Steven Kotler | Why Your Biggest Limitation Isn't Talent: Rewiring Beliefs Through Flow

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Flows a high energy state. You need seven eight hours
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of sleep a night, take regularly access that. You need hydration,
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c clouds of water. You need equality nutrition through your energy,
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and you need to regularly manage your nervous Because we
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talked about that challenge skills balanced too much anxiety, and
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we live in this world. We're all hyper anxious. You
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get blocked from flung with I work with people. I
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got a checklist, you got five minutes. Give me a
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daily gratitude practice because it will lower anxiety. You've got
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six minutes read a novel. Seven to fifteen, Brent work
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mindful us. You've got fifteen to twenty. You go for
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a walk in h You've got twenty to forty. It's exercise.
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You're super stressed due to of those things.
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One if your biggest limitations are about talent, what about belief?
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In this conversation, Stephen Cotler and I were how flow
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states can rewire the stories we tell ourselves, expand what
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we think is possible, and radically upgrade performance. We talk
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about fear, resilience, peak states, and the science behind becoming
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more capable than you thought you were. This one is
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about stretching your edge and discovering what actually happens when
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you do. My name is doctor flee Mall your co
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host for this session, and I'm really thrilled to be
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here today with none other than Steven Coytler. Welcome Stephen.
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Good to be with you, plead.
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So in your book The Art of Impossible, you explore
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the science and peak performance. So pouse significance is the
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role of beliefs, the belief we have, the beliefs we have,
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the beliefs we inherited that were conditioned into us in
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determining our ability to perform at that highest level. So
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we just get into the hold re frac.
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Yeah, at least I think there's a part answer to
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this question. Part one is helpful to talk about what
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psychologists call the Banister effect. So most people are froming
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with the Roger Banister run the first sub four minute mile.
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The slightly larger version of the story is it took
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forever mile times dropped, you know, a fraction of a
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second a decade, for like eighty years before Banister does it.
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Nobody believes he can do it, completely impossible. There are
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New York Times editorials written by doctors at the time.
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We say the first person runs a sub four mile
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is going to die and you know you should have
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a hearse waiting from it. The finish line and Banister
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breaks the record, and that's amazing. But what's really interesting
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is what happens next. Within a month, somebody else has
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reading this record. Within a couple of months, a bunch
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of other people who have done it. Within a couple
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of years, teenagers have done it, women have done it.
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And you've got to ask yourself what changed?
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Right?
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The physical task of running a sub four mile remained
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the same. The only thing that changed was our belief
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What was believed to be impossible became possible, and suddenly
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became possible for a whole lot more more people. This
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is known as a Banister effect, and we sort of
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understand why it happens. There's just a very tight correlation
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between our beliefs, our visual system, and our ability to
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enact on the world. That's part one. Part two is
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the thing that has come out of my research on
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ACoM performance and especially the relationship with altered states like
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flow or even psychedelic experiences. Or we can very quickly
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overwrite limiting beliefs and change limiting beliefs. So yes on
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everything you said, make sure nurture a million other things.
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I think flow these state of our performance is a
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real big role a belief gets laid down. But I
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think that really important point is one it's very tied
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to performance, deeply tied to performance and what we can
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actually do in the world. And two it's very easy
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to overwrite those beliefs if you know what you're doing.
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So well, let's talk about that. So we know from
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for a neuroscience who've known this for a while, what's
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called neuroplasticity, that the brain can change, our nervous system
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can be rewired, so to speak. So certainly, I think
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the sign shows that flow states and a lot of
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your workaround flow states to facilitate that. But maybe if
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you could talk specifically how we dismantle beliefs that may
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be hampering our performance. And is that done just organically
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by being in flow states, or do we need to
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like look at what are some of those specific beliefs
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that are holding us back and either deconstruct those or
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ride them or replace them in the two beliefs. How
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does all this work?
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There's a bunch of different there's a million techniques there, right,
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and let's just start at the really simple end and
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work our way up to sort of more complicated techniques,
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and don't let me go on for too long because
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it as they could go everywhere. But things that I
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think about on the front end, and one of the
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things that you know, my organization is lucky enough to
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train people in like one hundred and fifty countries, twenty
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eight industries, so we have a really good map of
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sort of globally what works what doesn't at a very
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diverse level. And as you mentioned, we focus on the
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neurobiology of peak performance. That's what we study, that's what
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we steer our trainings with. And on the low end,
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on the front end is just like a simple filter
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when you're looking at Yes, I think it's helpful to
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look at your beliefs limiting or not. And one of
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the things I always point out is people rarely trust
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their own history. History is proof of what you can
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and can't do. It's really clear if you look at it,
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and most people never stop that. Like people who live
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with a victim mindset, who think the world you know,
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happens to them, who have a fixed mindset around around
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learning and growth and talent and things like that, often
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don't bother to look at their own life. Your life
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is a lot of layers of success that contradict your beliefs,
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especially as limiting beliefs. One of the first things I
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have people do is sort of do an inventory of
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like what you've actually achieved, the skills you sort of
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needed to achieve them, and how that list either you know,
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matches up or doesn't matches up with your beliefs about yourself.
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So that's really low under stuff at the really extreme around.
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I don't know exactly, and I don't think anybody does.
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Where beliefs come from, so just nature some of its nurture.
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We know that memory is underpinned by neurals, Right, the
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more neural comicals that show up during the experience, the
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better chance that experience has going short term molding to
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long arm storage. So one way or another, we can
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think of beliefs as very potent memories that act in
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a Baysian senses priors. Right, this is the thing that
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determines the probability of our predictions about the future, which
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is essentially what the brain is doing all the time.
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That's sort of how I think about those beliefs. BLOW
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can overwrite them very very quickly. And the really interesting
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proof there my lab where a paper a couple of
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years ago they should up the neurosigns about behavior reviews
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and what happens in the brand first couple of seconds
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of flow. And one of the things that we learned
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in that paper and in doing that research is that
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flow overwrites PTSD EESCSD is a very called a strong
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memory or a really strong belief about how the world is,
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and flow can overwrite it very quickly. I've worked with
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a number of three letter agencies and other branches of
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the military terrorist training camps. They're putting people into flow
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and then telling them what to believe. I always tell people,
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when you're in flow, don't ever let make people make
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meaning for you, because you're very susceptible to setting up
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new beliefs. Flow, like many psychedelics and other altered states,
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seems to open up a neuroplastic window on the back
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end of it. We don't know how long it's open,
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like we have numbers for certain things. Ketamen for example,
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opens it seventy two hour neuroplastic window, which is why
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it's so useful in treatment of mental health disorders and
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things like that blow opens up a similar window. We
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don't know how long it is because it's probably correlated
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with how long you're in flow, how deep this state is.
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There's a bunch of different factors we have to determine,
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but it seems to open this window where we can
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overwrite well believes very quickly.
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Yeah, let me just ask you to begin with the
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fine flow. I do use flow in the sense of
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Chicks and Mahalay's work, or do you have your own
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deficition now?
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So there, Yeah, I don't. One of the difficulties in
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flow research is every ten years somebody tries to redefine
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and rename flow. The scientific definition of flow is an
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optimal state of consciousness, our best and would perform our best.
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More specifically, it's any of those moments of wrapped attention
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and total absorption. So focus on the task and that
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actual awareness starts to merge, your sense of self starts
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to diminish. Time passes strangely. Usually what happens is you
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just so into what you're doing, just get sucked in.
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A couple hours go by, it feels like two minutes,
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and throughout all aspects of performance. So that's mental, physical,
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and emotional performance all skyrocket. Skyrocket is not an exaggeration.
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I can go through various data and various numbers, but
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let's just say it optimizes for everything and it's available
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all of us, which is really cool. It comes built
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in as a built in feature of being human evolution
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that shaped all of us to get into flow which
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take all of us for optimal performance. So that's how
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I think a flow. We can go into greater detail
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in any which way you want.
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Yeah, let me ask a for the question about that.
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So it seems maybe putting flow states on a spectrum
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somewhat probbly. There could be very spectrums in terms of intensity,
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but one is kind of breath. It seems some flow
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states that often have to do with really challenging ourselves
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to the edge of our abilities with kind of some
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super focus, are very narrow flow states, very data rich
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field of awareness, but maybe not a lot of broader awareness,
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like really focused in some flow states seem to be broader,
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and then some of the states with that are induced
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by psychedelics like ketamine some other mystical states maybe more
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open and broader. And then there's a question of how
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much metal awareness is present in slow the awareness that
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one is inflow, the awareness of one's self inflow, the
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awareness of how that's moving or changing. So I wonder
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if you could talk to.
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Yeah, yeah, none of these questions have fast answers, but
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let me this is work. The first question is you
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are absolutely sort of correct. We work with doctor Richard
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Husty a lot. In fact, the first few seconds lowpaper
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was written with him. So he's done really interesting work
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on this, and we've done really interesting work on this.
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We've got a couple of papers coming out. Think of
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it as a search space right. With flow, it's very
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task specific, so you have a tighter search space, but
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you have wild, almost psychedelic like connections. I'm using that
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term literally. When you look at psychedelics in the brain,
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do for wide search space. Right, the whole brain is active,
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the connections are everywhere, right, It's literally looks like a
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giant spider web of the brand. And that's what happens
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with the connections flow, same spider web, much smaller containers,
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so which all your ideas are pending along, new thoughts,
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new ideas, creativity, inivation, all that stuff, but it's on
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the task at hand. That's so I'll give you just
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like a simple example from sport. My own experience. What
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you're talking about is sometimes it broadens out, and this happens.
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Most common flow stead on Earth is reading. So I'm
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going to give you a skiing example. In a reading example,
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there roughly the same. There's an experience you have in flow.
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I have to think of it as the high perch experience.
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There's no technical term for it that I know of,
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but you sort of get this feeling like I'm two
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hundred feet above my life and I can see the
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out to the horizon and you can in a much
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greater distance than before. That seems to happen and flow,
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and there's a bunch of reasons we could talk about why,
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but I won't go into that right now. But when
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you're reading and like an idea jumps together and something
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you're like wow, and your thoughts just go, that feels
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incredibly expensive. It's a very expansive flow state, that's what
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you're talking about, but still in that container of something
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spark by what you were reading. With skiing, when I'm
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on the hill right I'm skiing the bombs. I'm entirely
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focused on what I'm doing, but I get to the
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chair left. I'm still on flow in siddenly, I'm one
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with the universe, and I'm melt think the other. And
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we know why all these things happen as well, and
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it tends to correlate with where attention goes. So one
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this is everything is very common and flow, and it
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works the same way as a meditation. If you're Buddhist
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monk and you're meditating an absolute unitary being, you are
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one with the universe. Right, slightly smallish, go your Franciscan
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non your experience only a mystica. Now you're one with
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Jesus's law. Maybe that's not quite as big as the
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incident in the universe, but it's slightly smaller, but it's
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still expansive container. I'm a surfer on a wave. I'm
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one with the way right, Still expansive and intane in
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a weird way, but much smaller. So that's sort of
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how that works in there. We understand the science that
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I can talk to the neurobiology of it. These sound
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like mystical experiences, and maybe they are. Maybe they speak
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of a higher connection, but we understand that there's biology
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that mediate them or puzzled immediate that connection.
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And I want to get into maybe different means for
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accessing flow states, but before that, still looking at how
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flow states can help either deconstruct or override limiting beliefs
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that we have. And then we can also then talk about,
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you know, how do we end up outside of the
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flow states with belief.
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Yeah, let's just talk you up beliefs about performance and
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flow in two parts, because this is really actually probably
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I can get through this quickly and then we'll go
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to your next question, and I apologize if I cut
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you off. The first thing to know is that when
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we talk about flow is aquab performance. It's really optimal.
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So McKinsey did a study of top executives and flow.
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They were port being five hundred percent more productive than
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normal the department or debt defense. Look at soldiers and
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flow doing skill acquisition tasks in they learn two hundred
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and forty to five hundred percent above normal work. My
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lab did out of University of Sydney some of the
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Harvard Creativity Innovation, creative problem solving, great decision making four
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hundred and seven hundred percent above baseline. Same thing happens
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to well being meaning purpose, life satisfact. I can go
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on and on. We now know that flow doesn't just
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overwrite PTSD like I just mentioned, it is neuroprotective against burnout, schizophrenia,
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bipolar disorder, prety AC related stress conditions, depression, and anxiety.
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And really amazing like data on that out of like
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ten thousand Verson twin studies and really solid, so amend
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asmonta stuff gets optimized. Learning was among them. So like,
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low is this extraordinary state of performance, and we see
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strength and stamina and fastric muscle response, et cetera. We
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perform at a I mean it's a step function worth
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of difference from how we normally behave. So the first
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thing that happens is we literally see ourselves performing at
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our best simultaneously. Low amplifies memory. Why because five of
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those potent field grib neurochemicals the brain to produce all
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show up and flow right, it gets locked in if
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you want to, like if close your eyes, think about
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your past, about all your happy memories. If you're thinking
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about something that is not pegged to a date, like
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an anniversary or a wedding or something like that, graduation
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as as are, you're remembering a flow state. This is
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what it does, locks an end of memory and you're
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also locking that performance in the memory. This is serving
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a growth functionship Except me I other researchers pointed out
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the flow is the engine of adult development and it's
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this way. Would go into flow, push our skills to
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the automow we level up. We see that performance and
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it gets cemented into memory, and it's a very with
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really great feelings attached to it, right like it's an
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ecstatic state. So this is the foundation of or the
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overwriting of belief. That's why that's what's happening so fast,
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and that's why it's so tightly linked with performance. I
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want to take this one step further because this is
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essentially the reasons why affirmations, sorry Louise Hayes fail so miserably,
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and gratitude works so well. Affirmation we have an internal
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bullshit detector. You know this, We all know this. It's
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very strong, it's very loud, the affirmation. But I'm looking
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in the mirror and saying you were a millionaire. I'm
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a millionaire. I'm a millionaire, I'm a millire. My brain
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is going, buddy, you work at Walmart. What are you
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talking about? Totally demotivating, it's not going to get you.
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You know, this is not the secret right gratitude worked
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because if I look in the mirror and go I
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am so hacked, I'm grateful that I woke up this morning,
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I'm alive and I'm breathing, then my brain goes, well,
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those things are true and those things are good. So
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maybe the world is a little less threatening. Maybe you're
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a little more capable than you knit right, And it
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does a bunch of foundational things. And to just take
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this one step further to tighten the link between performance
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and belief and gratitude and belief, we did a really
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great study with doctor blam Fox is probably the worlds
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of the experts right now on the neuroscience gratitudes at
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USC and we found that subjects who have regular gratitude
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practices also are way more flow prone. So it's very simple,
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like you wanre more flow in your life. One of
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the very simplest ways to do it is a daily
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gratitude practice. As all the other benefits of a gratitude
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practice lower stress, all the psychological benefits, but it'll also
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make you more flow proper.
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So absent flow and what a lot of people are
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dealing with. Although we probably all have had glimpses of
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flow in somewhere or another, but you know, the limiting
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beliefs that often hamper our performance to get in a
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way of optimizing our lives there and experience and results
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we look for tend to be fear based. You know.
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We again, as we spoke before this, what we inherit genetically,
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what we inherit epigenetically. There's our early childhood conditioning, there's
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our own adaptations to that, there's our societal conditioning as
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we start to go through school. All of that that
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influence these belief structures, and it's all influenced by what's
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called the negativity bias, the you know, the assumption of
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risk and the brains job wanted, survival frains pieces, So
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we focus more on threat than anything else. So that's
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the kind of baseline to whatever degree. And of course,
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the more trauma you mentioned flow can override trauma, the
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more trauma ptsdter is, the more exacerbated all that's going
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to be. So when we're in a state of flow,
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contrary to that, we feel safe, we feel resourced, we
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feel connected, we don't feel afraid. We have this very
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positive experience. So it would seem that flow kind of overrides.
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Being in a moment of flow can override all that conditioning,
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all that experience, all those beliefstures, all that fear, and
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at least for a moment that we're in flow, we're
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not being very influenced by all that we're outside of
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that domain. And thus, and you said that in Prints's memories,
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so that could be you know, wating a new.
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Neurobiolopis I mean that said, you just rephrased everything I
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said the best head that it's saying in a sentence.
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Well done, but yes, exactly. Yeah.
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So then how is the process then of accessing flow?
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And again we'll get into acting flow and accessing flow
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in a minute, but be in flow. You know, let's
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say we have a meditation practice and we're able to
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kind of meditate our way into some quality of flow
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every morning, or we have a gratitude practice and we're
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accessing some colored flow at least, you know, not maybe
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the super intense flow states, but we're getting to flow.
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Or even we have some things that are inducing more
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intense flow states on a regular basis. But does that
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just automatically begin to cancel out? You know? Twenty thirty
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forty or fifty years of conditioning.
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Awesome question, and all right, we need to back up
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a handful of steps before we get answer to this,
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because one, there's one belief you talked about flows, if
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it was a rare currence in our lives, it's not.
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We know to accept me. How I figured this out
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back in the sixties has been proven again and again.
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We spend five to ten percent of our work life
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inflow than without realizing it. It's a lot more common
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than people think. First of all, that's micro flow, the
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low end of the flow scale. With flows, pore characteristics,
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time violation, the vanishing is self complete focused in their diet.
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They've got like you go to work, you sit down
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to write an email to your colleague, it's supposed to
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be a pick email, and you look up an hour
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later you've written an essay. Where did time go? And
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maybe your sense of self didn't totally go away, But
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when you pop into consciousness you have to We're like, wow,
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I got to go to the bathroom, so your bodily
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awareness certainly diminished. Right, that's micro flow. Macro flow the
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really intense feels like a mystical experience. That's a rarer
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currents for sure can be made more reliable and repeatable,
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but like we're microflow all the time, and blocking microflow
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is almost immediate symptoms of burnout. As you also pointed out,
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it's amazing chick scept me out. I did it experiment
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back in the seventies. Two days of blocking microflow produced
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to extreme burnout. And when I extreme burnout, the kind
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of country paranoia, self destructive behavior I have been really
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interesting fact that I mentioned this because I think our
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lives and are definitely our offices these days, our leader
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and our companies are designed to block microflow. So I
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think that's the condition, you know, And I think society
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contributes to all of this.
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All the distraction, the continual distraction, the digital.
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So when I started training people and flow actively, it
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was then sort of let's say the late nineties, email existed,
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phones existed, people could knock on your door and you
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could get an SMS text message. That those were the
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distractions you had to block out essentially to get work done.
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And today I just finished working with we don't like
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the name manage, but a very big global consulting agency.
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Their top executor are working the c suite had an
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average of fourteen different communication channels that were required to
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open at all times, so like flack and WhatsApp and
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messages and email, and like it was, we're like unique
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complete consentration for flow. We got to talk about like
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some distraction management here, like where do you start? Sometimes
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right in the modern world, it's a little crazy. Two
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other things I want to mention around this one. If
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you have a dictim mindset, a external locus of control,
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it will completely block flow. The first thing, like you
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literally you can't your brain doesn't believe you can take
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charge of your life, so it won't expend the energy
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you're trying. Why burn the calories. So that's one limiting
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belief that has to get changed right away. If you
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really want an understanding of trauma, take a look at
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George Bonano's work. Is the global leader in the study
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of trauma and resilience and stuff is awesome. Every time
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you retell a traumatic story, you are adopting a victim mindset,
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an external locus of control. Hear, and you're giving up
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all your power and you have to get out of that.
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So you have to reframe that and get out of it.
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I don't think flow is going to help. I mean,
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flow can help prove to you that your story is wrong,
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elevate you all that stuff, But you have to stop
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telling that story if you want to get path that belief.
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Beliefs that are pretty predominant for human beings. I think
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and get reinforced by society a lot outside of the
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existence of whatever levels of trauma, just a sense of
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I'm not enough unworthiness that most of us get. You
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arrive an adult with someone, and then we have a
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whole consumer society that's reinforcing that. You know, if you
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buy this, you might be enough shortly to be loved
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by somebody. And then what a transformation isn't just about
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thinking differently, but feeling differently. Science shows us that true
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change happens when we align not just our minds, but
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also the networks in our hearts and guts. This heart
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mind connection is the key to deeper healing, resilience, and
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00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:11.319
expanded awareness. That's why I created the Heart Mind all access,
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460
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:09.039
I got to stop you there because I hear people
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say that crap all the time. I don't know anybody
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who like walks around and looks at stuff they can't
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buy and go, God, if I could just buy that
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thing I'm seeing in the advertise, when my life will
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be fulfilled. I mean, that's the message that people keep
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saying is averaging in society. But I don't know anybody
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who's that dumb. I mean, it's this first century. We
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understand advertising, we understand media. Kids get this stuff. They
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know they're being lied to. I don't think it's working
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that way. I think that's a straw dog people want
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to poke at. I think one who told you it
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was always going to feel good inside, Like, what world
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is that? And you don't want it this way? This
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lip when I meet people who are like, I want
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to live and flow all the time, No, you don't.
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All the information is in the difference. This is flow,
477
00:24:53.079 --> 00:24:56.240
this is normal life. This is like, there's the richness
478
00:24:56.240 --> 00:24:59.559
of life, the experience. All that stuff is in the difference.
479
00:24:59.599 --> 00:25:04.359
And the if it was permanent ecstasy, we would occulture
480
00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:07.359
to the ecstasy and it wouldn't notice it very quickly.
481
00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:10.480
We only get to have experiences like flow and these
482
00:25:10.519 --> 00:25:13.720
great wonderful experiences because of the difference. So I think
483
00:25:13.720 --> 00:25:16.400
there's a lot of I share the height. I don't
484
00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:18.440
buy it. I don't think any of it's true. So
485
00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:20.799
it's not that I can't talk about some of this stuff.
486
00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:23.480
But I like the presuppositions in the questions I have
487
00:25:23.559 --> 00:25:27.039
to push back against. Now, I have very strong opinions.
488
00:25:27.079 --> 00:25:29.400
They're often lessly held. So if you bring data and
489
00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:31.799
having to throw them out and have new opinions. But
490
00:25:32.680 --> 00:25:34.319
like I have to push back on some of that
491
00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:37.680
stuff because there are performance consequences for all of it.
492
00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:42.200
Well, I do think that there's a certain base level
493
00:25:42.279 --> 00:25:45.119
of a lot of unworthiness or lack of self worth
494
00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:47.119
that a lot of people experience. My basic question. We
495
00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:50.519
can argue about what's you know before, but inflow, you're
496
00:25:50.559 --> 00:25:53.960
not experiencing that. Inflow, the question of worth is not there,
497
00:25:54.039 --> 00:25:56.680
or you're feeling a natural, sensible caness and self worth.
498
00:25:56.920 --> 00:26:00.440
My question is beyond the flow. The more people have
499
00:26:00.519 --> 00:26:04.599
these flow experiences, does that then reinforce and your work.
500
00:26:04.799 --> 00:26:08.279
There's a sense of innate goodness, in a confidence in
501
00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:10.599
a self worth, so that that becomes less of a
502
00:26:10.720 --> 00:26:13.920
question in their life and they're oriented more towards start
503
00:26:13.960 --> 00:26:17.680
of manifesting from that rather than trying to confirm their
504
00:26:17.960 --> 00:26:19.720
worthiness in their life.
505
00:26:20.079 --> 00:26:24.640
To answers to that question, one though is usually taught.
506
00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:27.880
It's usually tied to goal directed behavior, right, and we're
507
00:26:27.920 --> 00:26:30.599
sort of goal directed machines as humans, and flow you
508
00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:33.200
accomplish your great deal, productivity goes up. According to mckinsie,
509
00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:35.240
five hundred percent about baseline, and that tracks with our
510
00:26:35.319 --> 00:26:37.440
data and what our clients experience and things like that,
511
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:43.480
and so flow itself may not override the belief, but success,
512
00:26:43.759 --> 00:26:47.359
proof of productivity, proof of I am denting the unverse,
513
00:26:47.359 --> 00:26:48.839
I' getting through everything I might to do this, I'm
514
00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:52.240
hiding my goals and aiding my goal. That coupled with
515
00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:58.720
flow becomes this like feedback loop. That's confidence. And interestingly
516
00:26:59.240 --> 00:27:01.000
we know, well, okay, I'm not going to go there.
517
00:27:01.079 --> 00:27:02.920
Let me tell you the other thing I can answer
518
00:27:02.920 --> 00:27:06.519
about this. So this is interesting. We you know what
519
00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:07.920
emotional set points.
520
00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:09.200
Are deplient for me?
521
00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:13.119
When we're usually by around between nine and twelve that
522
00:27:13.240 --> 00:27:15.680
we have emotional set points, this is the low point
523
00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:17.599
in our life, the worst we're ever going to feel.
524
00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:19.599
This is the playpoint, the best we're going to feel
525
00:27:19.799 --> 00:27:24.160
when we live generally in between right and nobody knows
526
00:27:24.240 --> 00:27:27.319
exactly why they set up. There's nature nurture arguments, but
527
00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:30.640
we do know that there's only a couple ways to
528
00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:34.039
move them. On the low end, you can actually start
529
00:27:34.039 --> 00:27:36.240
to feel worse. It's very hard, but the death of
530
00:27:36.279 --> 00:27:40.839
a child, chronic unemployment will do it. It'll move the
531
00:27:40.839 --> 00:27:43.400
bar move down. The only way we know to move
532
00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:47.440
the bar up is repeated access to flow. So that
533
00:27:47.559 --> 00:27:52.599
does seem to do something over time to happiness well being.
534
00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:55.400
I would also guess you're asking what push you are competence.
535
00:27:56.079 --> 00:27:58.400
I haven't seen exact data, but I think the combination
536
00:27:58.480 --> 00:28:00.799
of the gold director feedback loop that talking about in
537
00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:04.759
the up or bandwith the human experience expanding, I think
538
00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:07.039
the answer is us. But I don't you know, I
539
00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:08.799
don't have exact data on the because I don't think
540
00:28:08.799 --> 00:28:09.319
I used luck.
541
00:28:10.119 --> 00:28:14.319
And so let's start about accessing flow in order to
542
00:28:14.519 --> 00:28:17.279
enhance our performance. We want to perform at our best.
543
00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:20.000
We'd like to maybe even achieve peat performance and whatever
544
00:28:20.039 --> 00:28:24.240
aspects of our life, and that might lead to successful outcomes. However,
545
00:28:24.319 --> 00:28:26.799
we define that for ourselves. So what might be some
546
00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:31.200
of the best methods or available methods for people to
547
00:28:31.400 --> 00:28:34.279
spend more time and flow. And I assume that if
548
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:37.799
you spend more time in various levels of flow, that's
549
00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:41.519
going to increase neuroplasticity. It's going to overall get your
550
00:28:41.559 --> 00:28:44.519
neural networks reshaped in a direction where you're going to
551
00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:48.680
overall have more access to flow, less tendency to move
552
00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:51.960
into outer flow and interfere. And so how does that
553
00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:53.759
process work and what it might be some of the
554
00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:56.720
levers and what might be some of the specific tools
555
00:28:56.720 --> 00:29:00.359
that people can use to build their capacity in that direction.
556
00:29:00.839 --> 00:29:03.319
Different answers and that, But let me just start simply,
557
00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:06.680
which is the first thing to know is that flow
558
00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:09.720
states have triggers. These are preconditions that lead to more flow.
559
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:12.599
There are twenty eight that have been discovered. There are
560
00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:14.759
probably way more, but that's what we know about the
561
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:18.000
common two varieties individual triggers that will drive me and
562
00:29:18.039 --> 00:29:20.039
to flow or you and to flow. And then there's
563
00:29:20.079 --> 00:29:22.359
a shared collective version of a flow state. If it's
564
00:29:22.359 --> 00:29:25.400
two people talking right, they get lost their conversation outgth by,
565
00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:28.640
it's interpersonal flow. When it's a team a fourth quarter
566
00:29:28.680 --> 00:29:32.680
comeback and footballer, a band, you know, totally tightening zenc
567
00:29:32.839 --> 00:29:36.480
or improv comedy, that's group flow or team flow. And
568
00:29:36.519 --> 00:29:39.039
then at scale, when it's like everyone is a rock concert,
569
00:29:39.119 --> 00:29:41.240
you're all clap against sank and merge with the music.
570
00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:44.799
That's sorts of that's communitos group flow at scale. But
571
00:29:45.240 --> 00:29:48.039
the triggers are on either side of the equation, but
572
00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:50.960
essentially under the they all work the same way. Flow
573
00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:53.400
follows focus. It can only show up when all our
574
00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:55.640
attention isn't the right here right now? That's what all
575
00:29:55.640 --> 00:29:58.359
the triggers do. They help us drive our attention into
576
00:29:58.359 --> 00:30:01.839
the present moment Iologically they do it one A three
577
00:30:01.839 --> 00:30:04.640
ways of the other ports doping indoor system, pushing ra
578
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:08.400
app and effort indoor system, or lower cognative load you know, coggyloads,
579
00:30:08.440 --> 00:30:09.839
all the crap you're trying to think about it any
580
00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:12.240
one time. If I lower it, what I do is
581
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:14.960
I liberate energy, and the brand immediately will repurpose it
582
00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:17.480
for paying attention. So that's how that one works. But
583
00:30:17.680 --> 00:30:20.319
and there's some combination, some triggers hit two or three
584
00:30:20.359 --> 00:30:24.359
of those effects. But anyways, this is how we drive flows.
585
00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:28.359
So the most obvious thing here is to start with
586
00:30:28.400 --> 00:30:32.039
the start complete concentration as a flow trigger. And obviously,
587
00:30:32.359 --> 00:30:34.359
and what that really means in the real world is
588
00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:38.000
we must practice we talked about it earlier, distraction management.
589
00:30:38.519 --> 00:30:41.160
So you know, when I sit down to write a
590
00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:44.359
book or put together a powerport presentation and current it
591
00:30:44.359 --> 00:30:47.880
off myselfe turning off the email, all of my messages
592
00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:51.200
get turned off. I keep one emergecy channel of communication
593
00:30:51.400 --> 00:30:55.000
open with my CEO, my wife, and a couple other parents,
594
00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:57.920
A couple other people and that other there's everything else
595
00:30:57.960 --> 00:31:03.160
is shut down. That's distract management. Knowing what I'm doing,
596
00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:05.519
having a clear goal for the thing I'm doing, so
597
00:31:05.559 --> 00:31:08.319
I know what to put my attention to. That's distraction management.
598
00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:11.480
That's one way to think about complete concentration. We can
599
00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:13.359
take it a step further because you can ask, well,
600
00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:17.200
how long should I concentrate for to maximize flow? And
601
00:31:17.319 --> 00:31:20.400
here you can't fight your biology. Should work with your biology.
602
00:31:20.440 --> 00:31:22.799
And we know we have ninety to one and ten
603
00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:25.680
minute focus cycles much in the same way we have
604
00:31:25.759 --> 00:31:28.400
ninety nine to ten minute m cycles streaming cycles. Right,
605
00:31:28.400 --> 00:31:30.200
we have to wake and alert and a focus cycle
606
00:31:30.200 --> 00:31:32.640
as well. But ninety minutes long. This is to say
607
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:36.519
your brain has a pre existing slot we're paying attention
608
00:31:36.599 --> 00:31:39.640
to run ninety minutes. Now, this gets fractured in the
609
00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:41.920
modern world, and a lot of people don't believe they
610
00:31:41.960 --> 00:31:45.519
have this. But you'll find if you start walling yourself
611
00:31:45.559 --> 00:31:48.319
off from the world and sort of trying to maximize
612
00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:52.000
complete concentration, you're going to slip towards that ninety minutes
613
00:31:52.119 --> 00:31:55.920
very naturally and easily as we're designing for it. That's
614
00:31:55.920 --> 00:31:58.440
a really simple example then there's a whole bunch of
615
00:31:58.720 --> 00:32:04.599
so called dopamin triggers, novelty, complexity, unpredictability, risk. This could
616
00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:06.799
be physical risks, this could be social risk. Fear of
617
00:32:06.880 --> 00:32:08.720
public speaking is the number one fear in the world.
618
00:32:09.160 --> 00:32:12.119
I don't recognition why is reading such an or full
619
00:32:12.119 --> 00:32:15.359
flow state when we connect ideas together, that little rusher
620
00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:17.559
pleasure we getting done across their puzzles. So could you
621
00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:19.519
fill in an ass you get that rusher pleasure that's
622
00:32:19.519 --> 00:32:22.319
dope with me, and it's tightening focus and amply not
623
00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:25.880
pattern recognition on helping us drive further and to flow.
624
00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:28.319
So there's a bunch of triggers that work that way.
625
00:32:28.599 --> 00:32:32.240
Onomy is a really crucial flow trigger. So little known
626
00:32:32.359 --> 00:32:36.599
fact that autonomy is coupled in the brain or biologically
627
00:32:36.920 --> 00:32:40.480
to attention. If you believe you, like I want to
628
00:32:40.519 --> 00:32:43.359
do this, you can maximize attention. If you don't want
629
00:32:43.400 --> 00:32:45.200
to do something, if it doesn't align with where you
630
00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:48.440
want to go in your life, cannot maximize attention, which
631
00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:49.880
is why I always tell people you have to do
632
00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:52.599
a task that you're really not into, Like boss gives
633
00:32:52.599 --> 00:32:56.680
you an assignment something along those lines, reframe it, say okay,
634
00:32:56.759 --> 00:32:59.160
ninety percent of this task is cramp. You could care less,
635
00:32:59.359 --> 00:33:01.319
but like ten of it. It's going to make me
636
00:33:01.359 --> 00:33:06.319
a better speaker, communicator, more empathetic, a better sales person,
637
00:33:06.319 --> 00:33:09.119
whatever it is. Focus on the thing that aligns with
638
00:33:09.160 --> 00:33:13.000
your purpose and your greater passions. Really, that's the That's
639
00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:16.079
the only you can maximize attention. So there's a bunch more,
640
00:33:16.400 --> 00:33:18.480
but I gave you, you know, a bunch of different
641
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:21.240
things to sort of work with. I want to speak
642
00:33:21.319 --> 00:33:23.720
into the last thing you said, because it's a I
643
00:33:23.720 --> 00:33:28.319
think it's wrong. You said that regular access to flow
644
00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:32.039
is going to diminish fear, and I don't think that's true.
645
00:33:32.599 --> 00:33:35.039
It diminishes fear when you're in the state, and it
646
00:33:35.079 --> 00:33:38.079
makes you more confident over time. But the reason I'm
647
00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:41.119
not one hundred percent it's true is the most important
648
00:33:41.119 --> 00:33:43.680
flow trigger. What's long when called the golden rule to
649
00:33:43.759 --> 00:33:47.480
flow is the challenge skills balance. The idea here is
650
00:33:48.039 --> 00:33:50.759
we can maximize focus and attention on the pask and
651
00:33:50.759 --> 00:33:53.559
and and the challenge of the task slightly exceeds our
652
00:33:53.640 --> 00:33:58.319
skill set, so you want to stretch but not snap. Basically,
653
00:33:58.720 --> 00:34:00.880
if I were to put that, describe that emotionally I'd
654
00:34:00.920 --> 00:34:05.160
say it's not exactly dead center between, but it's near
655
00:34:05.240 --> 00:34:08.639
the midpoint between boredom there's not enough stimulation you're can't
656
00:34:08.679 --> 00:34:12.440
pay any attention, and anxiety whoa too much stimulation and
657
00:34:12.679 --> 00:34:15.239
too much attention. To in between is what's known as
658
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:19.039
the flow channel, this sweet spot to maximize flow. But
659
00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:22.320
it's usually about like when the challenge is like five
660
00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:26.000
percent greater than your skills. Now, that doesn't sound like
661
00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:28.199
a lot, but here's the question about fear that I
662
00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:31.199
want to raise. Once you're five percent greater than your skills,
663
00:34:31.599 --> 00:34:34.519
if you especially if you're shy, timid, meek, or like
664
00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:37.559
doing something that maybe you're not super well versed and
665
00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:40.360
new to the desk, that's the point where you're going
666
00:34:40.440 --> 00:34:42.920
to be uncomfortable. You're outside your comfort zone. So you've
667
00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:46.800
got to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. So it's not
668
00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:50.360
that you feel less fear, it's that your relationship to
669
00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:53.960
fear changes. This is one of the commonalities among the
670
00:34:53.960 --> 00:34:56.920
world's top performers, and there aren't that many. The couple
671
00:34:56.960 --> 00:34:59.400
of them are what it really all started as as
672
00:34:59.480 --> 00:35:03.000
ordinary piece. That's one right. They climb this challenge skills
673
00:35:03.079 --> 00:35:07.320
ladder and flow or its extraordinary. That's how progress gets
674
00:35:07.320 --> 00:35:10.800
made that way. But every one of these people, and
675
00:35:10.840 --> 00:35:15.079
myself included, will use fear as a compass. So it's
676
00:35:15.159 --> 00:35:17.079
not that there's less fear, it's that you learn to
677
00:35:17.079 --> 00:35:18.960
work with it. Why would you use fear as a compass.
678
00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:22.000
Why would you go in the direction of fear. So
679
00:35:22.760 --> 00:35:24.800
the brain is two percent of our body mass, but
680
00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:27.079
it uses twenty five percent of our energy at rest
681
00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:29.400
and way more when we're doing a task. One of
682
00:35:29.400 --> 00:35:32.119
the biggest things the brain can ever do is pay attention.
683
00:35:32.679 --> 00:35:37.199
It's very expensive, your focused attention right, So anton can
684
00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:41.440
get attention for free. The big deal. From a performance standpoint,
685
00:35:41.480 --> 00:35:46.119
you'll have more calories, you'll have more energy, so performers
686
00:35:46.159 --> 00:35:48.400
will use So I'll give you an example. Every time
687
00:35:48.519 --> 00:35:51.239
I write a book, there's a challenge. You see the
688
00:35:51.320 --> 00:35:54.840
communication of the ideas and maybe even the style of
689
00:35:54.880 --> 00:35:58.440
the book. But there's a challenge that I see, which is, oh,
690
00:35:58.440 --> 00:36:00.079
if I have to write this book, I have to
691
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:02.199
level up my writing skills and learn how to do
692
00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:04.519
this and this, and while those things are really hard,
693
00:36:04.519 --> 00:36:08.320
and isn't this scary? That's the challenge I see, because
694
00:36:08.360 --> 00:36:13.559
it focuses my attention on something that way. So it's yes,
695
00:36:13.639 --> 00:36:17.639
you are right that you do end up so overriding fears,
696
00:36:17.880 --> 00:36:20.440
but you run right into the next one. Is it
697
00:36:20.519 --> 00:36:23.159
like you level up and you just what's the next challenge?
698
00:36:23.239 --> 00:36:25.519
I know it's going to be scary. The fear, the
699
00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:30.559
bad feeling inside doesn't go away. What instead happens is
700
00:36:30.559 --> 00:36:32.039
your bad feeling and so side and then you get
701
00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:34.320
another feeling, which is the sense of belief of oh,
702
00:36:34.360 --> 00:36:36.400
I've felt this before and I know I can deal
703
00:36:36.440 --> 00:36:38.400
with it. I know exactly what to do, and it
704
00:36:38.440 --> 00:36:42.039
doesn't mean disaster. It's giving me some focus. That so
705
00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:46.079
the way you communicate with fear be it becomes something
706
00:36:46.119 --> 00:36:47.360
of an outline and development.
707
00:36:47.679 --> 00:36:49.880
Yeah, I think that's a very important distinction. In many
708
00:36:49.880 --> 00:36:52.280
spiritual traditions, the idea of peer lysis is not the
709
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:54.800
absence of fear, but it's a different relationship with her.
710
00:36:55.159 --> 00:36:58.280
As you're pointing out, So, I guess what I'm also
711
00:36:58.599 --> 00:37:00.800
pointing to is a couple of different directions. Like so
712
00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:04.639
what I'm hearing is in terms of goal oriented flow,
713
00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:08.920
like eliminate distractions as much as you can train yourself
714
00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:12.360
in focus and concentration. These things are going to help
715
00:37:12.440 --> 00:37:14.920
you be able to get into a state of flow
716
00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:18.159
and accomplish what you're trying to accomplish. And then the
717
00:37:18.199 --> 00:37:21.679
reason I'm asking these other questions about, you know, beyond
718
00:37:21.679 --> 00:37:26.000
flow experiences like are there actual lasting changes in the
719
00:37:26.039 --> 00:37:29.119
neural structure of the brain and if that's the case,
720
00:37:29.719 --> 00:37:33.239
Also comparing the kind of work oriented flow goal or
721
00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:36.760
employer you're talking about experiences like you alluded before in
722
00:37:36.880 --> 00:37:40.800
Ketymene assistant psychotherapy, I've experienced the integration of Ketymene and
723
00:37:41.199 --> 00:37:43.920
if in retreats in the last couple of years, deep
724
00:37:44.039 --> 00:37:47.960
meditative experiences of what are usually considered somebody very deep
725
00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:53.039
states of unitary consciousness or other types of peak experiences
726
00:37:53.679 --> 00:37:57.320
many people report, and in my own experience, there are
727
00:37:57.440 --> 00:38:01.519
some ways that just fundamentally changes your relationship to death,
728
00:38:01.559 --> 00:38:04.760
for example, or to other things, to where you really
729
00:38:04.920 --> 00:38:08.039
do have a different posture or way of being in
730
00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:10.880
relationship to yourself, to life to death, to what people
731
00:38:11.199 --> 00:38:15.320
often have kind of ongoing abiding fear about yes.
732
00:38:15.679 --> 00:38:18.360
I mean not new information. William James point of this
733
00:38:18.400 --> 00:38:21.519
out in the varieties of religious experience, right, he said,
734
00:38:21.800 --> 00:38:23.960
stay what you want about these experiences, but they are
735
00:38:24.039 --> 00:38:28.880
psychologically real. We come out the other end radically different people,
736
00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:31.840
with radically new beliefs. Flow. You know, these are all
737
00:38:31.880 --> 00:38:34.599
the north the happy experiences we talked about, and like
738
00:38:34.639 --> 00:38:38.039
I we're about in stealing fire right, grant states, mestigo states,
739
00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:41.880
flow states, psychedelics, they're all related. They're very similar in
740
00:38:41.920 --> 00:38:45.559
the brain, similar things are happening neurobiologically. You can do
741
00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:49.920
comparison contrast studies and you know, we've done really fun
742
00:38:49.960 --> 00:38:52.239
studies with like Imperial College in London where we looked
743
00:38:52.239 --> 00:38:55.400
at psychedelic states versus flow states. What are they good for?
744
00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:59.840
Like are psychedelic states better for? Like they're better than
745
00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:03.800
flow if you want to experience synesthesia, have a mystical experience,
746
00:39:03.960 --> 00:39:06.920
or have a negative experience. They have the upper hand.
747
00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:11.000
If you are looking for creative problem solving or things
748
00:39:11.039 --> 00:39:12.639
like that, flow is better. And so you can do
749
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:16.440
these kinds of studies now. But clearly all of them
750
00:39:16.800 --> 00:39:19.800
are psychologically real at having a deep impact, and as
751
00:39:19.840 --> 00:39:23.559
you pointed out, a lot of them kind of actively
752
00:39:23.679 --> 00:39:27.039
override really deep beliefs, right like our you know, our
753
00:39:27.079 --> 00:39:28.320
innate fear of death.
754
00:39:28.719 --> 00:39:30.679
Yeah, so another way to talk about. This is the
755
00:39:30.719 --> 00:39:33.320
idea of states and trades. So in terms of training
756
00:39:33.400 --> 00:39:35.719
myself to be a high performer, if that's one of
757
00:39:35.719 --> 00:39:39.599
my goals, what is the process and a pathway of
758
00:39:39.800 --> 00:39:44.000
turning flow states into traits is another way to kind
759
00:39:44.039 --> 00:39:45.639
of what I've been asking.
760
00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:48.960
Yes again, I mean like and we've been answering, like
761
00:39:49.360 --> 00:39:52.400
repeated a reliable experience to flow or any of these
762
00:39:52.639 --> 00:39:57.119
you know, more positive states. That's you know, this is
763
00:39:57.360 --> 00:39:59.760
at a certain level. This is no different than Barbar
764
00:39:59.800 --> 00:40:02.400
Fras is wonderful work on the broad and build theory
765
00:40:02.480 --> 00:40:05.400
right where you have positive experiences and they build on
766
00:40:05.440 --> 00:40:07.400
each other and they expand, and they build on each
767
00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:11.840
other and expand. I think of it often in terms
768
00:40:11.840 --> 00:40:15.760
of Stephen Johnson's work. You know about these states unlock
769
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:18.679
the adjacent possible, so we have, you know, a larger
770
00:40:18.760 --> 00:40:20.599
selection of things to work with.
771
00:40:20.760 --> 00:40:21.440
This is interesting.
772
00:40:21.480 --> 00:40:23.800
So this is related to an older questions you asked
773
00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:25.559
in one way I like to think about it. So
774
00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:29.840
we talked about George Broono's wonderful work on resilience. Resilience
775
00:40:29.880 --> 00:40:32.199
is really hard to brain. Oddly, one of the only
776
00:40:32.239 --> 00:40:35.159
ways you can actually train resilience is through training flow.
777
00:40:35.639 --> 00:40:40.719
And the reason is resilience is actually adaptive flexibility. So
778
00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:44.960
you hear things like, oh, meditation is really good for
779
00:40:45.679 --> 00:40:50.599
braining resilience sometimes, but if you have really racing thoughts
780
00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:54.000
and you're in distress, meditation is actually going to make
781
00:40:54.039 --> 00:40:57.360
them echo louder and make you worse. And so it
782
00:40:57.440 --> 00:41:01.360
won't always help flow because it's optical performance and a
783
00:41:01.360 --> 00:41:05.840
lot of stuff gets optimized. Right, You're adaptively flexible. So
784
00:41:06.360 --> 00:41:11.119
in a weird way, I'm a portion of like overriding
785
00:41:11.199 --> 00:41:13.760
beliefs and resilience and things we've been talking a lot
786
00:41:13.800 --> 00:41:15.360
about and you've been asking about we've been trying to
787
00:41:15.400 --> 00:41:18.719
probe and poke into. It's the confidence. Even it's not
788
00:41:18.800 --> 00:41:21.639
even like, oh, the fear won't be there or this
789
00:41:21.719 --> 00:41:25.400
won't stuck. Those things don't go away. It's the I've
790
00:41:25.400 --> 00:41:29.079
got to adaptive flexibility. No matter what direction the shit
791
00:41:29.159 --> 00:41:32.519
storm comes, I got a shield and a sword, right
792
00:41:32.840 --> 00:41:35.440
and can fight back. It's sort of how I'm thinking
793
00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:36.559
about it. Does that make sense?
794
00:41:37.079 --> 00:41:40.679
M Absolutely so. In one of your books, you've talked
795
00:41:40.719 --> 00:41:43.679
about a habit of inferiority that people deal with. You've
796
00:41:43.679 --> 00:41:46.880
been referencing also earlier in our conversation. The kind of
797
00:41:46.960 --> 00:41:50.079
victim mindset where we have the external locus of control.
798
00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:53.199
I mean, this is pretty predominant, I think. And so
799
00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:56.880
what's the process of people really shifting out of there?
800
00:41:56.880 --> 00:41:59.280
I mean, my book and kind of what I focus
801
00:41:59.360 --> 00:42:01.599
on my work on book is called rackal responsibility, and
802
00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:04.760
it's all about not living your life from that state,
803
00:42:05.360 --> 00:42:08.760
but you know, inviting people into that level of ownership,
804
00:42:09.079 --> 00:42:10.760
which has nothing to do with it. Obviously it's not
805
00:42:10.760 --> 00:42:12.920
about blaming others, but it's not about self playing. It's
806
00:42:12.920 --> 00:42:16.599
really ownership because that's where our power. So embracing the
807
00:42:16.639 --> 00:42:20.400
internal locals and control, embracing autonomy, embracing agency, all these
808
00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:22.960
things and seeing the power of choice. How do people
809
00:42:23.000 --> 00:42:25.559
make that ship when they've kind of developed habits of
810
00:42:25.679 --> 00:42:26.800
victim mindset? Thinking?
811
00:42:27.239 --> 00:42:29.639
Great question, So that's another the habit in feriority to
812
00:42:29.719 --> 00:42:32.000
tell you about. This is another William James turn, a
813
00:42:32.079 --> 00:42:34.840
great you know, the great William James with something he
814
00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:39.079
pointed out and his example, which which I think is
815
00:42:39.119 --> 00:42:41.320
still irrelevant today when he was talking about it was
816
00:42:41.360 --> 00:42:44.000
like most people don't even know they have a second wind,
817
00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:47.079
let alone a third or a fourth or a fifth,
818
00:42:47.119 --> 00:42:49.599
Like this is a leave. Ever in a triathlon or
819
00:42:49.880 --> 00:42:54.119
done an endurance anything, you discover it's not just a
820
00:42:54.119 --> 00:42:57.039
second wind, there's a third, there's effort. But most people
821
00:42:57.159 --> 00:43:01.599
never pushed themselves far enough up that skills balanced ladder
822
00:43:01.920 --> 00:43:07.679
using flow distract discover what they're capable of and what's
823
00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:12.679
interesting here. I always say this about people. Our capabilities
824
00:43:13.079 --> 00:43:17.159
our ceiling is invisible, and it's invisible to ourselves. We
825
00:43:17.199 --> 00:43:20.679
can never know. And the reason our capabilities are emergent.
826
00:43:20.800 --> 00:43:24.280
They literally are what emerge and flow at this superior level,
827
00:43:24.280 --> 00:43:28.199
and we're always surprised. We're always like, WHOA, that's I
828
00:43:28.239 --> 00:43:31.039
can't believe, like what that level of is?
829
00:43:31.119 --> 00:43:31.360
Right?
830
00:43:31.639 --> 00:43:34.840
And so it's this ladder of like superpowers that you
831
00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:38.119
suddenly step into and then next and again, and it's
832
00:43:38.199 --> 00:43:42.679
literally an emergent property. We can't it's invisible before it arises.
833
00:43:42.800 --> 00:43:46.119
So that's I think. I don't know if this is
834
00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:48.639
quite the answer to how do we override the living beliefs?
835
00:43:48.639 --> 00:43:50.079
Which one of the things I want to point out
836
00:43:50.079 --> 00:43:53.199
that like you have the limiting beliefs because the system
837
00:43:53.239 --> 00:43:56.280
that lets you see what you're actually capable of it's invisible.
838
00:43:56.320 --> 00:43:59.840
You can only go sort of so far at once,
839
00:44:00.039 --> 00:44:01.960
can only go basically the edge of your belief to
840
00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:06.239
that Banister effect right wherever that is, and you can't
841
00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:10.000
go any farther. You know, I don't said it earlier,
842
00:44:10.079 --> 00:44:12.880
and I'll say it again, maybe in a slightly different way.
843
00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:15.960
But when people come to train with the flow restach collective,
844
00:44:15.960 --> 00:44:18.719
for example, what's a goal? What's a win? Right? How
845
00:44:18.719 --> 00:44:20.559
do I know I've done my job? What am I
846
00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:23.360
trying to do? So I gotta I'm going to have
847
00:44:23.360 --> 00:44:24.920
to define a couple of terms here to do This
848
00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:27.840
makes sense, but it'll land for everybody, hopefully. I want
849
00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:30.079
to make we have a daily to do list. In
850
00:44:30.159 --> 00:44:33.199
flow science, we call that a clear goals list. Clear
851
00:44:33.239 --> 00:44:35.440
goals are a flow trigger because they tell your brain
852
00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:37.360
what to focus on, to do it on. It's a
853
00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:39.280
well established, well set up. You build it in a
854
00:44:39.440 --> 00:44:43.360
very specific way. But when I can make the execution
855
00:44:43.480 --> 00:44:46.639
of a clear goals list, Autotelic is a fancy Greek word.
856
00:44:46.679 --> 00:44:49.480
It describes flow. It means an end in itself. It
857
00:44:49.519 --> 00:44:52.840
means the experience is so joyous, so fun and so
858
00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:57.719
immersively entertainingly astounding that we want more and more of it.
859
00:44:57.760 --> 00:45:00.599
So when I can make your daily to do list,
860
00:45:00.800 --> 00:45:03.440
I tend things on my list and I did them,
861
00:45:03.599 --> 00:45:05.639
and I gotten to flow along the way, and I'm
862
00:45:05.639 --> 00:45:07.800
so fired up to do it again tomorrow and do
863
00:45:07.880 --> 00:45:11.320
it again tomorrow. What starts to happen is you accomplish
864
00:45:11.519 --> 00:45:14.000
and things every day, again and again and again, and
865
00:45:14.079 --> 00:45:17.480
it doesn't really matter how you feel. Like oftentimes I
866
00:45:17.519 --> 00:45:21.280
say with like all artists learn this. I think every
867
00:45:21.559 --> 00:45:23.679
learns this. Like the great thing about flow is I
868
00:45:23.719 --> 00:45:27.000
can like, oh, wake up. It's not always great up here.
869
00:45:27.159 --> 00:45:29.079
Sometimes I wake up and the voice in my head
870
00:45:29.159 --> 00:45:32.360
is gnarly, insane, horrible things and more often than not,
871
00:45:32.599 --> 00:45:35.039
in all honesty, but I get into flow in my
872
00:45:35.199 --> 00:45:39.400
morning writing session. It's just that voice up It destroys
873
00:45:39.440 --> 00:45:41.280
those learning beliefs. And then go out and MA have
874
00:45:41.320 --> 00:45:45.559
a great day. And that's more common than not in
875
00:45:45.559 --> 00:45:47.480
my life. And I think in a lot of people's
876
00:45:47.519 --> 00:45:50.159
lives or our car is just critic and how we
877
00:45:50.239 --> 00:45:53.039
talk to ourselves. As soon as I also loved what
878
00:45:53.119 --> 00:45:55.039
you had to say, I think we have to take
879
00:45:55.119 --> 00:45:57.519
responsibility for our love oh much. I think one of
880
00:45:57.519 --> 00:46:01.400
the most powerful realization and our life is going to
881
00:46:01.400 --> 00:46:04.039
be nothing more or less than what we make of it.
882
00:46:04.400 --> 00:46:07.599
And I also, I've said this a lot is and
883
00:46:07.639 --> 00:46:10.159
I think this is related to the belief question. So
884
00:46:10.320 --> 00:46:12.199
we're talking about how to overcome living beliefs. I talked
885
00:46:12.199 --> 00:46:13.599
a lot about flow and other things about want to
886
00:46:13.639 --> 00:46:15.599
go in a couple of other directions. This is something
887
00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:18.800
I'd like to point out. And I think it's certain
888
00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:22.760
spiritual creations talk about this. In others it's sort of
889
00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:25.360
like they don't like it's glossed over. But I believe
890
00:46:25.480 --> 00:46:29.920
that taken that the act of getting the life we want,
891
00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:33.360
rising into our potential is a violent apt We are
892
00:46:33.559 --> 00:46:35.639
taking it in a sense from the universe. I don't
893
00:46:35.639 --> 00:46:38.440
mean we have to be mean or harsh or any
894
00:46:38.559 --> 00:46:41.280
unkind or any of those things, but there's a there's
895
00:46:41.320 --> 00:46:44.840
an aggression to it that's required, and there's it's the
896
00:46:44.840 --> 00:46:48.239
same aggression that's required to override those limiting beliefs.
897
00:46:48.760 --> 00:46:53.360
No, absolutely so, as audience is listening to this, and
898
00:46:54.039 --> 00:46:56.400
you know, even sometimes you know, and there's all kinds
899
00:46:56.400 --> 00:46:58.800
of different audiences. We have a pretty broad audience as
900
00:46:58.800 --> 00:47:02.440
far as summits, and many are interested in mindfulness and meditation.
901
00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:06.719
We have a whole lot of folks incident, psychoic consist psychotherapy.
902
00:47:06.800 --> 00:47:08.760
We have a lot of people incident and resilience, a
903
00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:11.840
lot of people int in just optimizing their lives. Some
904
00:47:12.039 --> 00:47:16.360
for some the idea of even the focus on performance
905
00:47:16.440 --> 00:47:20.280
and success brings up you know, in NOO sens of achievement.
906
00:47:20.320 --> 00:47:23.239
They have to do with comparing, invaluation and all this
907
00:47:23.360 --> 00:47:25.519
kind of stuff. And you know, there can be I mean,
908
00:47:25.880 --> 00:47:27.880
for me, I think that kind of a subtle and
909
00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:30.400
maybe not so subtle form of a victim mindset and
910
00:47:30.440 --> 00:47:33.760
not wanting to step into one's life, you know, just
911
00:47:33.800 --> 00:47:36.559
out of conditioned fears around self shaming and so forth.
912
00:47:36.599 --> 00:47:39.800
And so so if someone I think to them even
913
00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:42.800
embrace whatever level in line to them, just embrace the
914
00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:47.760
idea of personal mastery or becoming a high performer, or
915
00:47:47.880 --> 00:47:50.599
just wanting to really optimize any area of your life,
916
00:47:50.639 --> 00:47:52.960
like just any of their In my life, I'm gonna really,
917
00:47:53.079 --> 00:47:55.360
you know, try to be you know, the best parent
918
00:47:55.400 --> 00:47:58.159
I can absolutely be, or the best spouse, or I'm
919
00:47:58.159 --> 00:48:00.480
going to really try to master something in this area
920
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:03.280
of my life. It takes a certain act of courage,
921
00:48:04.239 --> 00:48:06.320
but then you know, there's a lot of payoffs for that.
922
00:48:06.360 --> 00:48:08.519
We've been kind of talking how once you step in,
923
00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:11.880
once you start taking those acts of courage, there's all
924
00:48:11.960 --> 00:48:15.039
kinds of reinforcing benefits that can support you and guide
925
00:48:15.039 --> 00:48:17.840
you on your path. And maybe there's even some internal
926
00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:21.320
innate dynamics of our being that we're tapping into that
927
00:48:21.360 --> 00:48:23.840
it'll you know, can carry us forward. But people have
928
00:48:23.920 --> 00:48:27.719
to make that first step. So what do you suggest
929
00:48:27.800 --> 00:48:31.679
in terms of how people can begin to tap into
930
00:48:31.760 --> 00:48:34.320
this notion of optimizing performance?
931
00:48:34.360 --> 00:48:37.880
So, flow, that's a really great question, Thanks for asking it.
932
00:48:38.280 --> 00:48:41.840
The question of where to start now two answers, depending
933
00:48:41.840 --> 00:48:45.679
on who I'm talking is so one, if you're burned out, right,
934
00:48:45.880 --> 00:48:49.920
if you're starting, sub are to get to normal? Yeah,
935
00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:52.000
you got you need seven eight Flow is a high
936
00:48:52.079 --> 00:48:54.920
energy state, right, so you need seven eight hours of
937
00:48:54.960 --> 00:48:58.239
sleep a night. Take regularly asks that you need hydration,
938
00:48:58.599 --> 00:49:02.360
lots of water, You need nutrition through your energy, and
939
00:49:02.400 --> 00:49:05.239
you need to regularly manage your nervous because we talk
940
00:49:05.280 --> 00:49:08.320
about that challenge skills balance too much anxiety and we
941
00:49:08.400 --> 00:49:11.320
live in this world we're all hyper anxious. You get
942
00:49:11.360 --> 00:49:15.280
blocked from flow. So I always tell people, I literally
943
00:49:15.320 --> 00:49:18.000
when I work with people, I got a checklist. You
944
00:49:18.119 --> 00:49:21.360
got five minutes give me a daily gratitude practice because
945
00:49:21.360 --> 00:49:25.000
of a lower anxiety. You've got six minutes read a novel,
946
00:49:25.360 --> 00:49:29.159
read fiction. Actually, it lowers stress levels a little more
947
00:49:29.199 --> 00:49:33.360
than a gratitude breaktage. You've got seven to eleven mindfulness, right,
948
00:49:33.400 --> 00:49:36.320
seven to fifteen, breath work, mindfuls. You've got fifteen to twenty,
949
00:49:36.320 --> 00:49:38.360
and go for a walk in nature. You've got twenty
950
00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:41.960
to forty. It's exercise. You're super stressed due too of
951
00:49:42.079 --> 00:49:47.400
those things, right, EPSOM, salt bass, restorative yoga, infrared, sauna,
952
00:49:47.719 --> 00:49:50.960
get a massage. Like the list is sort of endless,
953
00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:55.039
but like we gotta manicure our nervous systems. Right, that's
954
00:49:55.079 --> 00:49:58.559
sort of the front end of this stuff in terms
955
00:49:58.599 --> 00:50:01.559
of making this stuff reliable and repeatable, and you know,
956
00:50:01.559 --> 00:50:04.800
getting in their lives and start there, right, and then
957
00:50:04.920 --> 00:50:06.760
do what I'm about to tell everybody else to do.
958
00:50:06.960 --> 00:50:09.960
If you're fired out, your motivated, ever, I always say, like,
959
00:50:10.480 --> 00:50:13.119
if you have the time, we have what are known
960
00:50:13.159 --> 00:50:17.199
as what was SAD is called primary flow experiences. This
961
00:50:17.280 --> 00:50:19.400
is literally a thing that you've done most of your
962
00:50:19.440 --> 00:50:21.880
life that drops you into flow. For me, I can
963
00:50:21.920 --> 00:50:25.079
tell you it's skiing. For my wife, that's titing dogs
964
00:50:25.079 --> 00:50:28.400
in the back country. For my best friend's playing the guitar,
965
00:50:29.000 --> 00:50:33.719
you know, for my other best friend, it's coding computers, architecture,
966
00:50:33.840 --> 00:50:38.239
salcid dancing, ballroom dancing, horse back riding, yes, mac or
967
00:50:38.280 --> 00:50:42.400
mac gardening. You know, it doesn't really matter. And if
968
00:50:42.400 --> 00:50:45.599
you don't know what your primary flow activity is, think
969
00:50:45.639 --> 00:50:48.599
about your favorite memories that are not pegged at dates
970
00:50:48.840 --> 00:50:50.760
and don't even like ask yourself what you were doing,
971
00:50:50.800 --> 00:50:53.320
but look for the qualities. Was I indoors? Was I outdoors?
972
00:50:53.480 --> 00:50:54.079
Was I alone?
973
00:50:54.480 --> 00:50:55.440
Was I with the group?
974
00:50:55.920 --> 00:50:58.480
Was their emotion about? Was it an embodied practice?
975
00:50:58.599 --> 00:50:59.039
Was it a car?
976
00:50:59.119 --> 00:51:02.599
You ask your self those questions, look for commonalities and like,
977
00:51:02.679 --> 00:51:05.360
find an activity like that, it's very close to your
978
00:51:05.360 --> 00:51:09.199
primary fly activity to that one, and just spend if
979
00:51:09.239 --> 00:51:12.639
you can, four hours a week and afternoon a week
980
00:51:13.039 --> 00:51:16.880
doing that. Is that our primary flow activity are sort
981
00:51:16.880 --> 00:51:20.519
of from a nature nurture perspective, lined up with the
982
00:51:20.559 --> 00:51:23.920
flow triggers were usually most susceptible to and often work
983
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:27.559
best for us. So blow, as you pointed out earlier,
984
00:51:27.599 --> 00:51:29.559
you talked to roundas and come out and say it.
985
00:51:29.559 --> 00:51:31.760
But you brought the point up like four different ways.
986
00:51:32.199 --> 00:51:33.719
The more flow you get, the more flow you get.
987
00:51:33.719 --> 00:51:35.639
It's like any skills like meditation, right, you want to
988
00:51:35.639 --> 00:51:38.639
get good at meditating and producing that grand state. Meditate
989
00:51:38.679 --> 00:51:40.280
a lot. You're training the brain to focus in a
990
00:51:40.400 --> 00:51:43.280
very particular way. Flow we talked about right at the
991
00:51:43.280 --> 00:51:46.079
front of our discussion slightly different than meditation.
992
00:51:46.360 --> 00:51:46.960
We know that.
993
00:51:47.119 --> 00:51:50.400
Michael Posner, the dean of intention Science in the seventies
994
00:51:50.480 --> 00:51:53.920
or eighties, said, Hey, it's very clear that a regular
995
00:51:53.960 --> 00:51:56.239
meditation practice is going to make you more flow prone
996
00:51:56.280 --> 00:51:59.280
because they're focusing skills and they're related. There's more flow
997
00:51:59.320 --> 00:52:00.920
you get, the more flow you So I get a
998
00:52:00.920 --> 00:52:04.000
lot of flow on Saturday skiing, right, I got a
999
00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:06.480
better chance of getting into flow at work on Monday
1000
00:52:06.480 --> 00:52:09.000
and Tuesday. That's the first part. The second part is
1001
00:52:09.039 --> 00:52:12.880
when we move into flow, there's a global release in nitrioxide.
1002
00:52:12.880 --> 00:52:14.880
It pushes stressful ones out of our system so that
1003
00:52:15.039 --> 00:52:18.239
feel good neurochemical pulse can take their place. It resets
1004
00:52:18.280 --> 00:52:22.719
that nervous system, so it calms us down, which also
1005
00:52:22.840 --> 00:52:26.840
helps us get into flow. And finally, the heightened creativity
1006
00:52:27.159 --> 00:52:30.599
and possibly the hiden productivity and the hiden mood. This
1007
00:52:30.719 --> 00:52:32.639
is work that came out of Harvard to some models
1008
00:52:32.679 --> 00:52:34.519
found that it will outlast the flow state by a
1009
00:52:34.559 --> 00:52:38.000
day maybe two. So like you get this afterglow off
1010
00:52:38.079 --> 00:52:41.079
fact that you know, and I think that's the neuroplastic
1011
00:52:41.119 --> 00:52:43.280
window we were talking about. I think that after glow
1012
00:52:43.480 --> 00:52:46.800
correlates with that neuroplastic window when you can kind of
1013
00:52:46.800 --> 00:52:50.559
rewire some of those limiting beliefs. So if you're burned out,
1014
00:52:51.119 --> 00:52:54.119
start by taking car of yourself, sleep, banic carr your
1015
00:52:54.199 --> 00:52:58.079
nervous system. If you can't get there, you know, tay avigations,
1016
00:52:58.159 --> 00:53:00.679
that doesn't work, psychedelic therapy, you know what I mean.
1017
00:53:00.760 --> 00:53:04.000
Like there's a list depending on how far where you're
1018
00:53:04.039 --> 00:53:06.760
starting from, and then double down on your primary flow activity.
1019
00:53:06.800 --> 00:53:09.920
If you're starting from I'm all fired up, start doubling
1020
00:53:09.960 --> 00:53:12.719
down your primary flow activity. If you want to take
1021
00:53:12.760 --> 00:53:15.480
it one step further, if you can draw your schedule,
1022
00:53:15.599 --> 00:53:17.880
or if you This is how what I work with companies.
1023
00:53:17.920 --> 00:53:20.039
This is one of the things that we do to
1024
00:53:20.280 --> 00:53:23.480
create high flow organizations, not even companies, just organizations. Because
1025
00:53:23.480 --> 00:53:25.920
we've done this with like the Efforts Police department in
1026
00:53:25.960 --> 00:53:28.440
the airport, like a lot of other things where we
1027
00:53:28.519 --> 00:53:32.119
all have activities that will produce microflow. I know when
1028
00:53:32.199 --> 00:53:35.159
I write or make a PowerPoint presentation or give a
1029
00:53:35.199 --> 00:53:39.280
speech for example, guaranteed microflow for me. I know that
1030
00:53:39.400 --> 00:53:42.639
when I have to do accounting or talk to my
1031
00:53:42.800 --> 00:53:46.960
lawyers or like do you know hardcore COO tests, it's
1032
00:53:47.000 --> 00:53:49.920
anti flow for me. I'm now not in flow. So
1033
00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:54.719
what we try to do is outsource things that are
1034
00:53:54.760 --> 00:53:59.719
anti flow and maximize opportunities for microflow audio increase in
1035
00:54:00.159 --> 00:54:03.880
your retention right neat problem in the workforce today, for example,
1036
00:54:04.159 --> 00:54:08.039
amplify opportunities for microflow in employees don't. You can't hire
1037
00:54:08.119 --> 00:54:11.519
for flow, but you consume the assigned asks in groups
1038
00:54:11.559 --> 00:54:14.000
and teams based on what do you get absorbed in.
1039
00:54:14.039 --> 00:54:16.320
And we actually will take it one further. We have
1040
00:54:16.440 --> 00:54:18.760
found that if you have an employees excellent at something
1041
00:54:19.119 --> 00:54:21.920
but it doesn't produce microflow for them, versus somebody who's
1042
00:54:21.960 --> 00:54:24.760
less excellent but it produces microflow, you are better off
1043
00:54:24.800 --> 00:54:28.800
as an organization braining up the less skilled person because
1044
00:54:29.079 --> 00:54:32.320
this activity is self fulfilling and it it's a feedback loop.
1045
00:54:32.480 --> 00:54:34.159
The other person is just going to get burned out
1046
00:54:34.199 --> 00:54:37.559
and they're going to lead your organization. So the long
1047
00:54:37.679 --> 00:54:40.320
answer very practical. I hope it was helpful.
1048
00:54:40.760 --> 00:54:44.840
No, absolutely, And so you know, begin with taking good
1049
00:54:44.840 --> 00:54:47.079
care of ourselves, you know, good self care and all
1050
00:54:47.159 --> 00:54:50.440
the different ways you talked about, and then outsourcing those
1051
00:54:50.480 --> 00:54:52.199
things to take us out of flow as much as
1052
00:54:52.239 --> 00:54:55.039
we can, you know, setting ourselves up for success, to
1053
00:54:55.159 --> 00:54:57.559
enhance these microflow experiences.
1054
00:54:57.960 --> 00:54:59.880
I have to say this, by the way, because this
1055
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:03.000
this is often people they want sexy wiz bang, you
1056
00:55:03.039 --> 00:55:05.119
know how the world is. They want a neat technology
1057
00:55:05.239 --> 00:55:07.880
or a pill or whatever. Like I woulds say, the
1058
00:55:07.920 --> 00:55:11.000
stuff with flow is like, it's not very sexy. Nothing
1059
00:55:11.119 --> 00:55:14.719
I teach from a fractate level is like going to
1060
00:55:14.800 --> 00:55:17.599
win you popularity contest is like the coolest thing, and
1061
00:55:18.000 --> 00:55:22.280
it's just very sort of fundamental practical, and it works incredible.
1062
00:55:22.400 --> 00:55:24.639
It usually works better than those other sexier things.
1063
00:55:24.960 --> 00:55:27.320
Not to make these a thing like everything you just
1064
00:55:27.400 --> 00:55:29.920
talked about, I think is really in some ways the
1065
00:55:29.960 --> 00:55:32.559
pathway and the on wrap for all of us. Is
1066
00:55:32.599 --> 00:55:37.760
there an importance to cultivating peak experiences of flow, macro
1067
00:55:37.800 --> 00:55:41.599
flow experiences and also maybe just as a rabbit hole
1068
00:55:41.639 --> 00:55:43.920
second part to that question for me, you talked about
1069
00:55:44.039 --> 00:55:48.159
some works done comparing flow states with psychedelic states and
1070
00:55:48.199 --> 00:55:52.000
there being some differences. So in some ways, are they
1071
00:55:52.039 --> 00:55:54.960
really different? Are these two different versions of flow and
1072
00:55:55.000 --> 00:55:57.719
that could also talk about other profound states.
1073
00:55:57.840 --> 00:56:01.079
Yes, okay, so that's really cool question. Let me take
1074
00:56:01.119 --> 00:56:04.440
the second one first. The difference is similarities. So we
1075
00:56:04.559 --> 00:56:06.079
have been doing a lot of work and I've got
1076
00:56:06.159 --> 00:56:07.719
We've got a paper coming out in a couple of
1077
00:56:07.719 --> 00:56:11.039
weeks in the Consciousness, the Journal of Neuroscience of Consciousness
1078
00:56:11.079 --> 00:56:15.840
on the relationship between flow and intuition, and this is
1079
00:56:15.880 --> 00:56:18.559
it's not quite psychedelics, but like you'll like how we
1080
00:56:18.639 --> 00:56:23.760
phrased it, there's this belief that flow is intuition in action,
1081
00:56:24.480 --> 00:56:30.800
and intuition is cognition and flow so very related. Now,
1082
00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:35.599
our psychedelic experience is similar to flow experiences. I think
1083
00:56:35.599 --> 00:56:41.280
you can have flow experiences inside of psychedelic experiences. One
1084
00:56:41.719 --> 00:56:44.840
like I think that it's certain psychedelics more than others,
1085
00:56:45.199 --> 00:56:49.760
But there are differences. Most of the major psychedelics are
1086
00:56:50.679 --> 00:56:56.039
every seratonin agonist serotoninist shows up and flow, but it's
1087
00:56:56.079 --> 00:56:58.079
at the tail end of a flow state. After a
1088
00:56:58.119 --> 00:57:01.000
flow state that calm and rest and relax nice in
1089
00:57:01.039 --> 00:57:05.719
the world. That's serotonin. But serotonin and dopamine work in
1090
00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:08.679
opposition to one another, like a lot of neual chemicals.
1091
00:57:08.719 --> 00:57:11.239
You know this, They work in opposition. So as serotonin
1092
00:57:11.280 --> 00:57:14.199
goes up, dopamine goes down, and vice versa. So a
1093
00:57:14.199 --> 00:57:18.360
lot of psychedelics are very serotonin heavy. Other neural chemicals
1094
00:57:18.360 --> 00:57:20.760
that show up in psychedelic experiences they all map, they're
1095
00:57:20.800 --> 00:57:24.960
all the same neuro chemicals. But sterotonin is turned really
1096
00:57:25.159 --> 00:57:29.079
up in psychedelic experiences, and it seems like dopamine endorphins
1097
00:57:29.119 --> 00:57:32.039
are crank and an atamat are cranked really up in
1098
00:57:32.119 --> 00:57:36.519
a flow experience. As to the question about like, I
1099
00:57:36.639 --> 00:57:38.920
can answer it a network level, like we know you're
1100
00:57:38.920 --> 00:57:41.440
in flow when your goal directed network and your executive
1101
00:57:41.480 --> 00:57:44.440
attention network are diven you'd swatched the default mode network
1102
00:57:44.480 --> 00:57:48.559
are turned off, right, So do those conditions exist inside
1103
00:57:48.599 --> 00:57:52.039
of some psychedelic states. Probably, Like there are moments you
1104
00:57:52.039 --> 00:57:54.599
could be on LSD where you're having a goal directed
1105
00:57:55.079 --> 00:57:58.679
thing interlude, and but there are moments where like you're
1106
00:57:58.920 --> 00:58:00.920
you know, in seventeen different parts of the universe, it
1107
00:58:01.000 --> 00:58:04.000
wants that there's nothing goal directed going on. I would
1108
00:58:04.039 --> 00:58:07.480
say that's very unflowing, right, not bad experience, but not
1109
00:58:07.519 --> 00:58:10.760
a flow experience. Just like but if you were going
1110
00:58:10.800 --> 00:58:14.360
from the psychological definition of flow, these six characteristics make
1111
00:58:14.440 --> 00:58:16.679
up the state you might see. They're prevalent both I
1112
00:58:17.159 --> 00:58:21.079
look at things neurobiologically and I see differences. You know,
1113
00:58:21.239 --> 00:58:24.480
are they in typer or hi? I don't know. It's
1114
00:58:24.519 --> 00:58:29.239
a great phenomenal question, and like future research needed here
1115
00:58:29.400 --> 00:58:29.840
for sure.
1116
00:58:30.440 --> 00:58:33.880
Absolutely, one last reflection, I'm really trying it. If we're
1117
00:58:33.880 --> 00:58:36.320
talking about really we're talking here about rewiring your beliefs.
1118
00:58:36.320 --> 00:58:38.719
This is a follow up some of to our Rewiring
1119
00:58:38.719 --> 00:58:42.480
your Brain summit and so really building on the possibilities
1120
00:58:42.480 --> 00:58:45.800
of optimizing our brain, optimizing our neural networks to optimize
1121
00:58:45.840 --> 00:58:49.239
our lives. So Dan Siegel talks about kind of an
1122
00:58:49.239 --> 00:58:52.199
optimized brain, that the neural networks of the brain are
1123
00:58:52.199 --> 00:58:55.559
becoming more complex to solve more complex problems, but they're
1124
00:58:55.559 --> 00:58:59.400
communicating very efficiently with each other. So it's becoming differentiated,
1125
00:58:59.400 --> 00:59:02.679
but well in a graded and a differentiated, well integrated
1126
00:59:02.719 --> 00:59:06.239
brain is a brain that's in flow between either virginity
1127
00:59:06.239 --> 00:59:08.800
and chaos. There's this river that he calls flow of
1128
00:59:08.800 --> 00:59:13.119
an optimal brain experience. Robin Carhart Harrison his theories and
1129
00:59:13.199 --> 00:59:15.920
trying to explain what's going on with psychiatics and psychoical
1130
00:59:16.000 --> 00:59:20.559
system therapy as this entropic brain theory where he posits
1131
00:59:20.639 --> 00:59:24.679
a kind of Goldilock zone that's somewhere between rigidity and chaos.
1132
00:59:25.079 --> 00:59:28.920
And maybe one last piece of that, John Berwiki talks
1133
00:59:28.960 --> 00:59:32.239
about flow in terms of this concentrated You know that
1134
00:59:32.360 --> 00:59:35.000
one of the things that brain's doing is constantly making
1135
00:59:35.079 --> 00:59:38.000
mean it from data, making new connections within data. So
1136
00:59:38.039 --> 00:59:41.880
there's this kind of rapid fire connecting and insights. We're
1137
00:59:41.880 --> 00:59:45.239
connecting things in new ways, and this is happening kind
1138
00:59:45.239 --> 00:59:47.960
of rapid fire and in a concentrated way, and thus
1139
00:59:48.000 --> 00:59:50.679
we're experiencing this kind of elevated state of flow. So
1140
00:59:50.719 --> 00:59:53.280
it all seems to be with like somehow the brain
1141
00:59:53.440 --> 00:59:55.480
is in this optimal space.
1142
00:59:56.480 --> 00:59:59.320
Yeah, you're actually all those phenomena are roughly through the
1143
00:59:59.360 --> 01:00:01.639
same phenomena. Right, If I were to put it in
1144
01:00:01.719 --> 01:00:04.840
Layman's terms, when we're in flow, we're taking in more
1145
01:00:04.840 --> 01:00:08.400
information per second, we're processing it more completely and more quickly.
1146
01:00:08.679 --> 01:00:11.519
To put it in terms of we worked with Robin
1147
01:00:11.519 --> 01:00:13.800
and his lab folks in his lab, and he's now
1148
01:00:13.960 --> 01:00:16.159
moved his lab to add of Gazzali's lab, who's on
1149
01:00:16.199 --> 01:00:19.760
our board, and I work with him too. He talks about, well,
1150
01:00:19.840 --> 01:00:21.760
we know this is work we've worked on a lot
1151
01:00:21.800 --> 01:00:25.079
of people worked on in pH psagedelic states in flow states.
1152
01:00:25.519 --> 01:00:27.679
Don't know if this is true. This is probably not
1153
01:00:27.840 --> 01:00:32.079
through all meditative states, and not all meditative states are flowing,
1154
01:00:32.400 --> 01:00:34.880
and the difference is actually dopeing. A lot of meditative
1155
01:00:34.880 --> 01:00:38.760
states don't produce any dopamine. If you're doing a caballistic visualization,
1156
01:00:39.199 --> 01:00:42.840
excited die meditation or whatever, you're transmorgifying letters and numbers,
1157
01:00:43.039 --> 01:00:45.760
or you're doing some of the bedding Buddhists, especially the
1158
01:00:45.760 --> 01:00:49.159
white lineage stuff, where there's some certain things they do
1159
01:00:49.199 --> 01:00:52.199
in Zend Buddhism that doesn't this too, it will produce
1160
01:00:52.280 --> 01:00:56.679
dopamine and thus can produce flow. So meditation doesn't always
1161
01:00:56.679 --> 01:00:58.679
produce flow, but one does that it does. That was
1162
01:00:58.719 --> 01:01:01.000
tangentially related to what I was saying, But we talked
1163
01:01:01.000 --> 01:01:04.280
about the edge of criticality, blow and psychedelicity. The brain
1164
01:01:04.559 --> 01:01:07.119
is best when it's poised on the edge of criticality.
1165
01:01:07.559 --> 01:01:10.119
Chaos is the next step over. It's right at the
1166
01:01:10.239 --> 01:01:13.000
edge of chaos, but it's not. It means there are
1167
01:01:13.719 --> 01:01:16.400
like a it means the patterns are repeating, but they're
1168
01:01:16.480 --> 01:01:20.159
not locking in. Right, they're oscillating and they're present, but
1169
01:01:20.239 --> 01:01:23.480
you're not locking in on one state. That's the edgecriticality
1170
01:01:23.559 --> 01:01:26.880
is maximum flexibility. So we know that sort of like
1171
01:01:27.039 --> 01:01:30.920
to answer your question, resilience and all the adaptive flexibility
1172
01:01:30.960 --> 01:01:34.840
and the edgecriticality is the brain at like maximum adaptive flexibility.
1173
01:01:34.920 --> 01:01:38.800
So the brain inflow on the edge of criticality is like,
1174
01:01:38.840 --> 01:01:42.800
that's your maximum maximum or you know, I'm saying this
1175
01:01:42.920 --> 01:01:46.719
authority datively as we've discovered so far right.
1176
01:01:46.960 --> 01:01:51.000
Right, well, extraordinary I mean fascinating and illuminating and just
1177
01:01:51.079 --> 01:01:54.559
overall I think inspiring and encouraging and empowering that we
1178
01:01:55.199 --> 01:01:58.159
you know, that this human journey is quite there's so
1179
01:01:58.280 --> 01:02:00.199
much we don't know, but we know a lot more,
1180
01:02:00.199 --> 01:02:03.639
but the possibilities seem to be pretty limitless. And having
1181
01:02:03.679 --> 01:02:06.400
the courage to step into you know, taking good care
1182
01:02:06.400 --> 01:02:09.440
of ourselves but also bringing ourselves to the edge of
1183
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our performance can really produce an extraordinary life and a
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meaningful life in so many ways.
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01:02:15.760 --> 01:02:19.559
I agree completely. That's definitely, you know, our standard flow
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training was just seventy to eight percent increase in flow.
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It's reliable, it's repeatable, it's trainable. So and this is
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what's in all of us. So you got to ask
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yourself when you think about these questions, what am I
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01:02:31.320 --> 01:02:33.480
capable of? Well? What would I do if I could
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be like five hundre percent more productive or you know,
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three hundred percent more creative or cut learning times? Now,
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this is literally what you know, the science of flow
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01:02:41.159 --> 01:02:43.159
makes available to each and every one of us. But
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I think to your point, what we do with that
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information is entirely up to you.
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You know, yeah, absolutely, And you know we all have
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different goals in life. And I love that you actually
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said we all experienced at flow a lot more than
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01:02:53.800 --> 01:02:55.840
maybe we think we do. And you know, one of
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01:02:55.840 --> 01:02:58.760
the questions sometimes you hear people talk about or try
1202
01:02:58.840 --> 01:03:01.320
to help people identify what their superpower is, and their
1203
01:03:01.360 --> 01:03:05.039
supermar could be anything. It could be like doing the laundry,
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01:03:05.079 --> 01:03:07.639
it could be cutting the grass. It could be said
1205
01:03:07.679 --> 01:03:10.239
through that we all have things that we're really good at,
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01:03:10.360 --> 01:03:13.159
we feel really confident about what we enjoy doing, and
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they're going to take us into some kind of flow
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and that's really accessible to all of us. Completely okay, wonderful. Well,
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01:03:19.360 --> 01:03:21.960
thank you on Stephen Kotler. This has been great having
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01:03:21.960 --> 01:03:24.320
you be part of our summit and just really appreciate
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you giving us your our audience, your time today and
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01:03:26.880 --> 01:03:29.800
sharing all your insight and ongoing research with us.
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Thank you, See this is my pleasure you well.
1214
01:03:32.960 --> 01:03:36.760
Taking radical responsibility for our lives means taking action, and
1215
01:03:36.840 --> 01:03:39.639
today you can start by helping us grow this community.
1216
01:03:39.920 --> 01:03:43.360
If these insights into healing and transformation have served you,
1217
01:03:43.679 --> 01:03:47.800
please subscribe on YouTube and follow us on Apple Podcasts
1218
01:03:47.880 --> 01:03:51.800
and Spotify. While you're there, leave us a review. It
1219
01:03:51.840 --> 01:03:54.960
takes thirty seconds, but it's the most powerful way to
1220
01:03:55.039 --> 01:03:58.840
help our message reach someone else seeking deeper self awareness.
1221
01:03:59.280 --> 01:04:02.880
Thank you for being part of the journey towards lasting change.
1222
01:04:03.639 --> 01:04:07.519
Thank you for joining me on the Radical Responsibility Podcast. Remember,
1223
01:04:07.599 --> 01:04:10.280
real change happens when we commit to our growth, face
1224
01:04:10.320 --> 01:04:13.920
our challenges with compassion, and stay open to transformation. If
1225
01:04:13.920 --> 01:04:17.199
you found this episode helpful, I encourage you to subscribe
1226
01:04:17.199 --> 01:04:20.559
and help us spread the message of healing and personal empowerment.
1227
01:04:20.639 --> 01:04:23.840
Stay grounded, stay present, and stay true to you. Take
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01:04:23.880 --> 01:04:24.119
care