it just drives me absolutely nuts when like, you've got someone that's in a situation where they can work without distraction.
00:34:14.356 --> 00:34:15.623
So true.
00:34:15.623 --> 00:34:19.856
You don't have me stopping by their desk going, hey, how's it going today?
00:34:19.856 --> 00:34:20.190
Right.
00:34:20.190 --> 00:34:27.456
No. And if their doors shut, if they are working in a regular environment and the doors shut or they've got their donuts, like, could you just let them do their thing?
00:34:27.456 --> 00:34:28.523
Just leave them alone.
00:34:30.289 --> 00:34:34.690
Uh, going off some of our like, this one's going to be interesting.
00:34:34.690 --> 00:34:36.255
Um, do you guys use Slack?
00:34:36.255 --> 00:34:37.222
We do not.
00:34:37.222 --> 00:34:38.289
We have teams.
00:34:38.289 --> 00:34:40.556
Okay, so you use the messenger in there.
00:34:40.556 --> 00:34:43.155
So one team uses the messenger in teams a lot.
00:34:43.155 --> 00:34:45.789
The other one they're they're email people.
00:34:45.789 --> 00:34:46.190
Okay.
00:34:46.190 --> 00:34:48.822
Email is how we we use we use Google chat.
00:34:48.822 --> 00:34:49.289
Yeah.
00:34:49.289 --> 00:34:51.056
Um, we have a lot of remote employees.
00:34:51.056 --> 00:34:51.623
Yeah.
00:34:51.623 --> 00:34:55.155
Um, and WhatsApp, we use WhatsApp.
00:34:55.155 --> 00:34:55.889
I'm like, wait a second.
00:34:55.889 --> 00:34:56.989
We use, we use WhatsApp.
00:34:56.989 --> 00:34:57.455
Oh, WhatsApp.
00:34:57.455 --> 00:34:57.690
Okay.
00:34:57.690 --> 00:35:00.190
Makes sense with that.
00:35:00.190 --> 00:35:00.690
Yeah.
00:35:00.690 --> 00:35:10.455
How many times do you see or know of or at least have heard of in companies where there's the, the once again, we talked about the meeting after the meeting.
00:35:11.455 --> 00:35:14.955
How many side text messages do you see sometimes.
00:35:14.955 --> 00:35:16.889
Oh, yeah.
00:35:16.889 --> 00:35:20.022
And to me, once again, Slack is the new hallway.
00:35:20.022 --> 00:35:20.989
Exactly.
00:35:20.989 --> 00:35:22.190
It's the new water cooler.
00:35:22.190 --> 00:35:22.489
Yep.
00:35:22.489 --> 00:35:24.190
Without visibility.
00:35:24.190 --> 00:35:24.655
Right.
00:35:24.655 --> 00:35:26.355
Because you don't see what's going on.
00:35:26.355 --> 00:35:26.589
Right.
00:35:26.589 --> 00:35:28.955
Depending on how it's worded, how it's worded, how it's worked.
00:35:28.955 --> 00:35:30.822
Like same thing with text messages.
00:35:30.822 --> 00:35:34.789
Like, you know, when you're on a virtual, okay, we're gonna squirrel.
00:35:34.789 --> 00:35:35.355
Yes.
00:35:35.355 --> 00:35:36.289
No, let's do this.
00:35:36.289 --> 00:35:38.623
You're on the Zoom meeting and you're watching.
00:35:38.623 --> 00:35:39.190
And I've done this.
00:35:39.190 --> 00:35:45.989
I've watched it in other organizations or I've been in I already know I've been in organizations and like they're talking and I'm a conscious observer.
00:35:45.989 --> 00:36:01.555
And all of a sudden I see, I see eyes, I see divert down, I see hands I don't necessarily see like phone, they're not phoning, but and then all of a sudden I see another person just pop up and then they look down at their phone and I'm like, I know what they're doing.
00:36:01.555 --> 00:36:08.955
Like you are having a side conversation or you're all on your laptops, and then all of a sudden one pops up and somebody's like, and they're like typing.
00:36:08.955 --> 00:36:12.922
I'm like, why are you on an email and not in this meeting?
00:36:12.922 --> 00:36:14.355
Why are you not paying attention?
00:36:14.355 --> 00:36:15.555
And to me, it's going on.
00:36:15.555 --> 00:36:26.922
The thing is, is why are you not smart enough to realize that if I see one person typing, then I see another person typing.
00:36:26.922 --> 00:36:35.155
I'm going to connect those dots and I know exactly how to look like I'm not doing that, but I know exactly when people are doing it and when I'm facilitating and I see that happen.
00:36:35.155 --> 00:36:39.755
I'm usually like, hey, so Alicia, tell me what you think about this topic.
00:36:39.755 --> 00:36:45.389
Like, I am that person and people are just like, say, no, I hate her.
00:36:45.389 --> 00:36:46.389
Why is she making me?
00:36:46.389 --> 00:36:52.155
And I'm like, no, no, no. Like we just, I'm like, hey, sounds it looks to me like you may have a question or you may have some comments.
00:36:52.155 --> 00:36:59.655
Let's it's to me talk that is the like those are the ones though, when you realize that, okay, we have a hybrid issue.
00:36:59.655 --> 00:37:02.589
Yeah, that is the, that is the water cooler or we have a call.
00:37:02.589 --> 00:37:03.389
We have a culture issue.
00:37:03.389 --> 00:37:03.989
We have a cult.
00:37:03.989 --> 00:37:07.189
Like we have a culture issue with those types of things.
00:37:07.189 --> 00:37:17.789
Um, like I said, I'm at least smart enough that if I see someone in a meeting and I know they just texted me, I'm probably going to wait a solid minute and a half, two minutes before I pick up my phone.
00:37:17.789 --> 00:37:18.522
Yeah.
00:37:18.522 --> 00:37:21.922
Snark exists in a virtual hybrid and an in-person environment.
00:37:21.922 --> 00:37:23.189
It doesn't matter.
00:37:23.189 --> 00:37:24.889
It goes everywhere.
00:37:24.889 --> 00:37:34.355
I just to me, it's one of those things where like, once again, this is a way to keep the finger on the pulse because everyone's like, I've lost control of everything.
00:37:34.355 --> 00:37:36.089
When people are hybrid or remote.
00:37:36.089 --> 00:37:40.522
And to me, once again, those conversations, you can see them.
00:37:40.522 --> 00:37:43.622
Yes, remotely just as well as you can in person.
00:37:43.622 --> 00:37:44.789
Yeah you can.
00:37:44.789 --> 00:37:49.089
But I would say if decisions happen in those side chats, you're breaking alignment and accountability.
00:37:49.089 --> 00:38:01.455
So one hundred percent as a manager, it's really important that if you see that happening, you bring it back together, which again, that's why I'm like, hey, looks like you have something that you may need to say or, you know, you look, I saw a look on your face.
00:38:01.455 --> 00:38:02.455
Are you are you confused?
00:38:02.455 --> 00:38:03.889
Do you have a question?
00:38:03.889 --> 00:38:05.655
How can I help?
00:38:05.655 --> 00:38:06.655
How can I explain this?
00:38:06.655 --> 00:38:08.455
I don't feel like I'm connecting with you.
00:38:08.455 --> 00:38:13.355
Trust me, I'm sure the four and five letter words that they have for me when I'm asking those questions, I don't care.
00:38:13.355 --> 00:38:14.422
That's why I'm there.
00:38:14.422 --> 00:38:15.655
That's what I get paid to do.
00:38:15.655 --> 00:38:17.655
I have I have called people out before.
00:38:17.655 --> 00:38:18.322
Absolutely.
00:38:18.322 --> 00:38:23.422
Um, I'm so Bob, what are you and Denise talking about?
00:38:23.422 --> 00:38:24.255
Yeah.
00:38:24.255 --> 00:38:29.122
Now, if I'm at a board meeting or a networking meeting, that happens all the time and I'm totally okay with it.
00:38:29.122 --> 00:38:31.689
I'm usually the ringleader of the text message, but.
00:38:33.422 --> 00:38:38.989
if we're in a work environment, if we're in a facilitative environment, I want your attention.
00:38:38.989 --> 00:38:46.689
That being said, um, to me, one of the like the big advantage that I see with hybrid, you share, you save office space.
00:38:46.689 --> 00:38:47.255
Yeah.
00:38:47.255 --> 00:38:52.389
Um, as an employer, um, as an employee, you've got freedom.
00:38:52.389 --> 00:38:54.489
You've got, and I mean, like, look, that is the number.
00:38:54.489 --> 00:38:58.622
Like when people say no one wants to work anymore for you, right?
00:38:58.622 --> 00:39:08.055
If, if I've got the ability to take a doctor's appointment at two o'clock in the afternoon without getting ten zero zero zero questions, that's it.
00:39:08.055 --> 00:39:08.855
Wonderful.
00:39:08.855 --> 00:39:09.422
Mhm.
00:39:09.422 --> 00:39:12.889
Um, that hybrid environment allows that.
00:39:12.889 --> 00:39:16.355
Now, granted, you should still probably say, hey, I'm going to be away from my desk for that amount of time.
00:39:16.355 --> 00:39:16.855
Yeah.
00:39:16.855 --> 00:39:19.355
Um, and flexibility, it's flexibility too.
00:39:19.355 --> 00:39:23.989
I mean, even if you're in an in-person environment to have that flexibility.
00:39:23.989 --> 00:39:25.889
I mean, that's really the, the big thing.
00:39:25.889 --> 00:39:30.755
I mean, have you ever watched the, like through some of your remote workers.
00:39:30.755 --> 00:39:33.822
Have you ever watched that spark disappear?
00:39:33.822 --> 00:39:38.155
Or the eyes go dim where you're like, uh oh, uh oh, we're losing them.
00:39:38.155 --> 00:39:41.022
Yeah, we're losing them.
00:39:41.022 --> 00:39:42.089
We're losing them.
00:39:42.089 --> 00:39:43.689
They're falling off the hook.
00:39:43.689 --> 00:39:45.289
Yeah, yeah, I have.
00:39:45.289 --> 00:39:47.289
I mean, and then you got to figure out how to get them back.
00:39:47.289 --> 00:39:48.089
Like, what's going on?
00:39:48.089 --> 00:39:49.522
Like, is it a communication gap?
00:39:49.522 --> 00:39:50.755
Is it a skills gap?
00:39:50.755 --> 00:39:53.855
Is it have we talked too long on Zoom?
00:39:53.855 --> 00:39:57.322
I, I think that yeah, it's really easy to do that.
00:39:57.322 --> 00:39:58.722
And you can still see engagement.
00:39:58.722 --> 00:40:01.955
You just have to be really intentional in how that works with employees.
00:40:01.955 --> 00:40:07.455
So yeah, and we have like, there are times where we'll do team meetings and they are, they're a hybrid meeting.
00:40:07.455 --> 00:40:10.855
We have people in a room and we have people in a different place.
00:40:10.855 --> 00:40:14.355
And so it's really important that you build that engagement too.
00:40:14.355 --> 00:40:17.455
But I would say disengagement shows up in behavior before it shows up in performance.
00:40:17.455 --> 00:40:18.722
So you see it.
00:40:18.722 --> 00:40:20.989
Yeah, you start seeing the dimming.
00:40:20.989 --> 00:40:23.722
That should be your note of like, what do I need to do?
00:40:23.722 --> 00:40:30.089
And to me though, like that dimming can be just the, that can be a culture thing or that can be a performance thing.
00:40:30.089 --> 00:40:30.655
Yeah.
00:40:30.655 --> 00:40:34.055
And once again, if it's a culture thing, look to see how you're monitoring people.
00:40:34.055 --> 00:40:41.855
Are you monitoring their performance or are you monitoring their, their visibility, so to say, have awareness around it?
00:40:41.855 --> 00:40:42.922
Yeah.
00:40:42.922 --> 00:40:45.689
Um, a couple of key actions and takeaways.
00:40:45.689 --> 00:40:48.155
These, these are going to be interesting.
00:40:48.155 --> 00:40:51.855
Um, the one is to me is define done.
00:40:51.855 --> 00:40:52.489
Yes.
00:40:52.489 --> 00:40:53.855
Um, let people have that.
00:40:53.855 --> 00:41:00.855
If you cannot tell your employee exactly what finished for the day, looks like you aren't ready for hybrid work.
00:41:00.855 --> 00:41:01.555
Yeah.
00:41:01.555 --> 00:41:08.989
And I would say in addition to defining done, you have to define the difference between busy and done.
00:41:08.989 --> 00:41:13.689
Because if your team doesn't know when work is complete, they're going to default to staying busy.
00:41:13.689 --> 00:41:15.489
Clarity creates completion.
00:41:15.489 --> 00:41:15.689
Yeah.
00:41:15.689 --> 00:41:16.655
Don't move the goalposts.
00:41:16.655 --> 00:41:17.955
Don't move the goalposts.
00:41:17.955 --> 00:41:25.755
Um, to me, the other one is, is like, if you have the salary bias is what I like to say is audit your salary bias.
00:41:25.755 --> 00:41:34.355
Um, if you are punishing your fastest workers by giving them the reward of more work to do than your slow workers for the same pay.
00:41:34.355 --> 00:41:34.955
Yeah.
00:41:36.189 --> 00:41:37.122
Ever seen that?
00:41:37.122 --> 00:41:39.722
I have, I've seen I see it all the time I have.
00:41:39.722 --> 00:41:41.055
And that's why those people leave.
00:41:41.055 --> 00:41:44.055
And you're like, I don't understand why only good people left or nobody wants to work.
00:41:44.055 --> 00:41:45.322
It's because you did it wrong.
00:41:46.422 --> 00:41:47.589
It's really simple.
00:41:47.589 --> 00:41:48.922
Usually when you're like, I don't know.
00:41:48.922 --> 00:41:51.055
I'm like, it's because you did it wrong, but that's okay.
00:41:51.055 --> 00:41:51.889
Do you want to do it right?
00:41:51.889 --> 00:41:53.089
Do you want to do it wrong?
00:41:53.089 --> 00:41:59.589
Um, I would say in addition, we reward results, not residents hours.
00:41:59.589 --> 00:41:59.955
Yes.
00:41:59.955 --> 00:42:01.889
Lots of hours reward results, not residents.
00:42:01.889 --> 00:42:03.955
So a person who gets it done fastest gets more work.
00:42:03.955 --> 00:42:06.022
You're punishing performance so similar.
00:42:06.022 --> 00:42:07.655
It's similar to auditing the salary bias.
00:42:07.655 --> 00:42:08.722
We don't reward time.
00:42:08.722 --> 00:42:10.222
We reward impact.
00:42:10.222 --> 00:42:11.189
Yep.
00:42:11.189 --> 00:42:16.722
Um, one that I like is the date like the date and expectation driven management.
00:42:16.722 --> 00:42:21.122
If everyone gets the thing one hundred percent done, give them a reward.
00:42:21.122 --> 00:42:22.255
Reward for that.
00:42:22.255 --> 00:42:22.789
Yeah.
00:42:22.789 --> 00:42:24.055
Um, it's done.
00:42:24.055 --> 00:42:24.722
It's on time.
00:42:24.722 --> 00:42:25.289
It's delivered.
00:42:25.289 --> 00:42:26.189
Well, great.
00:42:26.189 --> 00:42:26.955
Let's celebrate.
00:42:26.955 --> 00:42:27.955
We got it done.
00:42:27.955 --> 00:42:28.755
Let's celebrate.
00:42:28.755 --> 00:42:29.555
They got it done.
00:42:29.555 --> 00:42:31.889
Celebrate them! Yes, yes.
00:42:31.889 --> 00:42:33.389
Um. Quick shot.
00:42:33.389 --> 00:42:34.022
Yep.
00:42:34.022 --> 00:42:35.222
Camera on or off?
00:42:35.222 --> 00:42:36.989
Oh, God.
00:42:36.989 --> 00:42:37.855
Okay.
00:42:37.855 --> 00:42:40.989
It depends on the meeting and it depends on what they're doing.
00:42:40.989 --> 00:42:46.955
I am always a strong proponent on for the sake of understanding cameras on because body language is important.
00:42:46.955 --> 00:42:47.289
It is.
00:42:47.289 --> 00:42:51.422
And you want to eliminate the sidebar conversations of people truly texting all the time.
00:42:51.422 --> 00:42:52.822
Make the cameras be on.
00:42:52.822 --> 00:42:57.555
So collaboration cameras on if it's just information cameras optional.
00:42:57.555 --> 00:43:05.689
And when I say just information, like it's a mandated thing that everybody has to be on, like maybe it's a like required government training.
00:43:05.689 --> 00:43:11.655
So I really am a, I'm a huge proponent of cameras on because I think it's just really important as humans.
00:43:11.655 --> 00:43:14.155
So, but don't confuse visibility with value.
00:43:14.155 --> 00:43:18.389
If you consistently need to coach, then you, you need, you need to see engagement.
00:43:18.389 --> 00:43:20.189
I wholeheartedly agree with all that.
00:43:20.189 --> 00:43:24.755
To me, it's it's it's for the most part, I ask for cameras to be on.
00:43:24.755 --> 00:43:25.822
And it's just.
00:43:25.822 --> 00:43:28.289
And once again, the.
00:43:28.289 --> 00:43:32.755
I feel pressure to make sure that I am delivering value.
00:43:32.755 --> 00:43:35.922
Yeah, because this person had to get up.
00:43:35.922 --> 00:43:40.789
They had to some way, shape or form put themselves together for this.
00:43:40.789 --> 00:43:46.289
I need to make this as quick and as painless and as effective as possible.
00:43:46.289 --> 00:43:48.955
Well, and here's the other thing I say is the leader model.
00:43:48.955 --> 00:43:50.955
Again, we talk about model, but you mandate model.
00:43:50.955 --> 00:43:56.689
The behavior you want to see there is like, I want people to be engaged when I'm talking to them.
00:43:56.689 --> 00:43:59.089
So when they are talking, I need to be engaged too.
00:43:59.089 --> 00:44:02.022
Which means as the leader, your camera should never be off.
00:44:02.022 --> 00:44:02.389
Correct?
00:44:02.389 --> 00:44:03.389
Ever.
00:44:03.389 --> 00:44:04.422
Correct.
00:44:04.422 --> 00:44:07.922
Like there has to be a significant reason as to why your camera is off.
00:44:07.922 --> 00:44:12.189
Like you're, you're like in the hospital and you got to take a meeting.
00:44:13.989 --> 00:44:15.855
I've done that once.
00:44:15.855 --> 00:44:19.455
Same hospital, like an emergency room.
00:44:19.455 --> 00:44:20.855
Not with me, not me, wasn't me.
00:44:20.855 --> 00:44:21.822
I was there with somebody else.
00:44:21.822 --> 00:44:23.455
But yes, that's it.
00:44:23.455 --> 00:44:36.989
Like you do not like your camera's always on because you need to be the like you model what you want to see at the hospital was upset with me because I put my shirt on because I was like, in the client was like, is that a hospital bed?
00:44:36.989 --> 00:44:38.889
Yeah, I'm good, I'm good.
00:44:38.889 --> 00:44:39.589
It's not a problem.
00:44:39.589 --> 00:44:40.555
No problem.
00:44:40.555 --> 00:44:44.489
So what's a tool that's mandatory for a hybrid team to me?
00:44:44.489 --> 00:44:46.722
Like you have to have some sort of task management.
00:44:46.722 --> 00:44:47.889
Like we use asana.
00:44:47.889 --> 00:44:48.755
Mhm.
00:44:48.755 --> 00:44:49.689
Big proponent for that.
00:44:49.689 --> 00:44:55.055
But there's I mean Clickup there's Airtable, there's all sorts of other stuff because once again what's done.
00:44:55.055 --> 00:44:55.455
Yeah.
00:44:55.455 --> 00:44:56.289
When is it done.
00:44:56.289 --> 00:44:57.089
How is it done.
00:44:57.089 --> 00:45:03.255
And yeah, the beauty of that is, you know, when it's done.
00:45:03.255 --> 00:45:06.855
Ah, I like we, we use a ton of triggers.
00:45:06.855 --> 00:45:15.189
So when like, let's say Lance the editor, when he's done with ten things, it lets me know, hey, Josh, it's your turn.
00:45:15.189 --> 00:45:15.789
Yes.
00:45:15.789 --> 00:45:21.255
Which means, hey, I just automatically know Lance did the things.
00:45:21.255 --> 00:45:21.622
Yes.
00:45:21.622 --> 00:45:25.222
Imagine that it doesn't just live in Lance's head.
00:45:25.222 --> 00:45:26.089
Correct.
00:45:26.089 --> 00:45:27.255
I know, it's all so.
00:45:27.255 --> 00:45:34.489
Yeah, to me, you have to have a tool for remote workers that tracks, once again, productivity.
00:45:34.489 --> 00:45:34.822
Yeah.
00:45:34.822 --> 00:45:38.489
Like, is it getting done in the time that it's supposed to get done to?
00:45:38.489 --> 00:45:41.455
That to me is just a really big thing.
00:45:41.455 --> 00:45:48.055
That being said, um, speaking of tools, yeah, you've used a number of AI tools.
00:45:48.055 --> 00:45:48.622
Yes.
00:45:48.622 --> 00:45:50.855
We use a lot of AI tools.
00:45:50.855 --> 00:45:52.589
We aren't going to talk about those next week.
00:45:52.589 --> 00:45:55.922
No. Uh, I wanted to build I wanted to get everyone excited.
00:45:55.922 --> 00:45:56.889
We're gonna talk about those.
00:45:56.889 --> 00:45:57.889
We're gonna talk about AI.
00:45:57.889 --> 00:46:04.222
No, we're going to talk about a innovation that isn't AI.
00:46:04.222 --> 00:46:09.089
Because right now, so many people, when they say innovation, they automatically go to AI.
00:46:09.089 --> 00:46:10.422
I thought, you know what?
00:46:10.422 --> 00:46:18.622
Let's talk about making sure like if I love that if everyone's innovating through AI, that's not innovation anymore.
00:46:18.622 --> 00:46:20.522
You're just following the trend.
00:46:20.522 --> 00:46:21.955
So guess what we need to do.
00:46:21.955 --> 00:46:24.955
We need to talk about how you're going to innovate.
00:46:24.955 --> 00:46:26.789
Besides AI.
00:46:26.789 --> 00:46:28.622
Oh yeah.
00:46:28.622 --> 00:46:30.655
Are you thinking what I'm going to do?
00:46:30.655 --> 00:46:32.222
I got it.
00:46:32.222 --> 00:46:34.055
It's exciting.
00:46:34.055 --> 00:46:37.789
This is not a surprise look on our face to everyone out there.
00:46:37.789 --> 00:46:38.655
Thank you very much.
00:46:38.655 --> 00:46:40.889
What's a topic that you would like us to cover?
00:46:40.889 --> 00:46:41.989
We love getting the feedback.
00:46:41.989 --> 00:46:43.155
We love the comments.
00:46:43.155 --> 00:46:47.789
By all means, keep those coming in business fix podcast dot com.
00:46:47.789 --> 00:46:48.689
Make sure you go.
00:46:48.689 --> 00:46:50.989
You visit, you say hi, send us an email.
00:46:50.989 --> 00:46:52.889
All that happy jazz.
00:46:52.889 --> 00:46:53.755
Do us a favor.
00:46:53.755 --> 00:46:54.489
Take care of yourself.
00:46:54.489 --> 00:46:56.089
If you can take care of someone else too.
00:46:56.089 --> 00:46:59.489
We will see you very, very soon.