Tania de Jong | The Citizen Campaign That Made Australia First in Psychedelic Medicine

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I mean, the reason why there's so many people seeking
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so many different alternative therapies is because the current medicines
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or drugs in the pharmaceutical system are not working for
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as many people as they need to be, and there's
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an enormous amount of unnecessary suffering that's occurring. And there's
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a range of different treatments that are safe and effective
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that are being discovered by citizens because we now have
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a worldwide web and we have many ways that people
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can discover these treatments, and if they can't get them
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legally in clinical environments, then they're going to go underground
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and try and get them off the black market or
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hate their own risks, because people, at the end of
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the day want to get well. They want to lead
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a meaningful life and a happy and healthy life, which
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is every person's birth.
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Ry Australia made history by rescheduling MDMA and psilocybin for
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therapeutic use, and it didn't happen the usual way. It
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came from thousands of citizens submissions, growing scientific evidence and
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a recognition that current mental health treatments just aren't working
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for most people. In this episode, I sit down with
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Ty Young to talk about how they made it happen,
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what this means for patients and psychiatrists, and why taking
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ownership of your own mental health might be more important
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than ever. This is about changing the system when the
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system isn't serving people.
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Mine is doctor Fleetmont and I'm very happy to be
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here this morning with Tanya de Jong. How are you?
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Tanya?
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Very good, Thank you Slate. It's a pleasure to be
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with you again.
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Your career covers so many dimensions of society and it's
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such a celebrated career. It's quite amazing. And we are
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going to focus on a particular aspect of your work
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for this interview on mind Medicine Australia and your advocacy
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for psycholic assisted medicines and therapies as something you and
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your husband came very passionate about and you've been very
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successful in moving that moving forward in Australia. So, as
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we all know, about eighteen months ago in Australia, the TGA,
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which is for those in the US it's equivalent of
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the FDA more or less, and in Europe to the
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EMA approved and rescheduled both MDMA and psilocyberin therapeutic use.
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I believe this went into effect in July of last year,
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July first of last year. And so this is a
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decision that has been celebrated broadly internationally in the psycholic community,
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among advocates for psychoic system medicine, and it's also brought
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up some issues around the whole process of how psycholic drugs,
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which are considered by some that have risks associated with them,
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go through a process of determining safety and advocacy and
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become approved by agencies and then rescheduled for prescription by
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medical professional psychological professionals. And in Australia, although your applications
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were based on the current scientific evidence as it stands,
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the process was quite influenced by more traditional lobbying and
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advocacy efforts. Some abraid some questions about where the locus
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of decision making arises. Is it through those kind of efforts,
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Is it should be sold into purview of the scientific community,
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should be solely the result of a long clinical trial process,
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and so forth, Like what's going on here in the US.
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I'm just curious about your thoughts about how you managed
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to create this amazing success. I mean, really the first
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country in the world to do this, and quite inspiring.
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I remember when I first saw in the news, I
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was like, wow, you know, it's amazing. So your thoughts
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about that and what's currently going on in the US.
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We have this pending decision of the FDA here this
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month and so forth, So just your thoughts on the
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overall process of how this works and how it might
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work going forward for other countries.
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Sure, well, I mean, obviously, you know, we're all delighted,
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not just a psychedelic community, but the broader community in
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general is very excited about the rescheduling of these medicines.
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And at first we couldn't believe it when we read
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the announcement. I kept saying to my husband, are you're sure,
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You're sure? And then I read it for myself and
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we started dancing around the kitchen. But I would just
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preface this by saying that there is confusion between rescheduling
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of an unregistered medicine, which is what occurred in Australia,
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as compared to the registration of a medicine, which is
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what's currently in process in the US with MDMA. So
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with the rescheduling of an unregistered medicine, you still need
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to present an enormous amount of scientific data to support
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safety and efficacy to the regulator. So that was all
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provided to a therapeutic group and these submissions are available
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on our website so people can see their very long
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and detailed documents. And the rescheduling applications wouldn't have succeeded
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if the TGA had not agreed with the scientific arguments
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that we put forward, and then we combined those scientific
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arguments with a major campaign to drive it home to
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the TGA and the government more broadly that the levels
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of suffering in our community are so very high and
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current treatments and mental illness don't work for the majority
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of patients. So, in other words, given the system failure
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for many people, unregistered medicines providing they satisfy the safety
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and efficacy requirements for unregistered medicines are scene as a
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way of balancing the need for innovation human suffering against
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the long, arduous and expensive process involved with more trials
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and registration. So the Australian Government was provided with existing
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trial data to make their decision, and of course much
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of that data is extremely compelling and that supported their
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rescheduling decision. Now, of course we're seeing that similar campaign
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is being used by MAPS as part of its registration
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application for MDMA currently in the US. But at the
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end of the day, bureaucrats have to weigh up their
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understanding of the scientific data available with the enormous levels
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of unnecessary suffering in the community, which are unacceptable in
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my opinion, So.
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Just soundclear about this. So in Australia then, were MDMA
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and psilocybin already previously registered drugs.
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No, so the rescheduling enables unregistered medicine. So this has
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happened as well with medicinal cannabis in the past few years.
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Okay, I understand that yet.
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Yeah, so that's the sort of process that we achieved
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and was a world first because Australia was the first
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nation to reschedule these medicines. But that's entirely different from
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the registration process taking place in the US. Not to say,
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though the registration will not occur in a strategy, it's
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very likely to occur for both medicines in the coming years.
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I see. I think generally the language at least so
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most people are using here in the US as FDA approval,
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which is the same thing as registration. So I suppose
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it would have been possible to get the DEA to
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reschedule MDMA without the FDA approval process, but very unlikely.
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I think in this country. It seems to be that
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those processes are pretty deeply embedded. And it does look
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like if the FDA approves MDMA as now a registered
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drug with medical purposes that by the DEAs on policies,
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it will almost be the facto that it will reschedule it.
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We'll find out about that soon because the decision is pending.
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You're probably aware of the not so wonderful recommendation from
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the DEA Advisory Committee, So the FDA Advisory Committee, I
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wonder if you have any thoughts on that. Some people
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felt that, you know, they were expressing reasonable caution and
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pointing to some reasonable questions about the protocols, but the
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research protocols, but others that seem myself included. It seemed
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very ill informed and didn't acknowledge that the FDA was
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involved in the protocol designed to begin with.
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So it seems they provided the breakthrough therapy status to
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begin with, right, I mean yes, I mean it would
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be very disappointing if this was not registered at this
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time because the scientific data demonstrably does support registration. These
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Phase three trials are very compelling, and the remission rates
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are so so high, and I'm sure you'll be covering
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that in the summer. Now, we'll have to wait and
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see what the FDA actually says. For example, they may
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require more information. I believe it's highly unlikely they'll straight
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out reject We've read the transcript of the FDA advisory
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hearing and we don't believe the advisory members were well informed,
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and nearly all of them were from different, unrelated fields
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of expertise. And we have to get beyond the blinding argument.
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We need to focus on those who are suffering, rather
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than expecting a perfect system to begin with, which hasn't
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actually been invented yet. The whole point is really to
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bring these therapies into practice, develop real world evidence, and
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then work out what are the most effective therapies that
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create the longest lasting remissions for patients.
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All this kind of brings up some really important issues
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in our healthcare systems worldwide altogether, and especially in the West,
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around the empowerment of patients, the role of citizen advocacy,
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and so forth. Here in the US, there was a
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lot of suppression of alternative medicines for a long time,
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and including by the FDA in some ways even criminal
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criminalization of it. And it was really the citizens rea
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just I mean, at one point it was discovered that
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the US citizens were spending something like sixty percent of
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their healthcare dollars on alternative treatments and alternative medicines, and
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I think that woke up the establishment. But this is
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clearly people want things that work, and they want access
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to things that are going to provide healing, and I
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think they want a greater voice. There's there's this separated
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around the world of microdosing up kind of citizen research,
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the work of James Fadoman and Paul Staminton. They've collected
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a lot of direct report data from citizens and now
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in Paul stams case, that is going to lead to
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some clinical trials. But you know, there's I think it's
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as interesting as we see this whole landscape moving and
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changing the role of the scientific community, the role of
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the citizen try and advocates the role of the patient
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and the physicians, as well as the political implications. So
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by anyway that it's great news that you were successful
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in Australia. So now that it happened and I guess
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it's actually been in maybe to prescribe it for about
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a year now. So how are things on folding there?
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Well, Flada, wouldn't mine just co going back to just
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your point on citizen advocacy and things like that just
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for a moment, because I didn't mention. But there were
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more than ten times as many subiicients supporting the mdmain's
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hylocybin applications that we put into the TGA than ever
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received for any other medicines, including medicinal cannabis. And the
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bulk of the public submissions came from people who had
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direct stakeholders and the mental health system, so for example, researchers, clinicians,
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patients and their carers. So these are the people who
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directly see the level of suffering in communities, and in
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the case of researchers and clinicians, they're very capable of
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analyzing currently available scientific data. And in the case of patients,
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there is a human right that you know, anyone should
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have access to safe and effective medicines, and that at
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the end of the day, these decisions of what is
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prescribed to a patient should be a decision that is
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made by the doctor and their patient. Not by governments
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and other bodies. It really is up to an individual
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doctrine to make that decision. And to your point about
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alternative therapies, yes, I mean the reason why there's so
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many people seeking so many different alternative therapies is because
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the current medicines or drugs in the pharmaceutical system are
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not working for as many people as they need to be,
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and there's an enormous amount of unnecessary suffering that's occurring.
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And there's a range of different treatments that are safe
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and effective that are being discovered by citizens because we
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now have a world wide web and we have many
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ways that people can discover these treatments, and if they
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can't get them legally in clinical environments, then they're going
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to go underground and try and get them off the
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black market or hate their own risks. Because people, at
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the end of the day want to get well. They
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want to lead a meaningful life and a happy and
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healthy life, which is every person's birth ride.
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Well, I think that's one of your wrongest arguments for rescheduling,
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is not pushing people into the underground where there's a
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lot less regulation and a lot more risk, because people
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clearly want to make use of medicines. They are going
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to be to figure out how to do this quite
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extraordinating it. You also submitted as part of that process
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thousands of individual citizens submissions right of their own experience
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with psycholic medicines.
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Well, they submitted them. I mean, there was over thirteen
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thousand submissions from researchers, clinicians, patients and their carers, and
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ninety eight percent of those submissions were in favor of
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the rescheduling. So at the end of the day, when
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you have that many people demanding change, it's very difficult
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for anybody to then say no, given the levels of suffering.
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And you know, many of these people are veterans and
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first responders, people who've served the nation and have gone
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through terrible traumas and they deserve the chance to heal.
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And current treatments, as you'd be well aware, in the
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case of antidepressants, and only about fifteen to maximum thirty
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percent of patients going to remission, and in the case
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of post traumatic stress disorder, as few as five to
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ten percent of patients are going through remission from existing treatments.
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Now you compare that against the sixty to eighty percent
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remission rates after just two to three treatments of psilos
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cybern or MDMA with a short course of psychotherapy. And
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why wouldn't you're citizen who's suffering demand and request and
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be given access in a clinical environment to these sorts
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of treatments with trained cognitions. That seems fair enough to me.
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I would have to agree. So it's been about a year.
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How was that being rolled out?
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Yeah, you know, look it's slow, but these treatments are
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taking place. So since January this year January twenty twenty four,
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psychiatrists who have achieved what's called authorized Prescriber's status, which
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is given to psychiatrists who've done training either in our
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CPAC course or other professional training in psychedelic assisted therapies,
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then present to a Human Research Ethics Committee and for
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their particular protocols of treatment. And once they receive those approvals,
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then they put that submission into the TGA, who then
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gives them permission to be an authorized prescriber if they're
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if they believe that their protocols right and they've got
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the approval of the ethics committee. And so far, anyone
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that I'm aware of who's applied for that status under
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those conditions has received authorized prescriber status and so now
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those psychiatrists with their therapeutic teams in multidisciplinary therapeutic teams
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are providing psychedelic assistive therapy treatments to patients with treatment
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resistant depression and for psylocybin and host traumatic stress disorder
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with MDMAY and there's been a number of psychiatrists given
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that status. I think there's something like maybe around fifteen
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or so in Australia so far spread out around Australia,
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and that might not seem like a lot, but they
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can do quite a lot of treatments and slowly, slowly,
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more and more treatments at taking place. We've also set
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up a registry with the Australian National University to collect
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real world evidence and data so that this data can
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be collected and we're getting real world evidence coming into
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the field from these psychiatris about their patient's progress and
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so on, so they have to report to the registrant.
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So that's very exciting and we're hearing very promising reports
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of you know, outstanding and transformational healing with some of
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the patients that have already gone through these treatments.
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In terms of the combination of the treatment with psychotherapy.
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Are the psychiatrists also doing the therapy? Are they the
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prescriber and then they work with psychotherapists who are doing
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so is there a combination. Can psychotherapists who maybe have
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master's level and licensing a psychotherapists work with the prescriber?
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Yes? So you know some of the psychiatrists that at
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the moment are choosing to do the therapy themselves. I
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don't think that will be for the long term because
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very time consuming, expensive. But I think they're learning and
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they're wanting to just do it. But they're working with
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psychologists primarily, and some are working with mental health nurses
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and others and psychotherapists and so on to ensure that
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they do have this multidisciplinary tine that has this vast
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range of therapeutic skills to sit with the patients and
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make sure that these experiences can be the most meaningful
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and healing impossible.
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So in Australia, are there limitations on who can work
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with a psychiatrist prescriber and do the therapy. I'm asking
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this because when people are talking about bringing this to
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scale in the US, they're talking about there's such a
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need and they're talking about not only having licensed clinicians
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psychotherapists with master's level licensing and so forth, but even
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beginning to develop maybe guides who work under the auspices
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of a prescriber or something, but who are not licensed
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clinicians themselves.
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Yes, So the TGA has recently said that the second
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therapist can be an allied health profession like it doesn't
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have to be a psychiatrist or a psychologist. So that's
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great news. And we're training a broad range of therapists
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and allied health professionals ranging from obviously psychiatrists to psychologists,
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GP specialist physicians and addiction specialists and so on, psychotherapists, counselors, nurses,
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social workers, occupational therapists, even you know, natural paths and
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Chinese doctors and so on. Choosing to do this training
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because I think that many therapists are saying this as
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a very prospective future career for them, and they're very
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interested in this feel because of the remission rates and
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the chances, the higher chances to get their patients.
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Well, well, let's talk a little bit about your training programs.
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So I'm curious about the scale of it to begin with,
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how many cohort you have going, how many people you're
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able to train a year, how long your training programs are.
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But then also maybe talking about what do you think
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some of the more important principles involved in the training.
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00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:41.720
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320
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So we started out training at the beginning of twenty
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twenty one Certificate and Psychedelic Assistant Therapies, which by the way,
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Professor David Nutt has named on Radio National ABC as
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the world's leading psychedelic assisted therapy training. And you will
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have seen extraordinary faculty which is led by doctor Gita Bade,
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a psychiatrist in New York, she's the international course director,
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and then doctor Ali Cuttler, a psychiatrist in Australia who's
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the national course director. And we have this extraordinary faculty
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including people like Professor Nutt and Doblin and bessel Vandercolt,
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Gabble Matte and many many of the leading experts in
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the field who have vast experience in training clinicians and
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working with these therapies both in trials and in practice
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in clinical practice where they can. Obviously, so Geto has
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vast experience working with ketemine, particularly in New York. But
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essentially we've trained I think by the end of this
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year will have trained five hundred over five hundred clinicians
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and therapists from all the professional disciplines that I mentioned earlier.
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And our course combines our online training. So we have
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a fourteen week online training program which includes assessments and
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lectures and so on, people like doctor Bill Richards, who's
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extraordinary as well, giving these wonderful lectures. And then there's
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a one week intensive where they go through a lot
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of the actual practical ways of how to hold space
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for patients and work with patients using holotropic breathwork as
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the medium, to work with one another in altered states,
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and then support one another in those So it's all
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about combining the theoretical with the practical and by being trained
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by people with real world expertise in these therapies in
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clinical environments. You know, we're seeing a lot of courses
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emerging around the world, some of them with teachers with
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limited expertise. So I just say to everyone out there,
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do you do diligence on the caliber of teachers for
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any courses and make sure that you are working with
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the best courses you can. In fact, we have people
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registering for US course from Europe and the UK, and
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the US as well as Australia, which is wonderful to see,
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and the UK as well. I keep forgetting that the
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UK is no longer in the.
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Ear so around training, one of the this is is
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is if you're providing training in psycholic assist psychotherapy as
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a specialty to a therapist who's already been clinically trained,
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that's one thing. If you're training others who have not
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had that training, you know. The reason I bring that
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up is, for example, if someone's been thoroughly trained as
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a psychotherapist, a psychologists doing direct therapy, you know, they
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understand a lot of the ethical frameworks of psychotherapy. They
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understand transference and countertransference, not just academically but experientially. And
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I think the bar for these things is raised with
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psycholic drops because the possibilities of those things do become
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somewhat heightened under the effects of psychoic medicine. So I'm
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wondering if, for example, if someone's coming into your program
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who's an allied THERAPYT or you mentioned some of the
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other professions that might not have had that kind of
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psychotherapeutic clinical training, is there the opportunity for them to
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get that. So, I mean this is a moving landscape
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within the US as well, with all the different trainings,
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but there's kind of a core set of clinical skills
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that I think are fundamental even in a broader world
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of you know, not to take anything away from the
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genuine world of South America and the international shamanic traditions
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and their deep training and their experience, but Western shamanism
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here in the US. Some may have been thoroughly trained
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in other countries, but yet they may not have had
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any training in traditional psychotherapy or understand really those psychological
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dynamics and so forth. So the importance of really good
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clinical psychological or good clinical training to understand, you know,
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how to safely engage in a psychotherapeutic process with a
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client where there are a lot of vulnerabilities on both sides.
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No, absolutely, I mean that is the real strength of
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our course. And at fact, I mean quite often it's
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doctors themselves and psychiatrists themselves who actually lack a lot
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of that therapeutic training because they've mainly been prescribers, and
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so they're the ones often who need more of that guidance,
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and our course seems to be ticking those boxes. If
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people go and have a look at our CEPAT website,
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they'll see the testimonials from students ranging from psychiatrists and
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doctors who've described the course as life changing, regardless of
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just the psychedelical system therapies. I think they're developing skills
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that they otherwise wouldn't have developed through this training, which
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is extremely important. And we're finding that the intakes for
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our course, we have two intakes each year, one and
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I think it's the start of February and one in
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July and each year, and those intakes are traditionally oversubscribed
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because there's so much demand, especially for this very high
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level of training with a faculty like the one that
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we're working with.
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So let's talk a little bit about, you know, how
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this goes to scale access, stability and equity and access
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for people. I'm curious to begin with. Was ketamine already
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prescribable and was there ketamine system therapy being practiced in Australia.
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Yes, it's I think it might be scheduled for I'd
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have to check on that, but it's been available, it
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hasn't been used that much. There are some ketamine clinics
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in Australia and psychiatrists who are specializing in ketamine assisted therapy.
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It's becoming more and more of interest now and we're
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deliberately including units of it in our various development courses
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in our CEA pattern. We've also just launched a new
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course called Fundamentals of Psychedelic Assisted Therapies in partnership with
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Drug Science in the United Kingdom, and I think there's
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also a unit on ketamine in that course. So we
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feel it's important to focus on absolutely psilocybine and MDA.
439
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Maybe ketamine is in some cases can be easier to use,
440
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but the problem of ketamine from what I have heard,
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is that it needs to be used more regularly, and
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it's the remission rates don't seem to be quite as successful.
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In other words, it's something that maybe needs to be
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used over and over, whereas in the case of psilocybin
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and MDUMA, your emission rates are occurring after just two
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to three treatments.
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I think there's a distinction between here in the US anywhere,
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there's a fairly broad infrastructure already for kedemenisism psychotherapy, but
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there's a distinction between the infusion clinics where people are
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going in and just getting an infusion of ketamine without psychotherapy,
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which has shown some positive effects for people suffering from depression.
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But nonetheless, I think if you look at the data
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with the combination of psychotherapy and ketamine used like doctor
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d Debate is doing in her practice, I think the
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results are pretty compelling. But the reason I bring that
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up is so the infrastructure exists you in the US
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for keateemedistis psychotherapy is fairly why it's spread a lot
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of clinics, it's still not going to answer the need
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or really there's still a lot of questions about how
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to take it to scale. You know, So how do
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you imagine, for example, is there all one on one therapy?
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Is there any notions of any kind of group therapy?
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How do you imagine just going to scale in Australia
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from where you are now?
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Yeah, so it's interesting about the group therapy. So we
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part funded a trial at Australian National University which was
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for healthy persons and it was for people who had
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done professional training, so it was for therapists and they
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actually did it in a group therapy environment. And we're
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very supportive of that sort of environment for the integration
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part of the experience, because it can offer enormous cost savings,
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but it can also offer you know, I'm not in
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this alone. You know, the fact of being in a
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group and learning from the group is very powerful. Is
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I think a lot of your listeners will know, and
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I know that you would appreciate that in your field,
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and so being in a group can be a very
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powerful way. And I'm hoping and I believe that we're
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going to see elements of group therapy coming into this field,
480
00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:50.720
if not only for the cost, but for other reasons
481
00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:53.119
as well, but certainly to save money. And we're also
482
00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:56.640
starting to see in terms of costs in Australia, we're
483
00:26:56.640 --> 00:27:00.119
seeing a lot of interests now merging from health insurers
484
00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:03.400
and there's also the potential for government subsidies in Australia.
485
00:27:03.400 --> 00:27:06.759
But in the meantime, at Mind Medicine Australia, we've started
486
00:27:06.759 --> 00:27:10.160
a patient support fund where we're providing up to fifty
487
00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:14.599
percent of the upfront costs of a treatment program, which
488
00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:18.440
is around about in Australian dollars twenty to twenty five
489
00:27:18.839 --> 00:27:23.160
thirty thousand dollars and we're providing half the cost to
490
00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:27.319
patients who demonstrate real need who otherwise wouldn't be able
491
00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:29.960
to afford the cost of treatments, and some of those
492
00:27:29.960 --> 00:27:33.359
are veterans and first responders again that we've already supported
493
00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:34.960
to have these treatments.
494
00:27:35.079 --> 00:27:37.880
So currently it's a private pay situation, but there is
495
00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:40.640
some interest from the insurance groups that there could be
496
00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:44.039
third party reimbursement to providers. And in the meantime, you're
497
00:27:44.200 --> 00:27:47.559
raising money to do some funding to support accessibility.
498
00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:52.480
Yeah, government subsidies may very well become possible too, so
499
00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:54.880
you know, just step by step.
500
00:27:55.720 --> 00:27:59.359
And yet still, you know, even with all those different possibilities,
501
00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:02.240
a course of even costing twenty thousand dollars or so,
502
00:28:02.599 --> 00:28:03.799
it's still a pretty high bar.
503
00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:06.559
It's an expensive training, so that that's a lot less
504
00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:08.359
than US dollars. If you look at some of the
505
00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:12.480
economic modeling that's been done, the cost savings are really enormous.
506
00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:14.440
I mean, like I know, you know, I was thinking
507
00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:16.920
to Rick Doblin about this even a few years ago,
508
00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:19.759
and he was saying that the average cost savings would
509
00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:22.400
be well over one hundred thousand US dollars per patient
510
00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:26.039
for those with post traumatic stress disorder from these treatments
511
00:28:26.039 --> 00:28:29.279
over a period of years and decades that the patient
512
00:28:29.319 --> 00:28:33.079
would otherwise remain unwell, and then all the lost opportunities
513
00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:36.079
of that person, they're suffering, their family suffering at the
514
00:28:36.119 --> 00:28:38.759
extra care needed and so on. So if we can
515
00:28:38.839 --> 00:28:41.799
get people well and out of the system in you know,
516
00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:44.920
a three months four months treatment protocol, well, isn't that
517
00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:47.519
wonderful and give people their lives back.
518
00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:50.960
Yeah, the arguments for long term cost savings and benefit
519
00:28:51.079 --> 00:28:53.240
to patients seem very compelling, and it's more than in
520
00:28:53.240 --> 00:28:54.920
the short term. How do we get it out there
521
00:28:54.920 --> 00:28:56.640
to people? And it sounds like you're taking care a
522
00:28:56.680 --> 00:29:01.400
number of strategic approaches. That's wonderful. So my Medicine's Jay.
523
00:29:01.720 --> 00:29:05.960
Were you also involved in advocating for medical cannabis use.
524
00:29:06.599 --> 00:29:08.960
No, we weren't involved in That was before Peter and
525
00:29:09.039 --> 00:29:11.559
I had even had any drugs in our lives, our
526
00:29:11.599 --> 00:29:14.319
first experience with anything. I mean, like, we'd never had
527
00:29:14.440 --> 00:29:19.400
drugs until twenty sixteen when I read this article about
528
00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:22.359
psychedelic assisted therapist and we went to the Netherlands and
529
00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:25.519
we undertook this treatment with a you know, professional guide,
530
00:29:25.599 --> 00:29:28.440
and it was really life changing, but so a lot
531
00:29:28.440 --> 00:29:31.160
of the work on medicinal cannabis had taken place by
532
00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:34.599
then or was taking place. And now in Australia over
533
00:29:34.680 --> 00:29:38.880
one one million prescriptions have gone through from medicinal cannabis.
534
00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:40.319
So that just goes to show, you know, we only
535
00:29:40.359 --> 00:29:42.000
have a population of about it, what I think, twenty
536
00:29:42.039 --> 00:29:45.440
five twenty six million, so one million prescriptions. I mean,
537
00:29:45.480 --> 00:29:48.079
sure some of them are pre prescriptions, but that's still
538
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:53.920
a growing body of people having access to these important medicines.
539
00:29:54.519 --> 00:29:56.400
Yeah, and those are changes certainly here in the US.
540
00:29:56.400 --> 00:29:59.599
So we're driven by citizen advocacy and citizen demand. Really
541
00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:01.519
people wanted it and it's still actually it has not
542
00:30:01.519 --> 00:30:03.839
been approved by the federal government, but it's been improved
543
00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:05.839
that most of the states, and so it's just happening.
544
00:30:05.880 --> 00:30:08.759
And fortunately it doesn't look like the federal government's going
545
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:10.759
to step in the blocket, but they haven't changed the
546
00:30:10.759 --> 00:30:13.799
scheduling of cannabis shit. So the reason I asked that though,
547
00:30:14.039 --> 00:30:18.519
is other psychaic medicines. Whether my Medicine Australia is involved
548
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:22.119
in the process of research and possibly bringing along other
549
00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:25.640
medicines that are under research like LS and DMT, is
550
00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:28.640
a synthetic drug. But then there's also plant medicines like
551
00:30:28.680 --> 00:30:31.720
ayahuasca and others in that whole larger world. So is
552
00:30:31.759 --> 00:30:35.319
there an ongoing interest or intention in terms of broadening
553
00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:38.279
this in terms of the availability of plant medicines in general.
554
00:30:38.839 --> 00:30:41.240
I mean, at the moment, we're focused on the three
555
00:30:41.319 --> 00:30:43.799
we've talked about because they're the ones that can be
556
00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:47.079
used in clinical environments at the moment, so we're focused
557
00:30:47.119 --> 00:30:50.039
on those. But it's likely, you know, given the research
558
00:30:50.079 --> 00:30:52.680
that's taking place around the world with a number of
559
00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:55.960
these other medicines that you've just mentioned, that more and
560
00:30:56.039 --> 00:30:59.480
more of those will come to be available, hopefully in
561
00:30:59.480 --> 00:31:03.000
clinical environments so people don't have to go underground to
562
00:31:03.079 --> 00:31:05.920
get them or to go overseas, which is what commonly
563
00:31:05.960 --> 00:31:08.400
happens in Australia. And of course we have you know,
564
00:31:08.480 --> 00:31:11.319
a large population of people I think micro dosing is
565
00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:14.880
there and that's happening in Silicon Valley too. You know,
566
00:31:14.960 --> 00:31:17.720
they say that any entrepreneurs not micro dosing is going
567
00:31:17.759 --> 00:31:20.319
to fall behind the other entrepreneurs, So I think we
568
00:31:20.359 --> 00:31:24.279
also have that amongst entrepreneurs and also just general you know,
569
00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:27.680
mums and dads in Australia and even grandmoms and granddads
570
00:31:28.039 --> 00:31:31.559
who are learning about microdosing and starting to just take
571
00:31:31.599 --> 00:31:34.160
this into their own hands because they want to feel better,
572
00:31:34.279 --> 00:31:37.359
or perhaps they want to explore more of their creativity
573
00:31:37.400 --> 00:31:40.119
and become more productive. There's many reasons why people might
574
00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:42.960
choose to micro dose that may not relate to a
575
00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:46.720
mental illness. It could be all about creativity. And look,
576
00:31:46.759 --> 00:31:49.200
at the end of the day, I think as human beings,
577
00:31:49.880 --> 00:31:52.160
you know, if we can unlock more of our creativity,
578
00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:55.680
we can solve more of the wicked problems that we're facing.
579
00:31:55.880 --> 00:31:59.559
Humanity is, you know, facing the worst and most difficult
580
00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:01.559
could challenges right now.
581
00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:03.319
Well, let me ask you a question about the whole
582
00:32:03.319 --> 00:32:06.839
microdosing movement. Psilocybin is one of the more common plant
583
00:32:06.880 --> 00:32:11.680
medicines that's used in microdosing, often in combination with other mushrooms, lions,
584
00:32:11.759 --> 00:32:14.880
maine and others, and some kind of microsing stack as
585
00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:19.000
they call it. Though, has the approval of psilocybin or
586
00:32:19.079 --> 00:32:22.279
prescription does that have any impact on, for example, the
587
00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:27.519
government's view around people incorporating psilocybin as part of a
588
00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:31.759
microosing regime, which are usually in very small not psychoactive.
589
00:32:32.039 --> 00:32:34.759
I mean microeth deptition is not psychoactive.
590
00:32:35.160 --> 00:32:37.599
Well, it's crazy, isn't it. But microdosing if it's god
591
00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:41.160
soslocybin or LST or whatever and is illegal seal, yeah,
592
00:32:41.880 --> 00:32:45.680
even though it's a perceptual and you know, yeah, it's
593
00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:48.319
just these strange things in the system. I mean, like
594
00:32:48.480 --> 00:32:51.759
in Australia, for example, you can pick a poisonous mushroom
595
00:32:51.799 --> 00:32:54.559
and need it and die and that's not illegal. But
596
00:32:54.640 --> 00:32:57.359
if you happen to pick a psilocybin mushroom put it
597
00:32:57.359 --> 00:33:01.200
to your lips and taste it, that is illegal. It's crazy.
598
00:33:02.079 --> 00:33:05.799
There's just so many realise in these laws and I
599
00:33:05.799 --> 00:33:08.240
can't wait for the day that there's some consistency and
600
00:33:08.319 --> 00:33:12.440
that people actually have clarity and can have access to
601
00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:15.319
medicines and can clearly know what's unsafe.
602
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:18.960
Also, yeah, well I think that's the important and I
603
00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:21.880
think you know the importance of not only having well
604
00:33:21.960 --> 00:33:26.599
trained prescribers, well trained therapists, well trained guides in baldness movements,
605
00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:28.799
so people who go to.
606
00:33:28.839 --> 00:33:32.839
Above ground clinical medical settings have some confidence they're going
607
00:33:32.920 --> 00:33:36.119
to be dealing with competent providers, but also the importance
608
00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:39.240
of educating the consumer that you know, we need to
609
00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:42.480
be educated consumers and we need to know, you know,
610
00:33:42.599 --> 00:33:45.240
at least participate in I mean, I think the thing
611
00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:48.519
of safety there can be a regulatory effort. I think
612
00:33:48.519 --> 00:33:50.640
it's been in this country very much that all the
613
00:33:50.680 --> 00:33:53.359
safety has to be created by regulation. The consumer scene
614
00:33:53.480 --> 00:33:57.400
is kind of passive, naive, you know, non active participant,
615
00:33:57.680 --> 00:34:00.240
which I don't think is so helpful. I think more
616
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:03.880
of a balance, so where there's really efforts and requirements
617
00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:07.240
for consumers to be educated, so they're making thoughtful, educated
618
00:34:07.279 --> 00:34:10.760
decisions around whether they're going to engage in microdocing or
619
00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:12.599
how they're going to do that, or if they're going
620
00:34:12.679 --> 00:34:15.000
to seek out a provider, how they're going to do that.
621
00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:17.639
And then there's courses, this whole underground movement, both of
622
00:34:17.719 --> 00:34:21.079
people's personal exploration as well as underground therapy going on.
623
00:34:21.239 --> 00:34:23.639
So you know, there's not a lot of guardrails at
624
00:34:23.679 --> 00:34:26.679
the moment, so people need to educate themselves.
625
00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:29.239
They do. I mean I read something recently that said
626
00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:32.559
we should all be, you know, our own chief medical officer,
627
00:34:33.159 --> 00:34:35.480
and I really believe that. I think it's really really
628
00:34:35.559 --> 00:34:38.159
important to look at any kind of treatment that you're
629
00:34:38.440 --> 00:34:44.119
being recommended, do you due diligence, same with training due diligence.
630
00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:46.960
You know, it's just incredibly important to learn and to
631
00:34:47.079 --> 00:34:50.199
learn about country indications. But you know, every one of
632
00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:54.480
us is unique, and unfortunately what happens is people get
633
00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:58.440
prescribed a lot of allopathic medicines. They often contraindicate with
634
00:34:58.480 --> 00:35:01.159
one another because they have different special less patients. Not
635
00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:05.599
at the center, there's not a multidisciplinary approach. And what
636
00:35:05.639 --> 00:35:08.639
that really is asking each of us is to do
637
00:35:08.679 --> 00:35:11.599
our own research, to do our own homework and not
638
00:35:11.679 --> 00:35:14.800
relying even on I mean, sure, you know, take advice
639
00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:17.159
from a doctor, but usually I'd say get a second
640
00:35:17.159 --> 00:35:20.280
opinion anyway, and you know, just really learn about what
641
00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:21.519
you're putting into your body.
642
00:35:21.960 --> 00:35:25.039
There's also a movement, as a beginning merging movement here
643
00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:27.719
in the US around personalized medicine. The fact that current
644
00:35:27.760 --> 00:35:31.800
allopathic medicine is not to be dismissions of the important
645
00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:34.039
research at all. But still it's not addressing me as
646
00:35:34.039 --> 00:35:37.000
an individual. It's addressing this bell curve and it's saying, well,
647
00:35:37.400 --> 00:35:39.400
the science says that you know, this may or may
648
00:35:39.440 --> 00:35:41.840
not have effect, so insurance is not going to cover
649
00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:43.760
this test or insurance is not going to pay for
650
00:35:43.760 --> 00:35:46.239
this medication because and it all has to do with
651
00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:48.679
statistics and it has absolutely nothing to do with me.
652
00:35:49.159 --> 00:35:51.719
And then the prescribing of a medicine is tailored to
653
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:54.400
that statistical bell curve. It's not tailored to me. It's
654
00:35:54.440 --> 00:35:56.000
an individual, that's right.
655
00:35:56.480 --> 00:35:58.760
I mean, I think we're going to say, we are saying,
656
00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:01.880
you know, an enormous rise in personalized, customized medicine, But
657
00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:05.800
again that comes down to you creating your own customized program,
658
00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:09.719
your own whatever it is, supplement medicine plan, your exercise plan,
659
00:36:09.880 --> 00:36:12.960
your dietary plan and nutritional plan, your sleep plan, everything
660
00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:16.280
that's going to make you operate at your highest potential.
661
00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:18.400
And that's really why my husband and I sought out
662
00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:21.639
these medicines to begin with. We went particularly suffering with
663
00:36:21.719 --> 00:36:24.599
any specific kind of mental illness, but we wanted to
664
00:36:24.639 --> 00:36:27.280
be at our best, so we tried lots of different things,
665
00:36:27.320 --> 00:36:29.840
and then we came across these medicines and it was
666
00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:32.119
certainly transformational and changed our lives.
667
00:36:32.440 --> 00:36:34.679
Yeah, So, just going a little further with that here
668
00:36:34.679 --> 00:36:37.000
in the US, at least many people have described the
669
00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:40.880
current sort of psychoic renaissance a bit like the Wild West,
670
00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:44.320
that there is the effort to you know, create regulated
671
00:36:44.360 --> 00:36:47.679
delivery of psychoic medicines who you know, the fields of
672
00:36:47.719 --> 00:36:51.079
medical and psychiatry and psychology and so forth. And then
673
00:36:51.119 --> 00:36:54.760
there's many therapists, even being qualified therapists who chose to
674
00:36:54.880 --> 00:36:58.840
not wait and operate in so called underground And then
675
00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:00.920
there's a lot of people in the underground world I
676
00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:03.880
operating against guides and things, many who are some maybe
677
00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:06.760
qualified and not so qualified. And then you know, so
678
00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:09.920
there's so many different things going on and people just
679
00:37:10.079 --> 00:37:13.840
individual experimentation with no guidance or no support. And then
680
00:37:13.880 --> 00:37:16.519
there's a race to kind of profit from a urgeoning
681
00:37:16.639 --> 00:37:20.840
new area. And I'm not against profit, I think, you know,
682
00:37:21.159 --> 00:37:25.960
regulated capitalism has shown more promise in widely distributing resources
683
00:37:25.960 --> 00:37:28.199
and any other system so far. But nonetheless there can
684
00:37:28.239 --> 00:37:31.400
be profiteering and just the whole commercialization. And there's issues
685
00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:35.280
around plant medicines and their indigenous routes and the indigenous
686
00:37:35.320 --> 00:37:38.800
people substorted them, and then the emerging farmer companies and
687
00:37:38.840 --> 00:37:40.920
the psychoic world in the US. So the whole thing
688
00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:42.960
is quite you know, it is kind of like a
689
00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:45.360
wild West, and it seems like to say.
690
00:37:45.639 --> 00:37:48.840
It's definitely not the wild Western Australia. You know, the
691
00:37:48.920 --> 00:37:51.840
rules are very strict. As I mentioned before, psychiatrists have
692
00:37:51.880 --> 00:37:55.719
to become authorized prescribers. Ethics committees involve these two therapists
693
00:37:55.719 --> 00:37:58.000
sitting with the clients. Now, the fact there's an underground
694
00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:01.360
movement illustrates the desperation for treatments that could heal people.
695
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:03.599
So you know, we have to go ahead and we
696
00:38:03.679 --> 00:38:06.239
have to make this as efficient and effective as possible.
697
00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:09.639
And that's why we focused on bringing these therapists into
698
00:38:10.159 --> 00:38:13.440
therapies into a regulated clinical medical domain. As far as
699
00:38:13.480 --> 00:38:16.119
profit is concerned, you know, we have a medical system
700
00:38:16.159 --> 00:38:18.960
where everyone's trying to profit from farmer companies, through the
701
00:38:19.000 --> 00:38:22.960
hospitals and individual clinicians. So we need to stop pretending
702
00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:25.800
that psychedelic assisted therapy is any different than any other
703
00:38:26.239 --> 00:38:30.000
field of medicine. And as far as the pitfalls are concerned,
704
00:38:30.039 --> 00:38:32.519
we just need to ensure that these therapies take place
705
00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:36.840
in the sensible ethical and regulatory environment where the patient
706
00:38:36.880 --> 00:38:39.000
is at the center of the system and clinicians are
707
00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:41.960
properly trained. That's really very important.
708
00:38:42.400 --> 00:38:44.639
So the reason I asked that and maybe it is
709
00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:47.239
a bit wilder here in the US and now, but
710
00:38:47.679 --> 00:38:50.280
you know, the importance is we discussed before of educating
711
00:38:50.280 --> 00:38:54.000
the consumer. So organizations like my Medicine Australia, not many
712
00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:58.079
other organizations, maps other organizations here. And one thing that
713
00:38:58.239 --> 00:39:01.000
in the research I've done getting involved in this over
714
00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:02.760
the years, I'm a baby boom where I came to
715
00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:06.480
the whole nineteen sixties saying, there's so many thoughtful nonprofits
716
00:39:06.519 --> 00:39:09.280
involved now in other organizations that people really seem to
717
00:39:09.320 --> 00:39:11.639
be making a strong effort to do this in a
718
00:39:11.679 --> 00:39:14.039
better way than we did back in the sixties to
719
00:39:14.119 --> 00:39:17.079
prevent the kind of backlash that occurred in the nineteen seventies.
720
00:39:17.480 --> 00:39:19.519
But it would say a lot of what's going on
721
00:39:19.679 --> 00:39:23.440
is advocacy and training are providers, and it would seem
722
00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:26.000
like it would be important for some of these organizations
723
00:39:26.039 --> 00:39:29.519
to really put some of the resources towards consumer education
724
00:39:30.039 --> 00:39:32.599
so that we can have a much more educated consumer.
725
00:39:32.840 --> 00:39:34.519
Well, I agree. I mean, I think that goes for
726
00:39:34.559 --> 00:39:37.440
all kinds of medicines and everything to do with health.
727
00:39:37.480 --> 00:39:40.400
That again goes back to teaching people how to be
728
00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:43.360
their own chief medical officer. And I think if we
729
00:39:43.400 --> 00:39:44.960
could do that, and we maybe we should have a
730
00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:47.519
consumer course. Maybe we'll talk about doing this together. Fleet
731
00:39:47.639 --> 00:39:50.159
now become your own chief medical officer.
732
00:39:50.480 --> 00:39:53.239
I love that idea. I definitely think we look we
733
00:39:53.280 --> 00:39:57.679
could do that, absolutely. Yeah. So, you know, as this
734
00:39:57.840 --> 00:40:01.079
is movement is unfolding, and and then the success you've
735
00:40:01.119 --> 00:40:05.280
had in getting both them de mansul soueignary scheduled in Australia.
736
00:40:05.440 --> 00:40:08.440
So where do you see the movement going over the
737
00:40:08.480 --> 00:40:11.480
next five to ten years and do you have any concerns,
738
00:40:11.519 --> 00:40:14.920
do you see any potential pit balls, either either on
739
00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:19.639
the individual patient side or politically or you know, what's
740
00:40:19.719 --> 00:40:22.039
your vision of the future. Look in your the ball.
741
00:40:21.920 --> 00:40:25.039
For us, Hopefully things will move, you know, from a
742
00:40:25.039 --> 00:40:27.239
trick all to more of a you know, more and
743
00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:31.480
more patients being treated, more therapists being trained, the cost
744
00:40:31.559 --> 00:40:34.920
becoming more more manageable through bringing in the health insurers,
745
00:40:34.960 --> 00:40:39.320
government subsidies, continuing to provide education programs not only to
746
00:40:39.440 --> 00:40:42.159
educated clinicians but also the public as you've talked about
747
00:40:42.199 --> 00:40:45.440
just now. And we're sure that the medicines will become
748
00:40:45.519 --> 00:40:48.880
registered in Australia in the future. Regarding concerns, you know,
749
00:40:49.159 --> 00:40:52.239
the pretty much all the researchers, clinicians and patients we
750
00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:55.159
deal with as strong supporters. There's a small group of
751
00:40:55.159 --> 00:40:58.679
people with vested interests who like to maintain the status
752
00:40:58.800 --> 00:41:01.480
quo or pole who've not done the hard work to
753
00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:05.000
understand the science and data and the controls in place.
754
00:41:05.039 --> 00:41:08.039
And I just encourage those people to loan up. And
755
00:41:08.159 --> 00:41:10.679
you know, I think the most important thing that we
756
00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:13.039
all need to do is to think about those suffering
757
00:41:13.079 --> 00:41:15.719
patients and put them at the center and think about
758
00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:18.519
what's going to make their lives more bearable and hopefully
759
00:41:18.519 --> 00:41:22.519
happy and healthy and long in the short to medium terms,
760
00:41:22.519 --> 00:41:24.440
so that they don't have to suffer their whole lives.
761
00:41:24.880 --> 00:41:26.800
And that's the entire reason why we set up this
762
00:41:26.920 --> 00:41:30.000
charity is because we saw the levels of suffering. We've
763
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:32.519
set up five charities before. We see the suffering in
764
00:41:32.559 --> 00:41:36.800
the community, and it just creates such enormous disadvantage and
765
00:41:36.880 --> 00:41:40.440
such heartbreak for not only the individuals but their families.
766
00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:44.000
And it's just unbearable to see that. And I just
767
00:41:44.079 --> 00:41:48.480
hope that together we can create a happier society and
768
00:41:48.519 --> 00:41:51.920
community and humanity that not so divided and that it
769
00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:55.920
is more compassionate and seize the one in everyone. We're
770
00:41:55.960 --> 00:41:56.440
all the one.
771
00:41:56.960 --> 00:41:59.239
Yeah, when near in the end of our time here
772
00:41:59.239 --> 00:42:01.000
and I know you you need to go. I'm just
773
00:42:01.039 --> 00:42:04.559
curious if you're aware if with what's going on in Australia,
774
00:42:04.639 --> 00:42:08.480
if there is communic cagoing communication between government and policy
775
00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:11.639
makers in Australia and other countries, between a scientific community
776
00:42:11.639 --> 00:42:14.519
in both countries, or advocacy organizations like your own and
777
00:42:14.559 --> 00:42:17.079
MAPS and OOS, is there a communication going so that
778
00:42:17.559 --> 00:42:20.320
we kind of can bread the benefit here. Oh?
779
00:42:20.360 --> 00:42:23.880
Absolutely. I mean, we have an enormous international network and
780
00:42:23.920 --> 00:42:26.719
we work with all the great organizations in the world,
781
00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:30.159
including MAPS and Drug Science and the European you know,
782
00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:32.599
the European groups and all over the place. I mean,
783
00:42:32.599 --> 00:42:35.440
we were approached recently by the Dutch government around the
784
00:42:35.599 --> 00:42:39.639
recent MDMA work that's been done there. And we're constantly
785
00:42:39.679 --> 00:42:42.599
in communication not only with these bodies but also with
786
00:42:42.639 --> 00:42:46.239
individual clinicians. And you can see our advisory panel which
787
00:42:46.280 --> 00:42:49.159
has over seventy five of the world's leaders in a
788
00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:52.880
number of different fields. So we believe it's an international dialogue.
789
00:42:52.920 --> 00:42:56.519
We hope that what we've done in Australia inspires everyone
790
00:42:56.559 --> 00:42:58.719
we know that it has and that we hope that
791
00:42:58.960 --> 00:43:00.719
you know everyone will can you need to take it
792
00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:04.760
up to the governments to follow Australia's laid and make
793
00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:08.599
these medicines available as soon as possible in clinical environments.
794
00:43:08.840 --> 00:43:12.719
Well, Anya Deyon, thank you so much, and congratulations on
795
00:43:12.760 --> 00:43:15.480
the success of your efforts in Australia and wishing you
796
00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:16.039
all the best.
797
00:43:16.400 --> 00:43:18.480
Thank you for having us and supporting.
798
00:43:18.159 --> 00:43:22.119
Us absolutely wonderful. Take good care Taking radical responsibility for
799
00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:25.280
our lives means taking action, and today you can start
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801
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00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:56.239
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