The Sweaty 10-Minute Conversation Every Leader Needs to Master

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I'm to the point where I no longer fear the sweaty ten minute conversation.
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Really?
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Yeah.
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No, I don't want to say I thrive on them.
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Or okay, yes, but I don't.
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I'm like, okay, we just got to talk about this.
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And, uh, it is what it is.
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Yeah.
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Um, so they're not as sweaty for me anymore.
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That's good.
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But I still like calling them sweaty ten minute conversation because, yeah, I may not be the one sweating.
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No. Stay tuned.
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She's the CEO.
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He's the marketing and operations guy.
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If it's broken, you need the business fix.
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How is now that we're not summer quite yet?
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Another couple of days from the days where summer adjacent.
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We're summer adjacent.
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We're in the part of.
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We're in the part of Ohio Spring that feels like summer ish.
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And then there's a couple of those punches in the face that are like, no, no, no, no, no, you still need a sweater.
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Yes.
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Right.
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Like it's treating you well so far.
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It is, it is.
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We're enjoying our it's senior summer, so no one's getting ready to go to college.
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No one's climbed the walls yet.
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Nope.
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Not at all.
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We're preparing to go out of town for vacation.
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It's gonna be fun.
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So yeah.
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I'm excited.
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Was was was preparing for that.
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A ten minute sweaty conversation.
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Oh, that was more than a ten minute conversation because we're flying across an ocean for the first time ever as a family.
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So it's yeah, this, this has been like, did you specifically get seats in different areas of the airplane?
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Yes.
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We are not sitting with our children.
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In part because we now have an adult child and she can manage the junior high kid.
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So yes.
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Nice.
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Yes.
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Nice.
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Nice was that was telling her that the an awkward conversation.
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No, she was totally fine with it because I said, look, if you want to, we're going to go to Europe, but we're going to do it in a way where like, we don't have to pay for the airfare.
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We paid it with points.
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And so I'm like, your dad and I are going to sit up here and you're going to sit back here with Caleb.
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And she was like, you know what?
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That's okay, because you're taking me to Europe.
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Okay, I'm good with that.
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Yeah, I'm good with that.
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So why do we call the ten minute sweaty conversation or the sweaty ten minute conversation sweaty?
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Well, I think well, Gay Hendricks, who wrote the book The Big Leap, says behind every communication problem is a sweaty ten minute conversation that you don't want to have.
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Yeah.
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So that's it.
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I mean, it really is.
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And it's the one.
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And it's funny because before I was willing to have these conversations, yeah, I would persevere.
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Like just I would sit there and be like, okay, what am I going to say?
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How am I going to say this?
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And all I can think of is every time we say the sweaty ten minute conversation is I go to the episode of The Office.
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Mhm.
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It's one of the first couple of episodes where Michael has to fire someone.
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Yeah.
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And him and Jim roleplay because that's and it's funny, I love that scene so much.
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It's because that is the scene like every one of us has in our head.
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Yeah.
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Where?
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Michael.
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Just absolute disaster.
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Right.
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Michael just loses his mind.
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Yes.
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And that's what we all go to.
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Yeah.
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And we delay it for ten months.
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Ten days, ten years.
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It's like it's real.
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It's a ten minute conversation.
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But we delay for a really long time to get to it.
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So like, I want to put a definition to this that may soften that a little bit for sure.
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Let's define this as a high impact, low duration meeting designed to correct a specific behavior or boundary before it becomes a systemic failure.
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Oh, I like that.
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Um, I to me, the part that, I mean, I, as soon as we, I started working on this, I'm like, yes, let's make this sound as HR as possible.
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Um, it took me a while and it took me some time with AI to do this because, you know, that did not come out of my mouth.
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No, I know it didn't.
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That's a really good definition.
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But yeah, I mean, to me, it really does fit because it's it's to move from emotional to operational.
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Yeah.
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And that's really what you were trying to do with any conversation like this.
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So why is and this is something that like, this is why I love operations because it separates behavior from identity in many ways.
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Yeah.
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Um, why is separating identity from behavior like the most important psychological rule of this conversation?
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Yeah.
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So common mistake that most leaders make at least once in their lifetime.
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When leaders accidentally make the person feel like they are the problem instead of the behavior being the problem.
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Oh yeah.
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So that's why you've got to be able to separate identity from behavior.
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There is a huge difference between you miss the deadline and you're unreliable.
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Oh can you feel the difference?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So I mean, one address is something very specific that can change.
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And the other attacks who you are.
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So.
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Oh. That hurts.
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Yeah it does.
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That's why I feel it.
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I feel attacked.
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Do you feel attacked?
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No, it's not good.
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But it's really important because it really does.
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The second that someone feels personally attacked, their brain stops hearing you.
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Because you have you've absolutely went to assault on their character and assault on who they are.
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And you're like, I don't understand why people get defensive around me.
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Well, did you say you missed a deadline or did you say you're unreliable?
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Well, I said they're unreliable.
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I'm like, no freaking way.
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Right?
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There's of course they're mad at you.
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They missed a deadline.
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Yes.
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And you have now associated that with their entire personal entire identity.
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So they're no longer thinking about any issue that you could have said to them.
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They're thinking about protecting themselves.
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And that's why people get defensive so fast.
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I don't understand why people get defensive.
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Did you did you talk about the problem or did you say that they were the problem?
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Oh, and what's really difficult about that is some people have a difficult time making that differentiation.
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they do, and especially on the fly.
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Yes, absolutely.
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And this is why when we talk about how to give feedback, we teach leaders to stay really grounded in facts and behaviors.
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And so this is really important in that conversation.
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You have to know what happened, what was the impact and what needs to change.
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Those three things.
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You're not picking assumptions, labels or emotional exaggeration.
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All right.
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I mean, I had to do this myself.
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I know when you are frustrated, it is easy to move from this behavior isn't working to this person just doesn't care.
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Yeah, right.
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But those are not the same thing.
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This isn't working to this person.
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Those are not the same things, right?
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So when we talk about resilient operating system, we talk about emotional regulation.
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And so a lot of being able to have these conversations is first regulating the emotions that you have in yourself.
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And when you if I walk into a conversation that's emotionally loaded, I need the other person to feel my emotional regulation.
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I don't need them to feel like I am high anxiety.
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I had to have this conversation with you.
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It's gonna be terrible.
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All right.
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So before I even start the conversation, I gotta ask myself these three things.
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Sweating before the person walks in, there's an indication that you are not ready.
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Okay.
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You are not ready.
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If you need to write things down, take some notes, get prepped, that's fine.
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But if you are like, it's one thing like, okay, this is going to be difficult conversation.
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My adrenaline's up a little bit, but if you were like hiding under your desk before this person comes in, you're not ready to have a conversation.
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Right.
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So before I even start the conversation, these are three things that I'm asking myself.
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AM I calm enough to be clear?
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Mhm.
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If this is an emotionally charged situation, I am still, like, ready to scream at someone.
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I'm not calm enough to have this conversation.
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Not the right time.
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It can wait at least five minutes, right?
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AM I trying to solve the problem?
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Or am I trying to release frustration because, ooh, that's a big one.
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I see it so many times.
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Yes.
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Because if this is about me releasing my frustration on you, that is not going to be helpful.
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No, it's about solving a problem.
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If I'm not going to call you in just to yell at you, that's that's not going to work.
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So. And then the last one is, am I trying to help this person improve?
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Or am I just trying to make myself feel better?
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Yeah.
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So asking, am I calm enough to be clear?
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AM I trying to solve the problem or release frustration?
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And am I trying to help this person improve or just make myself feel better?
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I asked those three questions of myself because those are also very different conversations.
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Yeah, right.
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Oh, I mean, just just the approach in those conversations is hugely different.
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Yeah.
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Wow.
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Yeah.
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I love those love those.
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Um, yeah.
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No, I got to ask an HR question on this because a lot of this is HR stuff.
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I mean, it's CEO stuff because as a CEO, you have to be able to have these conversations in your sleep.
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If you can't do it's not, it's it's not probably your calling yet.
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You need to get some professional development around how to have a conversation.
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You almost have professional help.
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You do.
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You do development and help both legally.
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HR piece.
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I mean, kind of one and the same there.
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Yeah.
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How does being nice or, you know, sometimes vague actually create more of a liability because we've all seen that.
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Yeah.
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The mistake of the nice leader.
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They think that avoiding the conversation is kindness.
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I'm going to spare their feelings.
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I don't want I don't want them to cry in my office.
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I don't want to deal with a crier or.
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Or worse yet, I don't want someone yelling at me.
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So I'm just going to be really nice.
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I'm just gonna be really nice, and I'm gonna hope that everything goes well and.
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And I'm gonna be nice to them.
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And that niceness is.
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It's not nice.
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It's avoidance.
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No one's accused me of that.
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No, I've been accused of being too nice.
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So not not for a while, but it has happened in the past.
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And I will say, and that's avoidance.
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Yeah.
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You're avoiding the difficult conversation.
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You're avoiding the fact that somebody may cry.
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You're avoiding the fact that someone may get defensive.
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Avoidance creates confusion.
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And if if the employee doesn't know where they stand, what was actually the issue, what they need to improve on, and then what those next steps are going to be when you get to the point that you are explosive, or you actually tell them ten weeks from the time that you should have told them, they feel blindsided.
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Yeah.
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And that's where you get resentment.
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That's where the legal problems start.
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That's where trust breaks for the rest of the individuals in your organization.
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I mean, I've seen leaders do this for months.
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They are they they hint about it.
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My dad was really good at telling someone they did a terrible job and them saying thank you for it.
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But no one, when they said thank you, they didn't realize that they needed to improve.
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Right?
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That was a problem.
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I know exactly, yeah, I know the type.
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Yeah.
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So because he would hint at it instead of telling them, I need you to do the thing.
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There was always confusion.
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All right.
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And then there's, there's the increase of frustration from anyone else on the team.
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Or you're talking about this issue to everyone else except the employee that needs to hear it.
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Uh, one of my favorites is when people will will tell the team about something.
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Hey guys, we all need to do a better job of this when it's really it's Betty and, and I've done that.
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I've sent the email to everyone, hey, we need to work on like making sure that our side conversations are appropriate.
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And then I've got someone who is so upset because I lumped them in with everybody else and I'm like, okay, I should have just had a direct conversation with this other person, had the sweaty ten minute conversation instead of the yeah, instead of the, the one email.
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Yeah.
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I mean, and the other thing around that.
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So you offend the other people because you like group everyone into the same bucket.
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Or what happens is you explode because you've got all of this built up resentment and that employee is absolutely shocked because no one was direct with them.
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Oh, right.
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Yeah, right.
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It builds and builds and builds and builds and builds and.
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Yeah.
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Nope.
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Yeah.
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And I think we talk about a lot of paperwork.
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We talk about documentation.
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And I think this is why documentation matters, not because HR loves paperwork, but because I mean, we do, but not because we love paperwork that we do this documentation.
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We, we absolutely are.
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Um, because documentation creates transparency, fairness and consistency.
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Yep.
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And so when you've documented these things and the employee understands what you have talked about, what needs to change and what's going to happen moving forward, you give them that timeline.
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It doesn't feel punitive anymore.
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It feels respectful.
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Look, we appreciate the work that you do here.
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We need to get you to this standard or this behavior is not going to doesn't align with our core values.
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This is what we need from you moving forward.
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You have to be clear in your messaging.
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And if you can do that, I think it enables you to be respectful in your communication and your employees can get better.
00:13:30.572 --> 00:13:35.706
Plus, it avoids the Parkinson's law of it's going to take as long as you give it.
00:13:35.706 --> 00:13:36.273
Exactly.
00:13:36.273 --> 00:13:40.673
If you say, I need this behavior to improve by two weeks from now.
00:13:40.673 --> 00:13:41.340
Yes.
00:13:41.340 --> 00:13:43.139
By a week from Friday, then.
00:13:43.139 --> 00:13:43.440
Great.
00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:45.173
You've got something to it.
00:13:45.173 --> 00:13:47.873
One of my favorites about the sweaty ten minute conversation.
00:13:47.873 --> 00:13:48.306
Yep.
00:13:48.306 --> 00:13:55.539
Well, one of my least favorites, I guess I would say is when you get the we will call call this the defensive flare up.
00:13:55.539 --> 00:14:03.706
And yes, when I'm talking about the flare up, I feel like this is referring to something that would use a tucks medicated pad because that's what it feels like from these people.
00:14:03.706 --> 00:14:08.340
Uh, you get the people that they get emotional about it.
00:14:08.340 --> 00:14:13.740
But but but I mean, every sentence starts with but or four buts.
00:14:13.740 --> 00:14:15.605
Um, hence the flare up.
00:14:15.605 --> 00:14:16.306
Mhm.
00:14:18.072 --> 00:14:19.306
Yep.
00:14:19.306 --> 00:14:25.806
How do you bring that, that conversation back to let's call this the objective zone.
00:14:25.806 --> 00:14:26.440
Yes.
00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:30.706
Instead of that, that defensive like emotionally charged piece.
00:14:30.706 --> 00:14:30.940
Yeah.
00:14:30.940 --> 00:14:32.039
So employee gets upset.
00:14:32.039 --> 00:14:33.005
So they're emotional.
00:14:33.005 --> 00:14:33.840
They're defensive.
00:14:33.840 --> 00:15:36.660
Or one that sneaks up on leaders is they are absolutely quiet and they say nothing.
00:15:36.660 --> 00:15:39.326
So you feel you have to you have to fill in the silence.
00:15:39.326 --> 00:15:40.759
I was about to say fill in the silence.
00:15:40.759 --> 00:15:41.460
It's deadly.
00:15:41.460 --> 00:15:42.460
Don't do that.
00:15:42.460 --> 00:15:47.860
So immediately you deal with those types of things emotional, defensive or quiet.
00:15:47.860 --> 00:15:50.626
The leader wants to backpedal because now they're feeling uncomfortable.
00:15:50.626 --> 00:15:51.293
You know what?
00:15:51.293 --> 00:15:54.426
Just sit in the fact that it's going to be uncomfortable.
00:15:54.426 --> 00:16:01.493
Acknowledge the fact that this is probably going to stink to some level, but you can do it because discomfort doesn't mean the conversation was wrong.
00:16:01.493 --> 00:16:06.225
And I think a lot of times leaders think like, because this person got uncomfortable, I did it wrong.
00:16:06.225 --> 00:16:08.026
No. Absolutely not.
00:16:08.026 --> 00:16:10.725
It means that the conversation mattered.
00:16:10.725 --> 00:16:12.060
Oh, yeah.
00:16:12.060 --> 00:16:16.426
So another needle point, like once again, we're like, we need to take some of these criticisms.
00:16:16.426 --> 00:16:16.759
Yes.
00:16:16.759 --> 00:16:19.692
And we need to have a needle point catalog of these.
00:16:21.192 --> 00:16:21.593
Yes.
00:16:21.593 --> 00:16:24.326
Discomfort doesn't mean the conversation was wrong.
00:16:24.326 --> 00:16:26.793
It usually means the conversation mattered.
00:16:26.793 --> 00:16:27.725
Yeah, yeah.
00:16:27.725 --> 00:16:33.393
So what really helps in these types of situations is to keep it grounded.
00:16:33.393 --> 00:16:38.725
So you're going to slow down the conversation instead of escalating it, right?
00:16:38.725 --> 00:16:43.192
If someone gets defensive, we do not match their emotion.
00:16:43.192 --> 00:16:44.326
We do not.
00:16:44.326 --> 00:16:45.560
We do not say, hold my beer.
00:16:45.560 --> 00:16:46.493
I'm going to raise it.
00:16:46.493 --> 00:16:47.225
No we don't.
00:16:47.225 --> 00:16:49.160
We. We stay calm.
00:16:49.160 --> 00:16:54.460
Bring the conversation back to the behavior, the impact, the expectation to move forward.
00:16:54.460 --> 00:16:58.393
There's a concept in dialectical behavioral therapy called broken record.
00:16:58.393 --> 00:17:01.192
It's where you continue to say the same thing over and over.
00:17:01.192 --> 00:17:08.026
And I know that there are times that it can cause escalation, but saying it over and over just reinforces what you need to what needs to happen.
00:17:08.026 --> 00:17:13.460
I mean, there are times where I will literally say to someone, I am not attacking you as a person.
00:17:13.460 --> 00:17:17.960
I am talking about a specific issue that we need to solve together.
00:17:17.960 --> 00:17:19.192
I hear you.
00:17:19.192 --> 00:17:20.759
I see your emotion.
00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:22.593
I'm not attacking you as a person.
00:17:22.593 --> 00:17:26.160
We are talking about an issue that we need to solve together.
00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:26.692
Yep.
00:17:26.692 --> 00:17:27.826
And just keep saying it.
00:17:27.826 --> 00:17:29.160
I've said something similar.
00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:29.559
Yes.
00:17:29.559 --> 00:17:33.225
I mean, another one is and I've said, I said this to my kids.
00:17:33.225 --> 00:17:35.359
I have said this to team members.
00:17:35.359 --> 00:17:37.792
This is not an assault on your character.
00:17:37.792 --> 00:17:40.925
This is about an issue that needs solved.
00:17:40.925 --> 00:17:42.992
I am not attacking your character.
00:17:42.992 --> 00:17:45.326
We are talking about an issue that we need to resolve.
00:17:45.326 --> 00:17:48.093
And I mean, again, resilient operating system.
00:17:48.093 --> 00:17:52.759
We talk about building those communication tools that are direct, fair, calm and curious.
00:17:52.759 --> 00:17:59.526
So we are just, you know, saying the hard thing clearly without being cruel and without abandoning the relationship.
00:17:59.526 --> 00:17:59.893
Love it.
00:17:59.893 --> 00:18:00.192
Right.
00:18:00.192 --> 00:18:05.792
Because there is an important distinction between can I care and can I hold them accountable?
00:18:05.792 --> 00:18:11.925
Because I think a lot of times leaders are like, I don't know if it's like, is it really caring if I show accountability or hold them accountable?
00:18:11.925 --> 00:18:18.292
Yes, it absolutely is, because you can care deeply about someone and still hold a boundary.
00:18:18.292 --> 00:18:21.059
The strongest leaders can do both things.
00:18:21.059 --> 00:18:25.326
It's funny, I heard someone talk the other day about raising kids.
00:18:25.326 --> 00:18:25.925
Yeah.
00:18:25.925 --> 00:18:31.160
And they said if you hold them accountable now, you will have a much easier time parenting later.
00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:32.526
You absolutely will.
00:18:32.526 --> 00:18:33.026
Yes.
00:18:33.026 --> 00:18:41.059
That's it's a problem that many people don't look at because they, they're like, are there for no, no, no. That is the most important time.
00:18:41.059 --> 00:18:41.859
Hold them accountable.
00:18:41.859 --> 00:18:42.160
Yes.
00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:43.026
Toddlers and preschool.
00:18:43.026 --> 00:18:48.625
And people are like, no, no, no, no, no, we need to I gonna get hate mail, but I don't believe in gentle parenting.
00:18:48.625 --> 00:18:49.360
No. Me neither.
00:18:49.360 --> 00:18:50.259
No. Me neither.
00:18:50.259 --> 00:18:52.160
You talk about criers for a minute.
00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:52.460
Yeah.
00:18:52.460 --> 00:18:54.526
Like how to handle the criers.
00:18:54.526 --> 00:18:59.360
I. Yes, because I'm very interested on your take on how you deal with this.
00:18:59.360 --> 00:19:00.625
I mean, it is.
00:19:00.625 --> 00:19:01.160
Yeah.
00:19:01.160 --> 00:19:04.526
I I'm sure you already know how I deal with it.
00:19:04.526 --> 00:19:07.093
Yes, I do.
00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:10.960
And it depends on the situation for me and how.
00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:16.326
I mean, if someone cries, it's okay because I know people are like, what happens if they cry?
00:19:16.326 --> 00:19:20.625
You know, that's it's a human response and that is perfectly fine.
00:19:20.625 --> 00:19:23.160
We are not going to panic when someone cries.
00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:25.726
We are not going to suddenly abandon the conversation.
00:19:25.726 --> 00:19:27.860
You know, go go go go go go go.
00:19:27.860 --> 00:19:28.526
You know what?
00:19:28.526 --> 00:19:31.259
They start to cry and you're like, I meant somewhere else.
00:19:31.259 --> 00:19:33.360
You have to stay grounded.
00:19:33.360 --> 00:19:33.660
Yes.
00:19:33.660 --> 00:19:36.393
Because tears don't automatically mean that harm was done.
00:19:36.393 --> 00:19:38.226
It may mean a couple of different things.
00:19:38.226 --> 00:19:39.960
It can mean that they care.
00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:45.293
It could mean that they're embarrassed, that they're overwhelmed or that they finally feel seen.
00:19:45.293 --> 00:19:47.960
So allow that to happen.
00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:50.660
Your job is not to rescue them from discomfort.
00:19:50.660 --> 00:19:53.460
Your job is to help them move through it productively.
00:19:53.460 --> 00:19:56.692
So there have been times where I have just I've slid over Kleenex.
00:19:56.692 --> 00:19:59.793
There have been times where I've just sat and waited.
00:19:59.793 --> 00:20:02.492
I, yeah, I can do either or.
00:20:02.492 --> 00:20:03.793
I've done both.
00:20:03.793 --> 00:20:13.192
There's been times where if it's absolutely emotional, I will stay in the room, but I will get up and I will walk to a different spot to give them a moment, and then I will come back.
00:20:13.192 --> 00:20:15.860
I don't usually look at people and say, are you done?
00:20:17.393 --> 00:20:18.326
I don't go that far.
00:20:18.326 --> 00:20:20.160
Don't go that far.
00:20:20.160 --> 00:20:20.526
Yeah.
00:20:20.526 --> 00:20:23.593
I just say, you know what, take a moment and just take a moment.
00:20:23.593 --> 00:20:25.326
I'll be here when you're ready.
00:20:25.326 --> 00:20:25.992
Yep.
00:20:25.992 --> 00:20:31.326
And that's okay, because you may be dealing with someone who wants to emotionally explode and have it be manipulation.
00:20:31.326 --> 00:20:35.125
Or you could be dealing with someone who's just going through a lot and you had no idea they couldn't.
00:20:35.125 --> 00:20:35.393
Okay.
00:20:35.393 --> 00:20:38.759
And I mean, look, having something pointed out like that can hurt.
00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:39.793
It can.
00:20:39.793 --> 00:20:40.593
It absolutely can.
00:20:40.593 --> 00:20:47.192
If they thought they were doing a really great job because you never gave them true feedback, and this is the first time you're giving them feedback.
00:20:47.192 --> 00:20:47.726
It sucks.
00:20:47.726 --> 00:20:48.759
It does.
00:20:48.759 --> 00:20:51.059
But it could be that first step forward too.
00:20:51.059 --> 00:20:51.593
Yes.
00:20:51.593 --> 00:20:53.326
Or it could be acknowledgement where you're going.
00:20:53.326 --> 00:20:55.826
Look, I think you're struggling here.
00:20:55.826 --> 00:20:56.759
Let's talk about it.
00:20:56.759 --> 00:21:02.460
And all of a sudden they realize, oh my gosh, you see that I'm struggling and I need to release some emotion before I can solve the problem.
00:21:02.460 --> 00:21:16.425
And I think part of it too, even whether you're dealing with a crier, you're dealing with somebody who can be, I mean, explosive or they're just not everybody's going to have emotions, which is totally okay Because I think we project the worst possible scenario.
00:21:17.559 --> 00:21:18.660
Yeah.
00:21:18.660 --> 00:21:19.692
Thank you.
00:21:19.692 --> 00:21:25.759
So as in like no emotions, we project those worst, those, those worst possible scenarios.
00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:27.925
But let's go back to the three CS of leadership.
00:21:27.925 --> 00:21:29.726
So we've got clarity, consistency and care.
00:21:29.726 --> 00:21:33.492
And this is, you know, it's how you have that sweaty ten minute conversation.
00:21:33.492 --> 00:21:37.893
And I think leaders avoid these conversations because they think the goal is to avoid tension.
00:21:37.893 --> 00:21:38.893
And it's not.
00:21:38.893 --> 00:21:51.360
The goal is to create clarity before confusion turns into resentment, because that sweaty ten minute conversation today is a whole lot healthier than ten months of frustration, gossip, and operational damage later.
00:21:51.360 --> 00:21:51.960
Oh yeah.
00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:54.059
Just do it.
00:21:54.059 --> 00:21:55.492
Yeah, just do it.
00:21:56.660 --> 00:22:00.226
Yeah, I am there's there's no other there's no other way to say that there isn't.
00:22:00.226 --> 00:22:02.125
You have to get it done earlier.
00:22:02.125 --> 00:22:11.625
I believe it was the last episode where I said the operational debt is like, you're going to pay, you're going to pay the you're going to hear the music now, or you're going to hear the music later.
00:22:11.625 --> 00:22:13.826
And when you hear it later, it's much, much louder.
00:22:13.826 --> 00:22:14.226
Yes.
00:22:14.226 --> 00:22:18.526
So, Josh, you always say like, let's just rip off the Band-Aid, maybe a bit callously.
00:22:18.526 --> 00:22:21.793
But yes, I mean, walk us through the actual operational mechanics.
00:22:21.793 --> 00:22:22.492
How do we start it?
00:22:22.492 --> 00:22:23.726
What data do we bring?
00:22:23.726 --> 00:22:26.192
How do we end in exactly ten minutes?
00:22:26.192 --> 00:22:35.726
Because my sweaty ten minute conversations, sometimes they're three and sometimes they're thirty, thirty, sometimes they're forty five and end up being a podcast.
00:22:35.726 --> 00:22:40.226
Like I, to me, there's, there's a couple of things like first off, preparation.
00:22:40.226 --> 00:22:42.860
This is like any speaking engagement or anything else.
00:22:42.860 --> 00:22:47.393
Now, depending on your comfort level with this, that depends on your level of preparation.
00:22:47.393 --> 00:22:55.492
For me, these are, I don't want to say these are easy conversations for me, but like, I don't need to go in with the a big idea with it.
00:22:55.492 --> 00:22:57.425
You've done a lot of them, right?
00:22:57.425 --> 00:23:05.293
It's don't script the whole meeting, but because scripting often leads to like robotic responses, that's gonna, they're gonna fail the moment they're going to fail.
00:23:05.293 --> 00:23:11.160
Like what happens when the person you're expecting them to cry and they just sit there staring at you, right?
00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:12.860
Right.
00:23:12.860 --> 00:23:14.559
Um, you can't like.
00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:15.925
And this is the thing.
00:23:15.925 --> 00:23:18.326
You cannot control other people.
00:23:18.326 --> 00:23:21.460
No, you can only control how you present the information to them.
00:23:21.460 --> 00:23:21.793
Yes.
00:23:21.793 --> 00:23:22.625
That's it.
00:23:22.625 --> 00:23:30.726
So to me, I always say go in with like, if you're not comfortable in this, go in with the first thing that you're gonna say.
00:23:30.726 --> 00:23:33.992
But I still love the Mike Tyson principle on this.
00:23:33.992 --> 00:23:37.125
Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.
00:23:37.125 --> 00:23:41.593
And let me tell you, within the first forty five to 50s, you are going to get punched in the face.
00:23:41.593 --> 00:23:42.192
Hopefully.
00:23:42.192 --> 00:23:42.826
Hopefully not.
00:23:42.826 --> 00:23:43.425
Literally.
00:23:43.425 --> 00:23:44.559
No, I would hope not.
00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:48.925
But the plan is going to go out the window because you and I have both talked about this.
00:23:48.925 --> 00:23:52.759
I have brought people into my office where I'm like, oh, this is going to get ugly.
00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:53.793
They're a crier.
00:23:53.793 --> 00:23:54.992
This is going to be hysterics.
00:23:54.992 --> 00:24:00.360
They're going to jump out my window and they sit there looking at you like, oh, okay.
00:24:00.360 --> 00:24:02.160
And you're like, oh.
00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:07.226
And then we also get that the stoic person that comes in and loses their ever loving mind.
00:24:07.226 --> 00:24:07.960
Yes.
00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:10.660
And you have no idea how they're going to do that.
00:24:10.660 --> 00:24:11.925
That didn't go as planned.
00:24:13.460 --> 00:24:14.692
Correct.
00:24:14.692 --> 00:24:15.726
That was unexpected.
00:24:15.726 --> 00:24:18.125
Just assume the poop tornado.
00:24:18.125 --> 00:24:19.492
Uh. That's fair.
00:24:19.492 --> 00:24:20.593
I haven't brought the umbrella up.
00:24:20.593 --> 00:24:22.093
You prepare for the poop tornado.
00:24:22.093 --> 00:24:22.793
That's okay.
00:24:22.793 --> 00:24:23.393
Right.
00:24:23.393 --> 00:24:25.393
And the way you prepare for the poop tornado.
00:24:25.393 --> 00:24:26.793
Prepare for the poop tornado.
00:24:26.793 --> 00:24:28.925
God, that is a great way.
00:24:28.925 --> 00:24:30.226
It's a tongue twister.
00:24:30.226 --> 00:24:34.160
Instead of a rigid plan, have your data have your information handy.
00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:38.793
If you're having a difficult conversation, you have information and documentation to back it up.
00:24:38.793 --> 00:24:39.226
Yes.
00:24:39.226 --> 00:24:48.526
Have that stuff in front of you to refer to, because there's nothing worse than saying, well, you kind of don't do the the thing sort of.
00:24:48.526 --> 00:24:52.093
No, no, no. We've got five times here where you didn't do the thing.
00:24:52.093 --> 00:24:52.992
Yes.
00:24:52.992 --> 00:24:53.925
It's documented.
00:24:53.925 --> 00:24:55.492
It's there it is.
00:24:55.492 --> 00:24:57.925
If you are anchored in data.
00:24:57.925 --> 00:24:58.793
Yes.
00:24:58.793 --> 00:25:02.726
And you've got that data, it doesn't matter if it's a right hook.
00:25:02.726 --> 00:25:04.360
It doesn't matter if it's an uppercut.
00:25:04.360 --> 00:25:08.893
It doesn't matter if they assume the fetal position in the far end of the boxing ring.
00:25:08.893 --> 00:25:09.425
Yes.
00:25:09.425 --> 00:25:10.826
You are ready.
00:25:10.826 --> 00:25:11.526
You are.
00:25:11.526 --> 00:25:13.259
So I will say one thing.
00:25:13.259 --> 00:25:18.960
Yes, about some of those people that will say I don't have enough documentation.
00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:20.293
There is a limit.
00:25:20.293 --> 00:25:21.692
It's not a thesis.
00:25:21.692 --> 00:25:26.160
If you have a pattern, because they're like, I need thirty examples.
00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:27.326
No, three is good.
00:25:27.326 --> 00:25:29.726
No, I we have a pattern.
00:25:29.726 --> 00:25:32.726
I mean, we talk about, you know, once is not a pattern.
00:25:32.726 --> 00:25:33.093
Correct.
00:25:33.093 --> 00:25:37.460
Now, if there's an issue that you have to address because it was significant against your core values, it doesn't matter.
00:25:37.460 --> 00:25:38.226
You've got to address it.
00:25:38.226 --> 00:25:39.125
You've got to address it now.
00:25:39.125 --> 00:25:45.059
But when people are like, you know what, I don't know that I have enough information about this person being chronically late.
00:25:45.059 --> 00:25:47.160
How many times have they been chronically late?
00:25:47.160 --> 00:25:50.526
I don't really know, but they've only been on time three times in the last three years.
00:25:50.526 --> 00:25:53.160
You have way more than enough data.
00:25:53.160 --> 00:25:56.559
Stop procrastinating and stop avoiding your sweaty ten minute conversation.
00:25:56.559 --> 00:25:58.925
Don't use the data as a as a reason to not do it.
00:25:58.925 --> 00:25:59.660
Yes.
00:25:59.660 --> 00:26:00.059
Yeah.
00:26:00.059 --> 00:26:05.559
I've seen a lot of that to me to, to, to, to look at your first fifteen seconds.
00:26:05.559 --> 00:26:09.925
The first words that come out of your mouth, if you're not good with this, rehearse that.
00:26:09.925 --> 00:26:15.259
Yes, like have that there those first words because those are gonna that is what's going to set the tone.
00:26:15.259 --> 00:26:15.759
Mhm.
00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:17.559
Um, one hundred percent.
00:26:17.559 --> 00:26:21.559
The thing that I like the no fluff opening.
00:26:21.559 --> 00:26:21.826
Yeah.
00:26:21.826 --> 00:26:25.259
This is your first and we're going to lay this out in terms of time.
00:26:25.259 --> 00:26:29.526
Zero to two minutes is the no fluff opening directness is kindness.
00:26:29.526 --> 00:26:32.960
Directness only works because the relationship you've built with people.
00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:33.360
Yeah.
00:26:33.360 --> 00:26:37.226
If you have not been direct with them all along, this is going to be tougher.
00:26:37.226 --> 00:26:37.460
Yeah.
00:26:37.460 --> 00:26:40.625
If you've been direct with them from day one, you're in good shape.
00:26:40.625 --> 00:26:49.326
Um, if they know that you care about their success, the sting of any correction is so much easier to take.
00:26:49.326 --> 00:26:50.026
Absolutely.
00:26:50.026 --> 00:26:52.160
Because they realize you're not saying this.
00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:53.593
It's tough in so many cases.
00:26:53.593 --> 00:26:57.992
I have had bosses bring me in and I thought, this is malicious.
00:26:57.992 --> 00:26:58.593
Mhm.
00:26:58.593 --> 00:27:02.593
Whereas if they're like, hey, I really need you to do this.
00:27:02.593 --> 00:27:05.793
It's a completely different, Completely different conversation.
00:27:05.793 --> 00:27:06.593
Yeah.
00:27:06.593 --> 00:27:11.759
Um, the other, the mistake that happens so often is don't start with small talk.
00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:13.226
Uh, no weather?
00:27:13.226 --> 00:27:15.460
No. How was your weekend?
00:27:15.460 --> 00:27:17.125
No. Start right away.
00:27:17.125 --> 00:27:17.660
Right.
00:27:17.660 --> 00:27:18.593
Appreciate you being here.
00:27:18.593 --> 00:27:22.326
This is going to probably be an uncomfortable conversation for both of us, but we're going to work through it.
00:27:22.326 --> 00:27:23.026
Here we go.
00:27:23.026 --> 00:27:23.925
Correct.
00:27:23.925 --> 00:27:28.726
Um, and a great way, something that someone showed to me years ago.
00:27:28.726 --> 00:27:31.160
It's not how I prefer to start things.
00:27:31.160 --> 00:27:34.326
I'm having this meeting because I want you to be successful.
00:27:36.093 --> 00:27:37.860
If you start out that way.
00:27:37.860 --> 00:27:38.226
Yeah.
00:27:38.226 --> 00:27:40.125
Once again, you have set that tone.
00:27:40.125 --> 00:27:43.393
Now the next two to five minutes is got to be data.
00:27:43.393 --> 00:27:44.125
Mhm.
00:27:44.125 --> 00:27:47.125
If you have not done research, shut up.
00:27:47.125 --> 00:27:48.692
And you shouldn't be in this meeting anyways.
00:27:48.692 --> 00:27:55.759
No. Um, the what I always like to to say with this is you need to have the numbers behind it.
00:27:55.759 --> 00:28:04.226
And once again, if there's a pattern of things, if there's issues, you're not going to call people out, but you need four or five sources to tell you something.
00:28:04.226 --> 00:28:05.960
You can't get it from one source.
00:28:05.960 --> 00:28:13.125
No. Also, state the fact and shut up.
00:28:13.125 --> 00:28:14.826
Don't overexplain.
00:28:14.826 --> 00:28:20.660
No, because what's going to happen is you're going to be like, look, your performance hasn't been up to par and we need to fix this.
00:28:20.660 --> 00:28:21.360
Mhm.
00:28:23.125 --> 00:28:24.893
Mhm.
00:28:24.893 --> 00:28:26.492
Like that's it.
00:28:26.492 --> 00:28:26.826
Okay.
00:28:26.826 --> 00:28:31.259
That that even that was a little bit uncomfortable there because we're not used to silence.
00:28:31.259 --> 00:28:35.492
But once again, it's that thing like, hey, we need to fix this.
00:28:37.492 --> 00:28:39.093
There's no need to, there's.
00:28:39.093 --> 00:28:39.526
Okay.
00:28:39.526 --> 00:28:40.226
Right.
00:28:40.226 --> 00:28:45.925
How if they acknowledge, if they do that type of thing, but if they want to sit there in silence with it, be okay.
00:28:45.925 --> 00:28:52.625
Sitting there in silence for a second because so many people, your performance isn't up to par and we need to fix this.
00:28:52.625 --> 00:28:55.460
And then there's that awkward silence.
00:28:55.460 --> 00:29:07.625
But as soon as there's a but suddenly the conversation has flown out the window and you've got the the that hind hindquarter irritation again that we talked about, um, be okay with the moment of silence.
00:29:07.625 --> 00:29:21.593
The goal in this, the goal really in part two of this conversation, the two to five minutes that is it's to isolate the variable S p says x. The result was y. Help me understand the gap.
00:29:21.593 --> 00:29:22.460
Yeah.
00:29:22.460 --> 00:29:25.425
This is this is what we're solving for.
00:29:25.425 --> 00:29:29.692
If it's not a conversation, it could have been an email.
00:29:29.692 --> 00:29:31.492
Yes.
00:29:31.492 --> 00:29:34.059
Unless it's a termination or something to that effect.
00:29:34.059 --> 00:29:37.860
But really you have to be in there to say, look, this is X.
00:29:37.860 --> 00:29:40.492
This is why I need help in understanding the gap.
00:29:40.492 --> 00:29:44.293
Once again, we're not we don't want to feel people to feel attacked.
00:29:44.293 --> 00:29:47.660
No. Because now I've said the SOP says this.
00:29:47.660 --> 00:29:49.360
I'm not saying, you idiot.
00:29:49.360 --> 00:29:51.860
Why didn't you why didn't you do your job?
00:29:51.860 --> 00:29:53.992
Yes, I'm looking for a solution.
00:29:53.992 --> 00:29:55.793
I'm not looking to scream at someone.
00:29:55.793 --> 00:29:59.026
Now, the next five to eight minutes of this is.
00:29:59.026 --> 00:30:00.960
That's the operational debt.
00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:11.326
Um, when you skip step three in CRM, the accounting team loses their mind because now they have to spend two hours fixing it on a Friday starting at four o'clock.
00:30:12.692 --> 00:30:15.925
Um, that's a friction point we can't afford.
00:30:15.925 --> 00:30:19.660
Um, those are the things it moves it from the boss's mad.
00:30:19.660 --> 00:30:20.026
Yes.
00:30:20.026 --> 00:30:21.326
To the machine's breaking.
00:30:21.326 --> 00:30:23.559
Or you're the one throwing the wrench in the works.
00:30:23.559 --> 00:30:24.492
Exactly.
00:30:24.492 --> 00:30:26.526
We need to find out why that.
00:30:26.526 --> 00:30:28.759
That's where we have to go to.
00:30:28.759 --> 00:30:33.992
The clearest kind protocol with this is the ask for their commitment to fix.
00:30:33.992 --> 00:30:41.960
Once again, either the fix or if this is the sweaty ten minute exit conversation, the fix is get your stuff and get out of here.
00:30:41.960 --> 00:30:44.093
Um, that that is the fix.
00:30:44.093 --> 00:30:44.526
Yeah.
00:30:44.526 --> 00:30:48.360
To me, it's okay to script this too and have it someplace you can look at it.
00:30:48.360 --> 00:30:49.492
Now we've identified the gap.
00:30:49.492 --> 00:30:52.793
What's the one thing you're going to change today to ensure it doesn't happen again?
00:30:52.793 --> 00:30:53.160
Great.
00:30:53.160 --> 00:30:54.026
I'll document this.
00:30:54.026 --> 00:30:55.326
We'll check on it again Friday.
00:30:55.326 --> 00:30:57.125
You've got the two pieces to it.
00:30:57.125 --> 00:30:58.293
What's the solution?
00:30:58.293 --> 00:31:02.660
And when you alluded to both of those things, to what's the what's the solution?
00:31:02.660 --> 00:31:07.226
And when those are the things that all need to be brought together in that.
00:31:07.226 --> 00:31:12.726
And once again, this is we've got four basic steps of this conversation.
00:31:12.726 --> 00:31:18.160
They don't necessarily I mean, you look, if you add this up in the right way, this is I mean, a minute and a half.
00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:20.259
I mean, it can be really efficient.
00:31:20.259 --> 00:31:23.826
You can add in dialogue, you can say, hey, can you help?
00:31:23.826 --> 00:31:25.726
This is what I've said.
00:31:25.726 --> 00:31:29.425
Can you explain it to me so I can make sure that you understand?
00:31:29.425 --> 00:31:32.093
I think it's perfectly fine to do that in dialogue too.
00:31:32.093 --> 00:31:43.559
And that's especially if you're a crappy explainer of the things, and especially too when you're in the evidence space of this, when you say X is the result we were looking for Y, where's the gap?
00:31:43.559 --> 00:31:45.826
That's their chance to say look.
00:31:45.826 --> 00:31:51.893
And once again, this is where you have to go into some of these sweaty ten minute conversations to learn.
00:31:51.893 --> 00:31:52.259
Yes.
00:31:52.259 --> 00:31:55.759
Not to, unless there's a corrective action here.
00:31:55.759 --> 00:32:00.526
And once again, I've been in these conversations where I'm like, dude, why are you doing this?
00:32:00.526 --> 00:32:02.893
And they're like, oh, I do this because of this.
00:32:02.893 --> 00:32:03.625
Yeah.
00:32:03.625 --> 00:32:07.360
Oh, well, we've learned something here that we can work on.
00:32:07.360 --> 00:32:07.793
Yeah.
00:32:07.793 --> 00:32:10.492
And once again, you have to make sure this is done.
00:32:10.492 --> 00:32:13.026
Like you can't go outside of SOPs.
00:32:13.026 --> 00:32:15.226
We need to establish something with this.
00:32:15.226 --> 00:32:16.692
But you can improve out of this.
00:32:16.692 --> 00:32:17.226
Yeah.
00:32:17.226 --> 00:32:26.625
I think a common mistake that leaders, first time managers will also make is that they think that the sweaty ten minute conversation is only used for corrective action.
00:32:26.625 --> 00:32:27.226
It is not.
00:32:27.226 --> 00:32:27.726
It's not.
00:32:27.726 --> 00:32:28.160
It is.
00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:29.692
It is constant dialogue.
00:32:29.692 --> 00:32:30.460
Correct.
00:32:30.460 --> 00:32:36.425
It can be any type of conversation that might have any chance of an emotional impact or someone misunderstanding.
00:32:36.425 --> 00:32:40.860
So I think I make the argument that every conversation has the potential to be a sweaty ten minute conversation.
00:32:40.860 --> 00:32:45.593
So if you normalize it, you're a lot less likely to freak out when you actually have to have a real one.
00:32:45.593 --> 00:32:49.593
This, this one hundred percent goes back to that, the trust that I talked about.
00:32:49.593 --> 00:32:56.460
If they feel like you have their best interest in mind, if they feel like you are trying to make them better.
00:32:56.460 --> 00:33:02.125
Then once again, these conversations are so much easier because it doesn't feel like an attack.
00:33:02.125 --> 00:33:02.625
Exactly.
00:33:02.625 --> 00:33:09.226
And if you model how to have a good, sweaty ten minute conversation, I mean, newsflash, some of your people may want to have one with you too.
00:33:11.226 --> 00:33:14.226
They may want to give you feedback as well, and I hope they do.
00:33:14.226 --> 00:33:15.160
I do too.
00:33:15.160 --> 00:33:24.259
Um, one of my favorite things to talk about is because I still remember a CEO sitting me down and saying, look, I'm going to give you the shit sandwich here.
00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:27.992
Just the look on your face.
00:33:27.992 --> 00:33:29.393
And I'm like, why?
00:33:29.393 --> 00:33:31.393
Like, dude, something got screwed up.
00:33:31.393 --> 00:33:32.793
We know it got screwed up.
00:33:32.793 --> 00:33:33.226
It's funny.
00:33:33.226 --> 00:33:36.059
It was two other people that really screwed it up, but they blamed me.
00:33:36.059 --> 00:33:39.860
So I was in the meeting also, and the CEO just talked the whole time.
00:33:39.860 --> 00:33:46.259
And he, he told us the, the, the good, the bad and then the good.
00:33:46.259 --> 00:33:59.992
And this once again, you know, I've quoted Spy game, the movie a few times in this, um, there was someone that, uh, uh, there was a phone call that came in to Robert Redford and his character in this, and, uh, it was kind of funny.
00:33:59.992 --> 00:34:01.326
It was that first.
00:34:01.326 --> 00:34:04.460
Hey, we really appreciate what you've been doing.
00:34:04.460 --> 00:34:05.660
And he laughs.
00:34:05.660 --> 00:34:06.759
And they said, why did you laugh?
00:34:06.759 --> 00:34:10.492
And he goes, that's what my coach told me right before I was about to get benched.
00:34:12.192 --> 00:34:12.860
Uh huh.
00:34:12.860 --> 00:34:14.159
And that's what it is.
00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:16.925
I mean, like, you're not, you're the employee.
00:34:16.925 --> 00:34:22.293
Like when the employee walks in and you give them the shit sandwich, they're not like, mm, bread.
00:34:22.293 --> 00:34:25.293
No, that's not what they're not excited.
00:34:25.293 --> 00:34:26.726
That's not what they're tasting.
00:34:26.726 --> 00:34:29.226
No. Like, what's your take on it?
00:34:29.226 --> 00:34:35.525
So I think the sandwich method trained an entire generation of employees to distrust any type of compliment.
00:34:35.525 --> 00:34:42.460
I agree because, I mean, I was in college and I was learning how to give this type of corrective action.
00:34:42.460 --> 00:34:44.025
Like we trained on it in college.
00:35:21.355 --> 00:35:25.190
We wrote essays that were specifically and business letters.
00:35:25.190 --> 00:35:29.222
I remember in business school, it was like, this is what you have to deliver and you're going to follow.
00:35:29.222 --> 00:35:34.989
It was I mean, it didn't say the shit sandwich, but I mean, it literally was praise.
00:35:34.989 --> 00:35:36.355
Negative praise.
00:35:36.355 --> 00:35:40.589
I mean, when you do that, I mean, pray should be clean.
00:35:40.589 --> 00:35:41.722
Correction should be clear.
00:35:41.722 --> 00:35:45.789
And when you blend them together, people stop believing either one.
00:35:45.789 --> 00:35:48.489
So you've it's one thing to say appreciation.
00:35:48.489 --> 00:35:50.322
You know, I appreciate the work that you do.
00:35:50.322 --> 00:35:52.622
Here's some things that we need to work on.
00:35:52.622 --> 00:35:54.055
That's fine.
00:35:54.055 --> 00:35:57.322
But you don't talk about how I you know, I'm really glad you're here in this moment.
00:35:57.322 --> 00:35:58.289
You're probably not.
00:35:58.289 --> 00:36:00.955
So don't lie to people.
00:36:00.955 --> 00:36:05.022
If I put two pieces of bread and some poop in a blender, do you want it?
00:36:05.022 --> 00:36:05.689
No.
00:36:07.355 --> 00:36:09.489
No. And this stupid method.
00:36:09.489 --> 00:36:13.022
I mean, it protects the leader from discomfort more than it helps the employee.
00:36:13.022 --> 00:36:14.922
You are confusing people.
00:36:14.922 --> 00:36:20.689
Employees shouldn't have to decode whether you're genuinely appreciating them or you're setting them up for criticism.
00:36:20.689 --> 00:36:29.489
I mean, we talk this is I mean, you talk about that framework in Dearman give fast, where you're validating, but validating does not mean that you are saying everything is perfect.
00:36:29.489 --> 00:36:33.355
And then here's this little thing that we're really not going to address because it makes me uncomfortable.
00:36:33.355 --> 00:36:35.855
You're talking about all the things.
00:36:35.855 --> 00:36:36.455
Yeah.
00:36:37.555 --> 00:36:38.489
It's frustration.
00:36:38.489 --> 00:36:39.289
Sorry.
00:36:39.289 --> 00:36:40.722
You're not going out for a sandwich tonight.
00:36:40.722 --> 00:36:45.955
No, no. I mean, if we are going to correct something, let's directly talk about the issue.
00:36:45.955 --> 00:36:48.889
I do not want you leaving my office thinking I think everything's great.
00:36:48.889 --> 00:36:49.555
No it's not.
00:36:49.555 --> 00:36:52.255
If I if, like, if we're having a hard conversation.
00:36:52.255 --> 00:36:54.389
I want to make sure that you understand what the issue is.
00:36:54.389 --> 00:36:57.122
And I understand what the issue is, and we know how to resolve it together.
00:36:57.122 --> 00:36:58.255
Yeah.
00:36:58.255 --> 00:36:58.522
Yeah.
00:36:58.522 --> 00:37:00.522
No, I wholeheartedly agree.
00:37:00.522 --> 00:37:04.722
What happens when the boss is the one getting the sweaty, getting the getting the sweat?
00:37:04.722 --> 00:37:08.122
Oh, I think this is really one of the healthiest signs of culture.
00:37:08.122 --> 00:37:09.089
I do too.
00:37:09.089 --> 00:37:10.155
It's so funny.
00:37:10.155 --> 00:37:16.089
I mean, some people are like, oh my, my employee was like, really giving me the business on something.
00:37:16.089 --> 00:37:16.489
Yeah.
00:37:16.489 --> 00:37:16.855
They should.
00:37:16.855 --> 00:37:17.689
That's wonderful.
00:37:17.689 --> 00:37:18.389
They should.
00:37:18.389 --> 00:37:18.755
Yeah.
00:37:18.755 --> 00:37:24.289
I mean, I think employees need to understand, you know, leading upward is not emotional unloading.
00:37:24.289 --> 00:37:27.222
It's really respectful clarity and a good way.
00:37:27.222 --> 00:37:37.622
If you're an employee and you're trying to figure out how do I tell my boss I need something or I need them to do something, I think a good upward conversation kind of sounds like, you know, I want to share something that's making it harder for me to succeed.
00:37:37.622 --> 00:37:38.122
That's it.
00:37:38.122 --> 00:37:40.355
You don't say like you're a terrible leader.
00:37:40.355 --> 00:37:41.355
No. Hey, jerk.
00:37:41.355 --> 00:37:42.355
That's not what you do.
00:37:42.355 --> 00:37:42.922
You just.
00:37:42.922 --> 00:37:43.522
You share.
00:37:43.522 --> 00:37:46.255
I want to share something that's making it harder for me to succeed.
00:37:46.255 --> 00:37:52.289
I, I want, like, I always get suspect if someone's not willing to say something difficult to me.
00:37:52.289 --> 00:37:52.889
Yeah.
00:37:52.889 --> 00:37:54.655
Um, I'm always like, um.
00:37:54.655 --> 00:37:56.089
I'm off the mark here.
00:37:56.089 --> 00:37:56.655
Yeah.
00:37:56.655 --> 00:37:57.489
I really am.
00:37:57.489 --> 00:38:03.955
Well, and yeah, if leaders, if no one is willing to challenge you, your culture is probably more fearful than healthy.
00:38:03.955 --> 00:38:08.722
We didn't want to bother you with this issue really, or we didn't want to tell you.
00:38:08.722 --> 00:38:09.889
No, that's a problem.
00:38:09.889 --> 00:38:10.955
That's a big problem.
00:38:10.955 --> 00:38:11.455
Yeah.
00:38:11.455 --> 00:38:14.855
How do you reset after after the the ugly conversation?
00:38:14.855 --> 00:38:16.022
How do you reset after that?
00:38:16.022 --> 00:38:19.522
Do you like because I've seen some people like I still remember this.
00:38:19.522 --> 00:38:20.289
Oh gosh.
00:38:20.289 --> 00:38:22.455
Um, I worked someplace.
00:38:22.455 --> 00:38:30.989
I just got Basically screamed at for some results of something, and then my desk was closed.
00:38:30.989 --> 00:38:32.222
So we were in a conference room.
00:38:32.222 --> 00:38:37.455
My desk was close to their desk and they're like, hey, we still on for dinner Saturday?
00:38:37.455 --> 00:38:40.555
Like we did you look at them?
00:38:40.555 --> 00:38:42.589
Did you were their four letter words.
00:38:42.589 --> 00:38:47.689
I'm like, I'm like, this is awkward for sure because a bunch of us would always go out, put glass in it.
00:38:47.689 --> 00:38:52.055
But yeah, there was five or six of us that would go out and they're like, you're still going for dinner on Saturday?
00:38:52.055 --> 00:38:54.355
And I'm like, here's my middle finger, right?
00:38:54.355 --> 00:38:56.789
I'm kind of like, well, this is this sucks.
00:38:56.789 --> 00:38:58.789
So what's your, what's your reset?
00:38:58.789 --> 00:39:03.189
I'm assuming that's not, it's not a slap on the ass and go get em, killer.
00:39:03.189 --> 00:39:06.155
No emotional whiplash confuses people.
00:39:06.155 --> 00:39:18.555
I mean, I think it does you the healthiest thing you can do is I mean, you normalize the relationship so you're not punishing the person emotionally afterwards, afterward, but you don't overcompensate either, because I hate it when people are like, hey, everything okay?
00:39:18.555 --> 00:39:27.722
And it's like, no, they should let them be mad, let them be upset or I mean, like a. The conversation should feel like we address the issue.
00:39:27.722 --> 00:39:30.055
We have a plan and we're going to move forward.
00:39:30.055 --> 00:39:32.689
It should not feel like this didn't ever happen.
00:39:32.689 --> 00:39:34.155
We're going to pretend like it never happened.
00:39:34.155 --> 00:39:36.889
No, no. You had an awkward conversation.
00:39:36.889 --> 00:39:49.489
No. If the employee handled the feedback professionally, you acknowledge that you're going to reinforce the maturity that that person has, not the mistake that they made because, you know, direct conversation should create clarity, not lingering awkwardness.
00:39:49.489 --> 00:39:55.922
And when you act like everything's fine after you just chewed somebody out, like I just, that's psychotic.
00:39:55.922 --> 00:39:57.922
That's not a healthy work environment.
00:39:57.922 --> 00:40:04.055
It's just you can't or become, you become overly cheerful or you become overly apologetic.
00:40:04.055 --> 00:40:04.922
I hear it all the time.
00:40:04.922 --> 00:40:08.655
I had to yell at everyone, or I had to yell at this person, and now I'm gonna give them cupcakes.
00:40:08.655 --> 00:40:10.755
No, I was just gonna say pizza.
00:40:10.755 --> 00:40:13.655
But yeah, I see it all the time.
00:40:13.655 --> 00:40:15.989
To me, a couple of key takeaways for the day.
00:40:15.989 --> 00:40:18.255
One issue, one issue at a time.
00:40:18.255 --> 00:40:20.722
Do not bring the laundry list to a sweaty conversation.
00:40:20.722 --> 00:40:23.055
Pick one behavior, fix it and move on.
00:40:23.055 --> 00:40:24.822
Yeah, this is not the ninety five theses.
00:40:24.822 --> 00:40:26.589
We're not nailing it to a door.
00:40:26.589 --> 00:40:29.322
Um, say it cleanly.
00:40:29.322 --> 00:40:35.422
Clear feedback builds trust factor faster than soften feedback ever will be clear because they know what the hell you're saying.
00:40:35.422 --> 00:40:36.055
Exactly.
00:40:36.055 --> 00:40:40.289
If you need to practice your openly opening line, you're opening 30s out loud.
00:40:40.289 --> 00:40:43.522
If you can get past the opener, the rest becomes much easier.
00:40:43.522 --> 00:40:44.089
Agreed.
00:40:44.089 --> 00:40:45.222
Normalize the sweat.
00:40:45.222 --> 00:40:48.255
So hard conversations are not a sign that your culture is broken.
00:40:48.255 --> 00:40:50.955
They're a sign that the culture is functioning.
00:40:50.955 --> 00:40:52.889
Yeah, I totally agree.
00:40:52.889 --> 00:40:54.322
Um, look at your team.
00:40:54.322 --> 00:40:56.455
Like audit the niceness debt.
00:40:56.455 --> 00:40:59.089
Um, who are you currently frustrated with?
00:40:59.089 --> 00:41:03.089
Is that frustration a sign that you need that sweaty ten minute conversation?
00:41:03.089 --> 00:41:05.122
Because in many cases, get it out.
00:41:05.122 --> 00:41:05.455
Yeah.
00:41:05.455 --> 00:41:07.089
And you're going to address this issue directly.
00:41:07.089 --> 00:41:11.522
You're going to define the next step, and you're not going to let awkwardness become new culture.
00:41:11.522 --> 00:41:13.855
I have one more actionable thing you can put in our notes.
00:41:13.855 --> 00:41:14.289
Okay.
00:41:14.289 --> 00:41:15.622
Extra deodorant.
00:41:15.622 --> 00:41:17.322
Yes.
00:41:17.322 --> 00:41:18.322
That's fine.
00:41:18.322 --> 00:41:19.655
Make sure you have Kleenex.
00:41:19.655 --> 00:41:23.255
And I will say, and this isn't in our notes either, but it's something that we talk about all the time.
00:41:23.255 --> 00:41:26.855
If you are not good at this, get coaching around it one hundred percent.
00:41:26.855 --> 00:41:27.189
You need.
00:41:27.189 --> 00:41:31.455
This is probably one of the things that we do not professionally develop enough.
00:41:31.455 --> 00:41:34.655
Managers need to understand how to have these conversations with their people.
00:41:34.655 --> 00:41:38.189
Business owners need to be able to have these conversations with their managers.
00:41:38.189 --> 00:41:45.289
And as you level up in your organization, it is a leveling up of the ten minute conversation one hundred percent.
00:41:45.289 --> 00:41:51.555
Uh, should these conversations ever happen via Slack or email, be brave enough to be the person your team needs.
00:41:51.555 --> 00:41:52.755
We're not going to hide.
00:41:52.755 --> 00:41:54.222
No, don't shrink the same way.
00:41:54.222 --> 00:41:55.089
I feel the same way.
00:41:55.089 --> 00:41:59.089
And I mean, look, if you've got remote employees, you still need to talk to them directly.
00:41:59.089 --> 00:41:59.422
Yeah.
00:41:59.422 --> 00:42:01.689
I mean, they need to see that you're looking at them.
00:42:01.689 --> 00:42:05.222
They need to see that you're engaged and they need to see that you're receptive.
00:42:05.222 --> 00:42:06.222
Absolutely.
00:42:06.222 --> 00:42:08.422
Well, when someone starts crying.
00:42:08.422 --> 00:42:09.289
Yeah.
00:42:09.289 --> 00:42:10.055
What do you do?
00:42:10.055 --> 00:42:11.022
I pass the Kleenex.
00:42:11.022 --> 00:42:12.155
I take a deep breath.
00:42:13.155 --> 00:42:15.022
We do not rescue from discomfort.
00:42:15.022 --> 00:42:15.655
We just.
00:42:15.655 --> 00:42:16.822
Because it's there.
00:42:16.822 --> 00:42:17.222
Yeah.
00:42:17.222 --> 00:42:18.389
You just.
00:42:18.389 --> 00:42:19.922
Okay, I'll just wait now.
00:42:19.922 --> 00:42:22.522
I usually try and set them out ahead of time if I think it's going to go.
00:42:22.522 --> 00:42:24.289
Generally have them on my like there.
00:42:24.289 --> 00:42:25.589
It's there over there.
00:42:25.589 --> 00:42:27.322
That preparation stage that I talked about.
00:42:27.322 --> 00:42:28.155
Yeah, I have Kleenex.
00:42:28.155 --> 00:42:36.355
And then I also have like a sand tray so that if it's hard conversation and somebody doesn't want to look at me, I give them permission to walk through the sand tray.
00:42:36.355 --> 00:42:37.689
It's like, I'm actually a therapist.
00:42:37.689 --> 00:42:38.522
I'm not.
00:42:38.522 --> 00:42:40.155
But I have those tools.
00:42:40.155 --> 00:42:41.522
I've learned they're helpful.
00:42:43.389 --> 00:42:43.789
All right.
00:42:43.789 --> 00:42:47.289
Josh, can you have a sweaty conversation with a client who's breaking your process?
00:42:47.289 --> 00:42:49.389
Hell yes we are.
00:42:49.389 --> 00:42:50.122
It's so funny.
00:42:50.122 --> 00:42:52.389
I had to do it in the studio a few weeks ago.
00:42:52.389 --> 00:42:55.522
Um, someone came in and they're like, hey, we're going to do.
00:42:55.522 --> 00:42:58.855
I said, no, no. I said, look, this is the process.
00:42:58.855 --> 00:43:00.322
This is how we do this.
00:43:00.322 --> 00:43:05.189
This is how we're going to ensure that we are going to deliver those results that you want.
00:43:05.189 --> 00:43:07.289
This is the process that you signed up for.
00:43:07.289 --> 00:43:10.089
If you want to do something else, that's fine.
00:43:10.089 --> 00:43:11.822
You're probably not going to do it here.
00:43:11.822 --> 00:43:14.022
Um, we, we've done this.
00:43:14.022 --> 00:43:15.089
We're the experts with it.
00:43:15.089 --> 00:43:17.455
I'm assuming you've had that same conversation.
00:43:17.455 --> 00:43:18.355
Oh, absolutely.
00:43:18.355 --> 00:43:18.789
Yeah.
00:43:18.789 --> 00:43:19.122
Yeah.
00:43:19.122 --> 00:43:24.289
You have to especially I mean, if they're not following the things that are going to probably get them sued.
00:43:24.289 --> 00:43:25.289
Yeah.
00:43:25.289 --> 00:43:34.889
And to me, the other thing that I see with it is too, is it's, it's that it's the, I don't want to say it's the client that wants the discount, but the one that's like, hey, could you guys do this?
00:43:34.889 --> 00:43:36.355
And could you guys do this?
00:43:36.355 --> 00:43:38.822
And could you guys also do it this way?
00:43:38.822 --> 00:43:46.289
It's like, no, because that like, suddenly you've got someone that's paying one thousand dollars for four thousand dollars worth of work.
00:43:46.289 --> 00:43:47.055
Well, exactly.
00:43:47.055 --> 00:43:47.855
We have one.
00:43:47.855 --> 00:43:48.889
I just had this conversation.
00:43:48.889 --> 00:43:54.189
It was around billing specifically where they said, you know, we think we have all these entities that are under this model.
00:43:54.189 --> 00:43:55.822
We'd like you to break all of the bills up.
00:43:55.822 --> 00:44:00.822
And I said, if we break all the bills up, those are separate contracts and you're going to pay more because we cannot accommodate.
00:44:00.822 --> 00:44:03.055
That's the one accommodation we will not make for your model.
00:44:03.055 --> 00:44:06.089
And they went, oh, so it'll be more expensive if you do it this way.
00:44:06.089 --> 00:44:07.889
I said, yes, oh never mind.
00:44:09.622 --> 00:44:10.455
Pretty easy.
00:44:10.455 --> 00:44:11.322
We understand.
00:44:11.322 --> 00:44:12.322
Yeah, yeah.
00:44:12.322 --> 00:44:13.122
Costs more to do that.
00:44:13.122 --> 00:44:13.589
Great.
00:44:13.589 --> 00:44:14.022
We're out.
00:44:14.022 --> 00:44:15.655
No, we like the way you're doing it right now.
00:44:15.655 --> 00:44:16.755
I figured you did.
00:44:16.755 --> 00:44:17.355
Works fine.
00:44:17.355 --> 00:44:18.455
Works fine.
00:44:18.455 --> 00:44:20.755
That being said, we've got.
00:44:20.755 --> 00:44:24.055
I mean, we've got some more interesting conversations coming up.
00:44:24.055 --> 00:44:30.789
The next one, as I dive deep into the folder, here is how you should stop babysitting people.
00:44:30.789 --> 00:44:31.189
Yeah.
00:44:31.189 --> 00:44:37.155
You stop moving from the hero culture once again, tear the cape off to process culture.
00:44:37.155 --> 00:44:38.822
No one needs to be hero.
00:44:38.822 --> 00:44:42.022
Everyone can do really, really well.
00:44:43.055 --> 00:44:44.022
Do us a favor.
00:44:44.022 --> 00:44:46.689
Business podcast dot com.
00:44:46.689 --> 00:44:48.455
As always, take care of yourself.
00:44:48.455 --> 00:44:50.155
If you can't take care of someone else too.
00:44:50.155 --> 00:44:53.022
We will see you very, very soon.