Neil Markey | Integrity Over Profit: The New Rule for Psychedelic Healing

WEBVTT
1
00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:02.240
My name is doctor Fleet Mall and I'm your co
2
00:00:02.279 --> 00:00:04.440
host for the session, and I'm really happy to be
3
00:00:04.480 --> 00:00:05.759
here today with Neil Marky.
4
00:00:05.799 --> 00:00:08.160
Welcome Neil, thanks for having me Fleet.
5
00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:13.439
Okay, so Neil, today we're in particular, we're exploring standards,
6
00:00:13.480 --> 00:00:16.359
ethics and best practices both for treatment and for the
7
00:00:16.440 --> 00:00:21.039
training of therapists or psychaic practitioners of psychic assist and
8
00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:24.079
therapy at various times. And you know, they're not hard
9
00:00:24.120 --> 00:00:26.000
limits on that. We may touch on other areas, but
10
00:00:26.039 --> 00:00:28.719
that's kind of the principal focus. So I'm wondering to
11
00:00:28.760 --> 00:00:33.039
begin with how your journey from military service and in
12
00:00:33.079 --> 00:00:37.280
an elite unit in the military to leading Beckley retreats.
13
00:00:37.320 --> 00:00:39.399
You know, how that tell us a little bit about
14
00:00:39.439 --> 00:00:43.320
that journey and also how that then informed your approach
15
00:00:43.439 --> 00:00:47.079
to a strong emphsis on ethics in your programs and
16
00:00:47.119 --> 00:00:49.679
a delivery of programs and a training of therapists and
17
00:00:49.719 --> 00:00:50.240
so forth.
18
00:00:50.799 --> 00:00:51.240
Yeah.
19
00:00:51.320 --> 00:00:54.079
I was in the service from roughly two thousand and
20
00:00:54.159 --> 00:00:57.000
six to two thousand and twelve. I went Ti Iraq
21
00:00:57.039 --> 00:01:02.560
once in Afghanistan twice and was fortunate relative to many
22
00:01:02.719 --> 00:01:05.719
I was a officer and for some of the deployments
23
00:01:05.799 --> 00:01:08.719
did more support and so I was one step.
24
00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:10.159
Removed from the worst of it.
25
00:01:10.359 --> 00:01:12.959
When I did my first ranger deployment, some of the
26
00:01:13.040 --> 00:01:15.000
rangers were on like their tenth or eleventh you know,
27
00:01:15.079 --> 00:01:17.000
So these guys had been in it for a while.
28
00:01:17.359 --> 00:01:21.000
And now looking back, I mean the entire unit had PTSD.
29
00:01:21.519 --> 00:01:24.120
You just don't realize it at the time because you're
30
00:01:24.159 --> 00:01:26.280
surrounded by it becomes the new normal.
31
00:01:26.560 --> 00:01:29.319
But now with the benefit of hindsight, it was. It
32
00:01:29.359 --> 00:01:29.760
was thick.
33
00:01:30.280 --> 00:01:32.359
And I got out and went to grad school and
34
00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:35.319
that's kind of where the bottom fell out in some ways.
35
00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:38.959
I mean, by some measures, I was doing well professionally.
36
00:01:39.040 --> 00:01:42.920
I was at a good school and was getting good
37
00:01:43.000 --> 00:01:46.439
job offers. But I was isolating and I was really struggling.
38
00:01:46.480 --> 00:01:49.280
I was going through a divorce and through that I
39
00:01:49.319 --> 00:01:52.280
got or is that roomy saying that you know, when
40
00:01:52.280 --> 00:01:54.040
you're on your knees is a good time to pray,
41
00:01:54.640 --> 00:01:54.879
you know.
42
00:01:54.920 --> 00:01:56.760
I feel like I kind of got had.
43
00:01:56.640 --> 00:01:59.760
A bit of a rock bottom moment and was looking
44
00:01:59.799 --> 00:02:03.079
for a way to feel better, and I'd introduced a meditation.
45
00:02:03.200 --> 00:02:06.280
I stumbled into this Mindfulness for Business Leader's course that
46
00:02:06.400 --> 00:02:08.120
was being taught by a guy by the name of
47
00:02:08.159 --> 00:02:10.280
Home to Win, and he ended up kind of taking
48
00:02:10.319 --> 00:02:12.319
me under his wing and teaching me meditation. I think
49
00:02:12.360 --> 00:02:15.000
he was one of the first people that saw how
50
00:02:15.080 --> 00:02:19.199
much I was struggling. And then through that journey, I
51
00:02:19.240 --> 00:02:23.759
had the opportunity to have some professionally facilitated psychedelic experiences
52
00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:28.479
on underground. There's a long history of veterans getting access
53
00:02:28.479 --> 00:02:32.240
to these treatments. And how does that inform the ethics
54
00:02:32.680 --> 00:02:35.919
In a few ways. I mean, one, I tried the
55
00:02:36.599 --> 00:02:40.439
material path, you know, I was working in high finance,
56
00:02:40.520 --> 00:02:43.159
and I mean maybe it was intellectually stimulating, but it
57
00:02:43.159 --> 00:02:44.039
didn't fill me up.
58
00:02:44.479 --> 00:02:45.680
And so when I kind.
59
00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:48.879
Of made a decision to do this work, it wasn't
60
00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:51.680
about trying to make as much money as possible. Was
61
00:02:51.800 --> 00:02:55.000
trying to do something that I thought was meaningful. So
62
00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:57.159
I think that why people are doing it makes a
63
00:02:57.159 --> 00:02:59.960
big difference, you know, and the incentives makes a big difference.
64
00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:02.719
And I think we've done a good job of building
65
00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:06.960
a team and finding supporters that are okay with us
66
00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:10.240
taking our time and going slowly and trying to do
67
00:03:10.319 --> 00:03:13.159
things in the right way, even if that might not
68
00:03:13.240 --> 00:03:17.800
be the best financial decisions in some cases. I think
69
00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:21.599
this work, you know, should be done with reverence and care.
70
00:03:21.800 --> 00:03:26.159
It's profound, it's really powerful. There's a lot here, but
71
00:03:26.240 --> 00:03:29.400
there's also risks, you know, and I think if we
72
00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:32.479
want to do this well and really help a lot
73
00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:35.199
of people, you've got to do it with the highest
74
00:03:35.240 --> 00:03:36.719
standards that you can.
75
00:03:38.159 --> 00:03:39.840
Wonder if you good understands.
76
00:03:39.879 --> 00:03:43.360
Beckley Retreats is connected to the Beckley Foundation, and I
77
00:03:43.479 --> 00:03:46.280
just wonder if you could reference the Beckley Foundation's work
78
00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:48.719
and its founder for a moment, because I think it's
79
00:03:48.759 --> 00:03:49.719
been played.
80
00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:51.800
A very large role in the development of the research
81
00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:52.439
in this field.
82
00:03:52.800 --> 00:03:56.080
The Beckley Foundation was founded by a woman by the
83
00:03:56.120 --> 00:04:00.599
name of Amanda Fielding who has been studying akadelics for
84
00:04:00.639 --> 00:04:05.800
her entire life over sixty years. And she had some
85
00:04:05.879 --> 00:04:10.319
mystical experiences in her youth and just thought that these
86
00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:13.840
experiences could change the world. To be frank, they could
87
00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:16.879
help people see differently and behave differently, and so she
88
00:04:16.959 --> 00:04:21.079
really dedicated her entire life to studying these compounds, and
89
00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:24.480
in nineteen ninety eight she formed the Beckley Foundation and really,
90
00:04:24.519 --> 00:04:28.319
through sheer willpower and charisma, she rallied some of the
91
00:04:28.360 --> 00:04:32.120
world's leading scientists to partner with her and the Beckley
92
00:04:32.120 --> 00:04:35.199
Foundation kind of had a dual mandate. One was to
93
00:04:35.279 --> 00:04:39.639
do good research and show the benefit for these compounds
94
00:04:39.639 --> 00:04:42.959
for different clinical indications and also for non clinical indications.
95
00:04:43.000 --> 00:04:48.040
And then also importantly they were Amanda was working to
96
00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:50.600
change international drug policy, and.
97
00:04:50.600 --> 00:04:51.720
She knew you had to do both.
98
00:04:51.759 --> 00:04:54.399
You couldn't do good research if the laws were so
99
00:04:54.480 --> 00:04:57.199
restrictive that it wouldn't allow it, and you couldn't change
100
00:04:57.199 --> 00:04:59.639
the laws if you didn't have good data to lobby
101
00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:04.120
for change. So she's been really instrumental in getting us
102
00:05:04.120 --> 00:05:05.759
to the place where we can have these really open
103
00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:08.920
conversations today, her and a few others and frankly some
104
00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:13.480
of these indigenous communities that never lost the dream. And
105
00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:17.360
then her family she has two sons and quite a
106
00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:21.439
network of supporters. Over the last ten years, I would say,
107
00:05:22.079 --> 00:05:24.519
started to see that the world was opening up and
108
00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:27.680
there was more interest in this work, more acceptance of
109
00:05:27.720 --> 00:05:30.600
this work, and they said, you know, the time is
110
00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:34.439
now to start building the infrastructure the things that are
111
00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:37.279
needed to kind of get it to more people. But
112
00:05:37.839 --> 00:05:40.360
I think they really set out to do it with care,
113
00:05:41.040 --> 00:05:43.519
and you know, Amanda came from a nonprofit background. This
114
00:05:43.560 --> 00:05:46.800
has never been about making money for her. This has
115
00:05:46.839 --> 00:05:50.600
been about helping people. And so I think that it
116
00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:54.199
was really kind of in the kind of founding principles
117
00:05:54.240 --> 00:05:57.079
of the broader Beckley ecosystem to try and fight a
118
00:05:57.120 --> 00:05:59.199
way to do this work that's sustainable. It needs to
119
00:05:59.199 --> 00:06:02.319
be sustainable, right, but to do it with heart and
120
00:06:02.439 --> 00:06:07.279
care then not have it just to be another Western
121
00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:08.480
investment vehicle.
122
00:06:09.079 --> 00:06:09.920
Well, thank you very much.
123
00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:13.639
I'm glad we could reference the Beckon Foundation bound because
124
00:06:13.639 --> 00:06:15.439
the man of Feeling has really been a pioneer in
125
00:06:15.480 --> 00:06:19.879
this field, really played an important role. So my understanding
126
00:06:19.959 --> 00:06:23.800
is that your retreats focus on psilocybin. It's the psychiaoltic
127
00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:26.040
medicine that you primarily work with. And I know you
128
00:06:26.720 --> 00:06:29.439
do this in countries where it's legal to offer the retreats.
129
00:06:29.519 --> 00:06:32.040
I think both in the Caribbean and the Netherlands, if
130
00:06:32.040 --> 00:06:33.480
I'm not mistaken.
131
00:06:33.240 --> 00:06:35.279
That's right, Jamaica in the Netherlands.
132
00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:36.040
Jamaica the Netherlands, right.
133
00:06:36.439 --> 00:06:40.439
And so for thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of years,
134
00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:45.839
psilocybin has been stewarded by indigenous peoples in its natural form,
135
00:06:46.120 --> 00:06:50.399
with the various psychlic mushrooms, magic mushrooms. So I just
136
00:06:50.439 --> 00:06:52.519
want to ask you a question about how in your
137
00:06:52.560 --> 00:06:54.800
work you do your best to honor this. A lot
138
00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:57.720
of people today are calling sacred or reciprocity, some way
139
00:06:57.720 --> 00:07:01.079
of just really respect the role of the Indigenous people
140
00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:04.439
in stewarding these to learn from them without co opting
141
00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:07.759
to support their ongoing engagement in the field where we
142
00:07:07.839 --> 00:07:11.879
can and just you know, have a really respectful, honoring relationship.
143
00:07:11.959 --> 00:07:14.040
So I wonder how that plays out your work.
144
00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:18.720
Yeah, we spent quite a lot of time and resource
145
00:07:19.480 --> 00:07:23.800
connecting with different Indigenous leaders and asking for their counsel
146
00:07:23.959 --> 00:07:28.319
as we thought about putting these programs together it would
147
00:07:28.319 --> 00:07:34.120
be for more of a Western audience, and took it
148
00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:36.920
to heart, and you know, did our best to learn
149
00:07:37.000 --> 00:07:40.480
from them and adopt some of the ways that we
150
00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:43.040
think are really important that are quite different than you
151
00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:46.920
might see in a clinical setting, but we believe actually
152
00:07:47.319 --> 00:07:48.279
are meaningful in that.
153
00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:51.199
You know, some of these wise.
154
00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:54.800
Leaders may have learned something over a few thousands of
155
00:07:54.879 --> 00:07:57.360
years of doing this work, and we should pay attention
156
00:07:57.439 --> 00:07:57.720
to that.
157
00:07:58.160 --> 00:08:01.399
But it was really through kind of continuous dialogue.
158
00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:04.319
You know, I wouldn't say that we've gotten it completely
159
00:08:04.399 --> 00:08:08.360
right for everyone, but we're you know, continuing to try
160
00:08:08.360 --> 00:08:11.000
and get feedback, and you do it in a really
161
00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:16.160
thoughtful way that honors the specialness of this work and
162
00:08:16.279 --> 00:08:19.399
allows for some of the artistry and some of the
163
00:08:19.439 --> 00:08:22.759
mysticism that I actually think is a kind of key
164
00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:26.920
component of getting you know, the most out of these experiences.
165
00:08:27.600 --> 00:08:30.759
What we're doing is challenging. We're bringing something new into
166
00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:32.679
the world, you know, or at least a new presentation
167
00:08:32.799 --> 00:08:35.320
of it. But I really believe in what we're doing,
168
00:08:35.320 --> 00:08:38.679
and I think that because of the way we're mixing
169
00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:44.279
some Western science with some traditional ways actually opens this
170
00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:47.679
work up to a demographic of people that might not
171
00:08:47.799 --> 00:08:50.879
go do it in the fully traditional sense and might
172
00:08:50.919 --> 00:08:52.279
not get as much out of it as they did
173
00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:54.840
it in a clinic. And so, you know, this middle
174
00:08:54.879 --> 00:08:58.279
path model I think that we're developing for some people
175
00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:01.600
and for some desired outcome is a really good fit.
176
00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:04.320
So I have a couple of questions, John, But first
177
00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:06.799
of all, my understanding is that the Beckley Retreats is
178
00:09:07.080 --> 00:09:10.519
offering just that, offering retreats or group retreats, So it's
179
00:09:10.639 --> 00:09:14.600
not traditional psychotherapy necessarily, and it's not a one on
180
00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:17.679
one therapeutic relationship. And so I'm just curious about the
181
00:09:17.720 --> 00:09:23.039
difference between what will hopefully be emerging as psycholic psychotherapy
182
00:09:23.279 --> 00:09:27.159
if any of these drugs are rescheduled. What's currently available
183
00:09:27.159 --> 00:09:30.960
in terms of ketemenis in psychotherapy practice in the US
184
00:09:31.480 --> 00:09:34.720
versus this kind of retreat work and the preparation. I
185
00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:37.399
assume youly retreats. I assume you have more retreat leaders
186
00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:41.720
their preparation. How this differs to what extent it does differ,
187
00:09:42.039 --> 00:09:43.480
So I wonder if you could just talk about that
188
00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:44.000
a little bit.
189
00:09:44.399 --> 00:09:49.519
Yeah, And our programs are explicitly non medical, non clinical,
190
00:09:49.639 --> 00:09:54.480
so we actually screen out severe indications, you know, treatment
191
00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:59.279
resistant depression complex PTSD. Not that those indications can't benefit
192
00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:02.759
from psycho like assistant work. I think they can, but
193
00:10:02.840 --> 00:10:05.480
it's just doesn't fit our model. So our model is
194
00:10:05.480 --> 00:10:08.279
more for what we would call the betterment of the well,
195
00:10:08.440 --> 00:10:13.120
and it's people that are looking for personal, professional, spiritual development,
196
00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:16.559
that want to become more empathetic, that want to become
197
00:10:16.600 --> 00:10:19.480
more creative, they want to become more connected, they want
198
00:10:19.559 --> 00:10:23.799
to let go bad habits to build new good habits.
199
00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:28.480
All those types of desired outcomes are really good fit
200
00:10:29.039 --> 00:10:32.039
and I would call our program more of like an
201
00:10:32.080 --> 00:10:35.519
integrative health program. So what we're trying to do is
202
00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:38.879
teach people new ways to think, in new ways to be,
203
00:10:39.039 --> 00:10:42.000
and kind of give them the practices and the information to.
204
00:10:41.960 --> 00:10:42.600
Be able to do that.
205
00:10:42.720 --> 00:10:47.480
So we do a preparation that's done digitally, and in
206
00:10:47.480 --> 00:10:53.279
that portion, we're giving people access to content, which is meditations,
207
00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:58.360
mindful movement exercises, breathwork exercises, and really what we're hoping
208
00:10:58.440 --> 00:11:01.320
people will do is that they try a few different
209
00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:04.840
of these basic well being practices and they pick a
210
00:11:04.840 --> 00:11:08.080
couple that will become, if you will, their new practice,
211
00:11:08.080 --> 00:11:11.200
their new morning ritual. And we do that as part
212
00:11:11.240 --> 00:11:14.039
of a group because if we looked at you know,
213
00:11:14.080 --> 00:11:17.320
when we looked at adult learning and habit change science,
214
00:11:17.879 --> 00:11:20.399
we know that in some ways people show up more
215
00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:21.200
for others than they.
216
00:11:21.039 --> 00:11:21.840
Do for themselves.
217
00:11:21.840 --> 00:11:24.039
So if you can create this kind of group dynamic
218
00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:29.039
where everybody's doing it together, you know, our thought is
219
00:11:29.080 --> 00:11:31.960
that we can get better compliance and can get more durable,
220
00:11:32.039 --> 00:11:35.360
better long term outcomes by doing it in a group setting.
221
00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:39.799
And then we bring people down to the immersive portion,
222
00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:41.960
which is in Jamaica, the Netherlands, and we try and
223
00:11:42.240 --> 00:11:45.440
get off the grid. We want to give people some space.
224
00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:47.960
We think that nature is actually a really important part
225
00:11:48.200 --> 00:11:51.679
of this work and again super supportive of what's happening
226
00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:54.360
in the clinic environment. But if you can give people
227
00:11:54.399 --> 00:11:56.919
some opportunity to do a bit of a digital detox
228
00:11:57.639 --> 00:12:00.720
and get their bare feet on the ground with other
229
00:12:00.840 --> 00:12:03.240
human beings while they're doing this work, we think that's
230
00:12:03.519 --> 00:12:07.200
again for some people and for some desired outcomes, that's
231
00:12:07.240 --> 00:12:10.360
even that's better, right, So we try and really choose
232
00:12:10.399 --> 00:12:12.679
locations that we can do that well. And over the
233
00:12:12.679 --> 00:12:16.919
five night immersive portion, we're doing all these practices together
234
00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:21.799
in community, and then we do two psilocybin sessions and
235
00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:25.279
those are done in a group setting more closely to
236
00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:27.600
what you would see in a traditional sense if you
237
00:12:27.639 --> 00:12:30.080
went and did this in some of these indigenous communities.
238
00:12:30.120 --> 00:12:32.879
And again not right or wrong, or good or bad,
239
00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:33.759
but we.
240
00:12:33.639 --> 00:12:35.519
Really like doing the work this way, and we think
241
00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:37.639
our guests really like doing it this way because you
242
00:12:37.720 --> 00:12:40.639
have your own individual experience, but there's a phenomena that's
243
00:12:40.639 --> 00:12:44.720
happening amongst the group that is pretty profound to see,
244
00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:47.840
you know, We bring in artistry and mindfulness, and we
245
00:12:47.879 --> 00:12:51.000
play live music and again, you know, try and really
246
00:12:51.399 --> 00:12:54.559
show some reverence for the traditions and how this work
247
00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:58.080
is done in different communities, and yeah, really bring the
248
00:12:58.080 --> 00:12:58.679
beauty in that.
249
00:12:59.080 --> 00:13:00.200
Intentionality to it.
250
00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:02.879
And you know, it's not so crazy to think that
251
00:13:02.919 --> 00:13:06.720
would have some meaningful impact on outcomes potentially, right. We
252
00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:13.639
see in medicine the placebo effect, So we like mindset matters, right,
253
00:13:14.159 --> 00:13:16.440
and so if we can have a thoughtful way to
254
00:13:16.519 --> 00:13:19.639
bring people into a space and make it special, well
255
00:13:19.679 --> 00:13:22.679
that might help the experience, you know. So we do that,
256
00:13:22.759 --> 00:13:24.559
and I think that's what a lot of these communities
257
00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:28.519
intuited into or learned over time, that making things special matters.
258
00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:32.039
And so yeah, it's I think a really thoughtful curriculum
259
00:13:32.159 --> 00:13:35.480
or program for the immersive. And then after the on
260
00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:38.399
site portion, we do six weeks of digital follow up
261
00:13:38.440 --> 00:13:39.679
and that's where.
262
00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:41.960
We're really trying to lay in the new habits, you know.
263
00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:45.559
And from a neuroscience perspective that we're theorizing, right, we
264
00:13:45.559 --> 00:13:48.399
don't understand the mechanics of the brain well, but it
265
00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:51.559
looks like these high dose experiences put the brain, central
266
00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:55.720
nervous system, body into this more neuroplastic or malleable state.
267
00:13:56.200 --> 00:13:56.879
And that's great.
268
00:13:56.960 --> 00:14:00.480
There's this increased potentiality for change, but you got to
269
00:14:00.519 --> 00:14:01.879
do something with it, you know.
270
00:14:01.919 --> 00:14:04.399
And so this is where we're really encouraging people.
271
00:14:04.120 --> 00:14:08.519
To check on their teammates, their classmates and really commit
272
00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:11.480
to doing the practices. And it looks like if you
273
00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:15.559
do that, you can have some pretty durable, long term change.
274
00:14:16.039 --> 00:14:18.559
And you mentioned these are sessions that are done during
275
00:14:18.600 --> 00:14:21.720
your treat are relatively high doose sessions. So what is
276
00:14:21.759 --> 00:14:23.200
the dosage generally.
277
00:14:23.240 --> 00:14:28.080
Between one to five grams of dried mushrooms, which is,
278
00:14:28.600 --> 00:14:32.320
you know, roughly equivalent to what you would see in
279
00:14:32.360 --> 00:14:35.639
the clinical trials. Clinical trials, you would see maybe point
280
00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:40.759
twenty five micrograms, which is roughly two point five grams
281
00:14:40.759 --> 00:14:43.840
of dried mushrooms. But we test the mushrooms so we
282
00:14:43.879 --> 00:14:46.960
know the amount of active psilocybin and adjust and then
283
00:14:47.559 --> 00:14:51.639
each individual gets an amount that is dependent on their
284
00:14:51.639 --> 00:14:55.679
discussions with the senior facilitators. So some people go lower,
285
00:14:56.120 --> 00:14:58.600
some people go a little higher, but it's in a
286
00:14:58.639 --> 00:14:59.759
predefined range.
287
00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:02.840
So it's really interesting the work that you're doing because
288
00:15:03.519 --> 00:15:06.240
with the clinical trials that have been going on with
289
00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:10.080
MDMA and psilocybin and some other psychoic medicines as well.
290
00:15:10.600 --> 00:15:14.559
The way they're conducted for research is incredibly expensive and
291
00:15:14.600 --> 00:15:18.799
not really scalable. You may have two clinicians there, the
292
00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:22.320
length of time of long sessions, and so there's been
293
00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:25.399
a lot of discussion ongoing discussion about some of these
294
00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:28.559
medicines are rescheduled for therapeutic use. How are we going
295
00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:31.399
to roll this out in a way that's accessible, that's equitable,
296
00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:33.799
and so forth, and not just something for the elite
297
00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:37.879
who can afford it, And so one of the suggestions
298
00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:41.200
has often been some kind of group therapy or practice.
299
00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:43.200
So it seems to me you're already.
300
00:15:42.879 --> 00:15:44.919
Involved with this and learning a lot about it as
301
00:15:44.919 --> 00:15:48.159
well as some of the online are digital preparation and
302
00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:52.960
online digital integration work. Following that, those may be necessary
303
00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:57.559
parts of being able to make psychic consistent therapy scalable.
304
00:15:57.639 --> 00:16:01.320
And it could be that you know, therapy group that's
305
00:16:01.519 --> 00:16:04.799
about psychical sists and therapy versus one of your retreat
306
00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:07.519
groups might might have a little bit different context and
307
00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:10.120
a little different modality, but there would certainly be a
308
00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:11.679
lot of crossovers.
309
00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:13.399
And a lot of similar a lot of learning, I think.
310
00:16:13.399 --> 00:16:16.279
So, I think what you're doing offers a lot kind
311
00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:20.799
of look into the future. So, and I'm also curious about,
312
00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:24.720
you know, with the interface between indigenous culture and Western culture.
313
00:16:24.879 --> 00:16:28.480
Certainly in North America and in many cases in Latin America,
314
00:16:28.919 --> 00:16:32.120
there's been an issue of Westerners sort of co opting
315
00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:36.240
Indigenous ways or Indigenous people feeling invaded or like their
316
00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:39.519
ways are being co opted. And some Indigenous people have
317
00:16:39.559 --> 00:16:42.320
been quite open and shared it quite broadly, others not
318
00:16:42.519 --> 00:16:46.240
wanting to for you know, reasonable obviously very reasonable reasons.
319
00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:48.799
So can be a little bit of attention there. And
320
00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:51.600
I think there's a lot of attention in the movement
321
00:16:51.639 --> 00:16:53.679
now given to how do we do this properly?
322
00:16:54.320 --> 00:16:55.679
And you know, I know that in the.
323
00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:58.759
Clinical trials, just trying to bring a little bit of intentionality,
324
00:16:58.759 --> 00:17:01.759
a little bit of a ceremony quality, you know, they'll
325
00:17:01.759 --> 00:17:04.279
put the medicine in addition, try even they're in this
326
00:17:04.359 --> 00:17:07.960
clinical setting in a hospital somewhere, they'll still try to
327
00:17:08.039 --> 00:17:10.759
offer the medicine in a way that you know, feels
328
00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:14.480
intentional and personal and meaningful. So I'm wondering if how
329
00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:18.359
you've learned to do that in your retreats and bring
330
00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:21.799
in that kind of traditional ceremonial aspect in ways that
331
00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:24.079
you feel you have permission to do it, in ways
332
00:17:24.119 --> 00:17:27.160
that you don't feel you're kind of co opting native traditions.
333
00:17:27.519 --> 00:17:30.240
Yeah, well, I mean we just asked. I mean, we
334
00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:32.599
have good relationships with some of the nonprofits that are
335
00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:36.480
out there, Chakruno being one of them, and we ask explicitly,
336
00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:39.279
you know, hey, this is the.
337
00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:41.319
Type of work we're hoping to do. Can you help
338
00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:42.119
us walk.
339
00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:46.359
This line that's reverent and honoring without co opting. And
340
00:17:46.519 --> 00:17:48.680
you know, I think that we're doing a good job.
341
00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:53.759
In Jamaica, there's some kind of indigenous tradition there and
342
00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:56.759
so you know, we allow that to come through in
343
00:17:56.759 --> 00:18:00.799
our programs. It's mostly predominantly Jamaican facilitated, and they've had
344
00:18:01.119 --> 00:18:04.279
ayahuasca and mushrooms for you know, some time there, and
345
00:18:04.359 --> 00:18:06.039
they have a little bit of a different way of
346
00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:09.119
doing it and we honor that as long as we
347
00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:14.519
can ensure some standards on around safety and make sure
348
00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:17.480
that you know, the safety is okay, We're okay with
349
00:18:17.880 --> 00:18:21.720
allowing some of that, you know, indigenous beauty.
350
00:18:21.799 --> 00:18:24.519
I would say to come into the programs, but you know,
351
00:18:24.839 --> 00:18:28.519
there are some folks out there that probably you know,
352
00:18:29.079 --> 00:18:30.240
don't like what we're doing.
353
00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:36.119
You know, we're doing our best to listen and take feedback,
354
00:18:36.559 --> 00:18:40.400
but even within some of these communities, you know, there's
355
00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:43.839
disagreements and that's not the right way versus.
356
00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:44.319
That the right way.
357
00:18:44.359 --> 00:18:46.960
And so I think that with many things, you've got
358
00:18:46.960 --> 00:18:48.559
to do everything you can.
359
00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:50.119
And if at the end of the day, you.
360
00:18:50.079 --> 00:18:53.160
Tune in and you really feel like you and your
361
00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:55.079
team are kind of working in alignment and you've done
362
00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:57.880
everything you can and you've really done this with heart,
363
00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:00.359
you know, you might not be able to please one
364
00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:03.480
hundred percent of the people out there because I don't
365
00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:05.240
know anything where you can.
366
00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:10.000
Yeah, you know, it is difficult territory and really important,
367
00:19:10.039 --> 00:19:12.240
and I think the important thing is you're approaching it
368
00:19:12.279 --> 00:19:15.319
with intentionality and openness and really trying to learn and
369
00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:16.519
being open and sensitive.
370
00:19:16.519 --> 00:19:18.599
And then, like you said, you do the best you can,
371
00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:19.920
right And I.
372
00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:21.799
Think that's what we want to, you know, build a
373
00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:26.000
culture of transparency and just you know, we publish the
374
00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:28.440
way we do it. You know, who our advisors are,
375
00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:31.480
how we've kind of come to this conclusions and we
376
00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:34.880
openly ask for feedback, you know, and I mean, we'll
377
00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:37.720
listen to anyone because we are trying to do this
378
00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:40.960
in a really thoughtful way. So you know, we are
379
00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:44.880
doing this, it's we're doing it in different context, you know,
380
00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:47.680
like the world is different now, and we're doing this
381
00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:51.920
work with different people that come from a different place
382
00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:54.279
with a different mindset, and so you would imagine that
383
00:19:54.680 --> 00:19:57.359
some things might have to shift to make it safe
384
00:19:57.400 --> 00:19:59.039
for them, to make it comfortable for them.
385
00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:01.759
You look at the this indigenous work was.
386
00:20:01.759 --> 00:20:05.440
Done, well, you weren't bringing foreigners in that had never
387
00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:08.480
met these people before. It was done within a community setting,
388
00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:11.279
and so there was a way that made sense in
389
00:20:11.319 --> 00:20:15.279
that context. Now we're bringing people in that you know,
390
00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:19.160
we've never met before and don't understand mysticism and maybe
391
00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:23.200
not don't have as natural of a connection with the
392
00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:26.680
spiritual world or with nature, and so you in some ways,
393
00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:31.400
I think it's required to make some shifts to meet
394
00:20:31.440 --> 00:20:33.799
people where they are so that they feel safe, so
395
00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:38.720
that they can embrace the experience and not have the resistance.
396
00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:41.319
You know. So the world's changing, I think we also
397
00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:42.440
need to be able.
398
00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:46.359
To change while honoring the past, but also realizing, you know,
399
00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:49.599
it's a different world today than it was ten fifty
400
00:20:49.640 --> 00:20:50.640
one hundred years ago.
401
00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:53.839
So I'd like to talk about some of the protocols
402
00:20:53.880 --> 00:20:56.920
you have in place to ensure safety. And you mentioned
403
00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:00.160
you to screen your applicants to the retreats, and you
404
00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:03.759
kind of screen out people with some more severe mental
405
00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:08.279
health challenges perhaps and because you're not doing a clinical program,
406
00:21:08.599 --> 00:21:10.839
but I'm also curious with your background as being a
407
00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:13.400
VET and how these have helped you. And of course
408
00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:15.839
there are a lot of vets suffering from PTSD at
409
00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:19.559
various levels of severity, and there has been this movement
410
00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:24.359
somewhat underground that's accessing psychoic medicine. Also, there's been some
411
00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:27.200
groups funding vets to go to countries where it is
412
00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:30.160
legal or where it's at least offered above board and
413
00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:34.759
sometimes very in strictly ceremonial settings or sometimes something more
414
00:21:34.839 --> 00:21:37.559
like your retreats or other similar retreats in various countries.
415
00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:41.240
And sadly, well we don't know, I mean, for a
416
00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:43.640
lot of it seems sad that the FDA didn't reschedule
417
00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:46.680
MDMA after the depth of the clinical evidence showing it's
418
00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:50.119
helping so many people and in particular bets suffering from PTSD.
419
00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:52.279
But maybe the science just isn't there yet and they
420
00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:54.160
needed to move more science. Maybe that'll be a good
421
00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:55.799
thing in the end, but nonetheless, in lie of the
422
00:21:55.799 --> 00:21:59.440
fact that this is still not available in legal therapeutic
423
00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:03.319
settings vets, I'm just curious about what like of vets
424
00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:06.440
are coming applying your program, what would screen them out,
425
00:22:06.519 --> 00:22:08.720
and then you know, and then starting from there and
426
00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:11.880
going with your safety protocols of how you ensure safe
427
00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:13.079
experiences for people.
428
00:22:13.559 --> 00:22:16.519
Yeah, we do have a lot of veterans that come down,
429
00:22:17.079 --> 00:22:19.720
you know, but not every veteran has kind of complex
430
00:22:19.839 --> 00:22:23.839
active PTSD, So they still need to meet our general
431
00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:27.559
screening criteria because again, we're doing this work in a group,
432
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:29.960
and so we need to manage for group dynamics. And then,
433
00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:32.960
you know, to your point earlier about you know, we're
434
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:36.160
doing this group approach, which we really believe in, but
435
00:22:36.440 --> 00:22:40.400
we're not doing one on one facilitator to guess ratio.
436
00:22:40.599 --> 00:22:42.200
So you just you need to be.
437
00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:45.799
Thoughtful about the kind of you know, level of severity
438
00:22:45.799 --> 00:22:47.920
of condition of the group as a whole. And so
439
00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:50.119
you know, the veterans still need to kind of meet
440
00:22:50.119 --> 00:22:53.039
our standards so that we feel comfortable where we're going
441
00:22:53.079 --> 00:22:55.240
to be able to hold the group well for everyone.
442
00:22:55.599 --> 00:22:58.480
With that said, we've done some veterans specific programs which
443
00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:02.160
are interesting. And so they're veterans that have TBI, which
444
00:23:02.200 --> 00:23:05.160
is traumatic brain injury. They need to be well enough,
445
00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:08.039
they need to be stable enough to meet our baseline criteria,
446
00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:11.160
but they also to be part of the program need
447
00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:13.400
to have experienced a traumatic brain injury. So we kind
448
00:23:13.400 --> 00:23:16.039
of screen out the bottom and at the top too.
449
00:23:16.359 --> 00:23:20.279
They need to kind of meet on both sides. And yeah,
450
00:23:20.279 --> 00:23:24.200
I we're working with the Veterans Mental Health Leadership Coalition
451
00:23:24.279 --> 00:23:26.920
and hopefully going to get something on the bout here
452
00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:31.160
in Texas to be able to do our approach, which
453
00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:35.799
is a teaching approach, long form nature based group approach,
454
00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:40.799
but for more severe indications with veterans legally in the
455
00:23:40.880 --> 00:23:44.720
United States, hopefully in the next year eighteen months. I'm
456
00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:48.200
really excited about that. We'll have to retool things. We'll
457
00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:51.920
need a higher facilitator to guest ratio, We'll need to
458
00:23:51.960 --> 00:23:55.119
make sure there's more aftercare things in place like this.
459
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:59.400
But I think that you know, for some veterans, there's
460
00:23:59.440 --> 00:24:02.839
a user benefit or an outcome benefit in doing this
461
00:24:02.920 --> 00:24:05.839
work together with other veterans that share a story and
462
00:24:05.960 --> 00:24:09.559
what you know, it's just watching veterans come through this together.
463
00:24:09.640 --> 00:24:11.759
It's just like, Okay, this is for many is how
464
00:24:11.799 --> 00:24:12.519
we should be doing this.
465
00:24:12.599 --> 00:24:15.960
And then, like you said, from a cost efficiency perspective,
466
00:24:15.960 --> 00:24:18.279
which does matter whether we want it to or not.
467
00:24:18.920 --> 00:24:22.359
You know, when you think about scale, there's a significant
468
00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:26.079
benefit there too, So I kind of for some indications
469
00:24:26.119 --> 00:24:28.240
and desired outcomes, I think this is just going to
470
00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:31.960
be a better model, you know. And then on the safety,
471
00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:34.799
I mean we think I mean, you know, me and
472
00:24:34.880 --> 00:24:39.000
my lead ops being Ralis was also an army officer.
473
00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:41.480
So and then we've both kind of done you know,
474
00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:44.880
corporate things where we've seen what I would call world
475
00:24:44.920 --> 00:24:46.079
class safety.
476
00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:47.759
Programs, right and they have a structure to them.
477
00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:50.559
You look at the whole life cycle of the experience
478
00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:54.359
or the mission or the piece of work that you're doing, and.
479
00:24:54.279 --> 00:24:56.440
You know, you think about the whole chain. So, like
480
00:24:56.480 --> 00:24:58.240
you said, we do screening.
481
00:24:58.640 --> 00:25:02.359
We're thoughtful about the com content and ensuring that you know,
482
00:25:02.359 --> 00:25:06.079
it's trauma informed and appropriate for people that are kind
483
00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:10.319
of coming through our experiences on site you know, we
484
00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:14.680
make sure that our facilitators are properly screened, properly trained,
485
00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:16.039
doing this work for.
486
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:19.319
The right reasons. We test the mushrooms, we know where
487
00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:21.039
they're coming from. Everything that we do.
488
00:25:21.079 --> 00:25:24.319
Is fully above board, so there's no gray area kind
489
00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:28.640
of considerations that need to be made. The facilitator to
490
00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:31.920
guest ratio is really important. We always have a nurse
491
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:35.359
on site. All of our teams are led by a
492
00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:37.480
psychotherapist or a doctor, although they're.
493
00:25:37.319 --> 00:25:39.759
Not operating in their medical capacity, but they.
494
00:25:39.640 --> 00:25:43.440
Have that training and understanding and you know that we
495
00:25:43.519 --> 00:25:46.279
really value that and our guests value that. We have
496
00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:50.559
all of the reporting structures in place, so if there's
497
00:25:51.160 --> 00:25:54.519
challenging outcomes, you know, we're pretty confident that we're getting
498
00:25:54.559 --> 00:25:55.240
that feedback.
499
00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:58.640
Our teams train on safety, we have safety.
500
00:25:58.319 --> 00:26:01.640
Protocols, you know, so all the things that you would
501
00:26:01.759 --> 00:26:07.559
expect in a professionally led business. For many other things,
502
00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:09.480
you know, we're trying to do at a really high level,
503
00:26:09.640 --> 00:26:10.400
and you know, it's.
504
00:26:10.279 --> 00:26:11.680
An executive priority.
505
00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:15.079
I mean, this is something that my obsolete van, it's
506
00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:18.039
one of her kind of key pieces of work, and
507
00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:22.079
we track data and we you know, work through this
508
00:26:22.119 --> 00:26:24.160
as a team and think about improvements we can make.
509
00:26:24.519 --> 00:26:27.000
We get feedback from our facilitators and so it's kind
510
00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:31.160
of this iterative learning intent to always make sure we're
511
00:26:31.160 --> 00:26:32.960
trying to get better as we go.
512
00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:36.720
You mentioned you also ty trade dosage based on your
513
00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:40.119
communications with the individual. Is there along with the mental
514
00:26:40.119 --> 00:26:43.119
health screening? Is there a physical health screening as well?
515
00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:46.880
Are you screening for heart conditions or different things or yeah.
516
00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:49.880
Yet, Yes we do. I mean it's all self reported,
517
00:26:50.440 --> 00:26:53.359
you know, we're not getting blood work. We're trusting people.
518
00:26:53.480 --> 00:26:56.079
We do a call with everyone though, and you know,
519
00:26:56.480 --> 00:26:59.000
I think that gives us an opportunity to feel someone
520
00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:01.359
out and see if it's a good Yeah, we're also
521
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:05.480
checking for medical conditions, and you know, some these experiences
522
00:27:05.480 --> 00:27:08.880
are I think, relative to many other things we do
523
00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:11.480
in our life. WITE safe, but there are risks, you know,
524
00:27:11.559 --> 00:27:13.960
and there's some cardiac risks, you know, So if people
525
00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:16.240
have heart conditions, that's a flag, you know, we need
526
00:27:16.279 --> 00:27:20.720
to investigate that more. The psychiatric conditions are certainly flags,
527
00:27:20.759 --> 00:27:23.319
you know, we need to ask more questions around that
528
00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:26.480
if anybody presents those so and if.
529
00:27:26.359 --> 00:27:29.640
You have any situations where someone you know, these psychic
530
00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:32.480
medicines can really open us up in lots of ways.
531
00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:37.240
And you know, we may, especially from maybe traumas from
532
00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:40.119
a long time ago, our childhood traumas, we may have
533
00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:44.480
managed to compartmentalize ourselves a bit and create internal structures
534
00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:46.599
that kind of keep these things at bay and we're
535
00:27:46.599 --> 00:27:49.680
able to function, and then a psychaic medicine could really
536
00:27:49.759 --> 00:27:53.000
open us up such that it's kind of destabilizing for
537
00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:55.160
a while and we're not able to quite put it
538
00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:57.359
back together in a way that was working for us before.
539
00:27:57.559 --> 00:27:59.920
Which ideal is going to learn to a higher level function,
540
00:28:00.319 --> 00:28:02.559
but there can be a transition that could be pretty rough.
541
00:28:02.599 --> 00:28:04.599
So I'm wondering if you run into that, and then
542
00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:08.880
how you support someone through ongoing integration online or where
543
00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:12.319
you refer people out to clinical resources and so forth.
544
00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:14.839
Yeah, yeah, that can happen for sure.
545
00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:18.160
And I think that, you know, our kind of challenging
546
00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:21.079
experiences from a number's perspective, is a.
547
00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:24.079
Couple percent to three percent of guests kind of come
548
00:28:24.119 --> 00:28:24.720
through and we'll have.
549
00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:28.240
A period after the experience where they're like, hey, I'm struggling,
550
00:28:28.680 --> 00:28:31.799
this is tough. I think many of them over time
551
00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:34.720
get to a lighter place, but like you said, we
552
00:28:34.759 --> 00:28:38.599
don't understand the mechanics really well. But you know, I
553
00:28:38.599 --> 00:28:42.680
think many experts would say something, you know, around that these.
554
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:45.240
Experiences have some way of bringing those things to the surface.
555
00:28:46.039 --> 00:28:48.400
But then there they are. You had them tucked away
556
00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:50.640
in a box and that was nice. They were probably
557
00:28:50.680 --> 00:28:53.440
seeping up into your life through your subconscious but they
558
00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:56.119
were boxed in and now they're right in front of you,
559
00:28:56.720 --> 00:29:00.480
and so that can be stabilizing. And we try and
560
00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:03.160
you know, again from the beginning, we talk to people
561
00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:04.920
through the entire program.
562
00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:07.119
Let people know that this is a possibility.
563
00:29:07.240 --> 00:29:10.920
And some folks know that, yes, I have something pretty
564
00:29:10.920 --> 00:29:15.440
significant from my childhood, but some folks have stuff from there,
565
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:18.559
you know, that is in them that they weren't even
566
00:29:18.599 --> 00:29:20.119
aware of that could come up, you know.
567
00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:22.319
So that's a risk, and we need to be able to.
568
00:29:22.440 --> 00:29:24.880
Tell people that these there's like the known risks, and
569
00:29:24.920 --> 00:29:28.119
then there's the ones that you know, we can't really
570
00:29:28.519 --> 00:29:30.559
identify if this person's going to have it or that
571
00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:32.200
person's going to happen, you know, And I think the
572
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:34.839
best we can do is be honest with people and
573
00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:38.160
tell people that these exist and then be there as
574
00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:42.680
a resource after if folks need some more support. The
575
00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:46.839
vast majority of our guests, over ninety percent, do really
576
00:29:46.880 --> 00:29:50.680
well with just the group integration kind of like touch approach.
577
00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:52.519
But if folks are coming.
578
00:29:52.279 --> 00:29:55.079
Through and know that they're going to need some support,
579
00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:57.160
or then halfway through realize they need it, then we
580
00:29:57.200 --> 00:30:00.920
can offer one on one remote support and then you know,
581
00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:05.680
we have a database that's growing of in person you know,
582
00:30:05.720 --> 00:30:07.759
referrals for folks to be able to kind of go
583
00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:12.079
get in geography care. We always recommend people if they
584
00:30:12.119 --> 00:30:18.880
have existing you know, medical support, psychiatric support, therapists, coaches,
585
00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:21.880
that they should be part of this decision making process
586
00:30:21.880 --> 00:30:23.559
and you shouldn't just go run off and do this
587
00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:26.079
on your own. Like, let's be open about what we're
588
00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:29.920
doing and so that everybody can be properly supported.
589
00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:34.440
Yeah, wonderful, And so you said, but incidences, whether it's
590
00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:39.079
some sort of significant destabilization following the retreat that somebody's
591
00:30:39.079 --> 00:30:41.519
really struggling, it's pretty small. It's in a two to
592
00:30:41.559 --> 00:30:43.440
three percent range or something like that.
593
00:30:43.759 --> 00:30:46.799
Yeah, yeah, it's small, but I mean that's a real number.
594
00:30:47.119 --> 00:30:47.920
You know, it's not.
595
00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:51.000
It's got to be really important that you're dealing with it.
596
00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:53.440
Sounds like you're addressing it in lots of ways. Yeah,
597
00:30:53.480 --> 00:30:56.160
and being transparent about the risk with people as they're
598
00:30:56.200 --> 00:31:00.000
as part of the intake and entry consideration process.
599
00:31:00.519 --> 00:31:00.960
That's right.
600
00:31:01.240 --> 00:31:05.079
Yeah, So let's talk a little bit about your facilitator training.
601
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:07.480
How do you train your facilitators and what's involved with
602
00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:10.839
that or are their prerequises before they begin working with you?
603
00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:12.359
Yeah, right now.
604
00:31:12.440 --> 00:31:15.240
I mean we envision having a whole kind of talent
605
00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:19.440
management program for facilitators, and we have a sister company
606
00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:24.279
called Beckley Academy that is doing this explicitly facilitator training
607
00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:27.039
for us. You know, we only have a few teams
608
00:31:27.079 --> 00:31:30.079
because we're only doing a couple different locations right now,
609
00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:33.680
are relatively small, and so we just had a We're
610
00:31:33.720 --> 00:31:38.400
fortunate that many facilitators really like Amanda and I think
611
00:31:38.440 --> 00:31:41.720
are really honored to continue her legacy, And it was
612
00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:45.200
always part of our approach to try and pay really
613
00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:46.200
competitive wages.
614
00:31:46.839 --> 00:31:49.480
So I think we had the luxury of being able.
615
00:31:49.279 --> 00:31:54.319
To select some of the best that had demonstrated previous
616
00:31:54.400 --> 00:31:59.880
experience in leading these group type sessions and also had relevance,
617
00:32:00.440 --> 00:32:04.079
whether that's in medicine or psychiatry or something.
618
00:32:04.119 --> 00:32:07.640
Where they were working on their bedside manner. If you will,
619
00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:11.319
you're there connection with other human beings. And so, I
620
00:32:11.319 --> 00:32:13.920
mean we're still trying to figure this out. I think
621
00:32:13.960 --> 00:32:15.119
we've learned that just.
622
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:19.240
Because someone was a great clinician and was able to
623
00:32:19.319 --> 00:32:24.680
use the mind and pathologize and solve problems and do
624
00:32:24.759 --> 00:32:29.440
that really well, doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to
625
00:32:29.480 --> 00:32:34.359
be a good spaceholder or group psychedelic facilitator. They can,
626
00:32:34.839 --> 00:32:37.720
but I think what we're seeing is sometimes that maybe
627
00:32:37.720 --> 00:32:41.160
there's even some unlearning that needs to happen. They're in
628
00:32:41.240 --> 00:32:44.720
the mind, I think, are the facilitators, I mean, the
629
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:47.599
lead facilitator. It's a tough it's a tough bar. You
630
00:32:47.640 --> 00:32:51.119
want someone that has a presence, can lead a team,
631
00:32:51.880 --> 00:32:55.920
can get the buy in and respect and from a
632
00:32:55.960 --> 00:33:00.279
diverse group of participants, but also knows how to be
633
00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:03.759
present and turn the mind off for a bit and
634
00:33:03.880 --> 00:33:09.839
just be nice, peaceful, loving energy and when the group
635
00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:14.680
dynamic becomes a little challenging, maybe doesn't get activated or have.
636
00:33:14.680 --> 00:33:15.839
Their central nervous system.
637
00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:19.400
And so that's iv are there's a few people that
638
00:33:19.640 --> 00:33:23.319
fit all of those. And then for our training we've
639
00:33:23.319 --> 00:33:27.400
had some Manuel Mischki Reads is arguably one of the
640
00:33:27.400 --> 00:33:30.480
world's leading trauma therapist, and she's been working with us
641
00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:34.319
quite some time and training our facilitators and teaching them
642
00:33:34.359 --> 00:33:38.559
techniques to stay balanced and resonant and how to identify
643
00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:41.960
potential challenges and guests that might arise before they arrive
644
00:33:42.039 --> 00:33:43.599
so that we can have a plan in place and
645
00:33:43.680 --> 00:33:47.079
be able to be ready for things. And so it's
646
00:33:47.160 --> 00:33:50.000
really being a good facilitator is a tough maybe not.
647
00:33:50.519 --> 00:33:53.279
It's not hard, but it's not easy. It's simple, but
648
00:33:53.359 --> 00:33:53.839
not easy.
649
00:33:54.519 --> 00:33:56.839
How large are retriees generally? How many producipants?
650
00:33:57.279 --> 00:34:02.319
About fifteen guests generally, and we'll have five facilitators plus
651
00:34:02.319 --> 00:34:06.160
a nurse, plus a host plus about facility staff generally.
652
00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:09.039
Yeah, so it's pretty good ratio there.
653
00:34:09.400 --> 00:34:13.159
Let's talk a little bit about how psycholic experiences like
654
00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:16.239
people can access to your retreat from your own experience,
655
00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:18.000
your own path, but also what you're seeing and the
656
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:20.760
people that come to your retreats, how this fits with
657
00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:26.639
integrates into their overall journey of optimizing their physical, mental,
658
00:34:26.840 --> 00:34:30.320
emotional health and wellbeing. If they do have a spiritual
659
00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:33.239
context or sense of spiritual path, how it integrates into that.
660
00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:37.679
Do people often come back for repeat retreats?
661
00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:40.239
Is this something people you know are going to be
662
00:34:40.280 --> 00:34:42.280
doing on a regular basis, or is this something they
663
00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:44.840
can have this experience and then that fuels their kind
664
00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:48.639
of journey to optimal health and wellbeing and so forth.
665
00:34:49.039 --> 00:34:53.079
Yeah, it's so fascinating because in some ways there's some
666
00:34:53.239 --> 00:34:56.840
themes and then I think everyone has, you know, really
667
00:34:56.960 --> 00:35:00.480
unique experiences, but many people come through. I think part
668
00:35:00.880 --> 00:35:04.760
of it, I think is again from the neuroplasticity or
669
00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:08.599
this increase of potentiality for change. It allows people to
670
00:35:09.159 --> 00:35:11.480
break bad habits and put in some new ways of
671
00:35:11.559 --> 00:35:13.559
being and I think just that on its own is
672
00:35:13.599 --> 00:35:16.719
super meaningful. And for me, you know, sometimes I try
673
00:35:16.760 --> 00:35:19.360
and just simplify it. I'm just trying to hopefully get
674
00:35:19.400 --> 00:35:22.320
people to adopt a meditation practice. I just know for
675
00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:24.760
years prior it's really hard to get people to do
676
00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:27.400
it because it's a bit boring at first and it's
677
00:35:27.400 --> 00:35:29.519
hard to articulate the benefits.
678
00:35:29.880 --> 00:35:32.639
But after a psychedelic experience, people get it.
679
00:35:32.679 --> 00:35:34.960
They kind of into it why they would want to
680
00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:37.960
continue going. And so we have a lot of people
681
00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:41.360
that I think go from not meditating regularly to meditating regularly,
682
00:35:41.800 --> 00:35:44.519
and then there's tremendous benefit in that I have a
683
00:35:44.519 --> 00:35:47.039
lot of guests come through and we'll then report back
684
00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:49.800
to us. I just have no urge to drink anymore. No, definitely,
685
00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:54.039
just no interest in alcohol anymore. Tremendous benefit there. We'll
686
00:35:54.039 --> 00:35:57.199
have guests come through and say things like I just
687
00:35:57.320 --> 00:36:00.559
feel like I appreciate my life on a more regular basis.
688
00:36:00.599 --> 00:36:03.559
I have moments where I'm in awe of the beauty
689
00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:05.880
around me and how fortunate I am. And I knew
690
00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:09.199
it before, but now it's like coming at me, you know,
691
00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:10.519
multiple times a day.
692
00:36:10.719 --> 00:36:12.840
So there's all this kind of quality of life.
693
00:36:12.800 --> 00:36:16.639
That can seem to be really improved for people after
694
00:36:16.679 --> 00:36:17.679
these experiences.
695
00:36:18.400 --> 00:36:19.880
And that was the second part of your question.
696
00:36:20.360 --> 00:36:22.320
I asked if people often come back for.
697
00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:25.599
Oh right, yes, some do. Some do. We've had quite
698
00:36:25.639 --> 00:36:27.519
a few. We've had some folks come back on their
699
00:36:27.599 --> 00:36:28.239
third Now.
700
00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:31.519
Yeah, I think we have something around a ten seven
701
00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:34.199
to ten percent return rate, and so I think for
702
00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:38.719
some it'll be an annual event or every other year.
703
00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:42.000
Or something like that, you know, opportunity to.
704
00:36:41.360 --> 00:36:45.880
Reconnect reset because even you know, these experiences It's not
705
00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:47.559
like they're at magic and then all of a sudden
706
00:36:47.559 --> 00:36:49.320
you're this different person forever.
707
00:36:49.360 --> 00:36:50.800
I mean, life keeps coming at.
708
00:36:50.679 --> 00:36:53.320
You, you know, and we change over time, and so
709
00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:54.920
you've got to keep coming.
710
00:36:55.000 --> 00:36:55.760
You've got to in some.
711
00:36:55.679 --> 00:36:58.039
Ways keep coming back to the practices, and you know,
712
00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:01.360
part of it's always about resetting. The other thing that
713
00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:04.159
I think is really beautiful that a lot of people
714
00:37:04.280 --> 00:37:08.360
report is just this sense, this kind of beyond mind,
715
00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:13.440
kind of non rational mind knowingness of the interconnectedness of everything,
716
00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:16.320
you know. And for me from a physics perspective, I
717
00:37:16.320 --> 00:37:18.559
think if you go if you go in chemistry, you
718
00:37:18.559 --> 00:37:21.519
go biology, you go deep enough, there is something, there's
719
00:37:21.559 --> 00:37:24.000
this ether that seems to be connecting us all.
720
00:37:24.639 --> 00:37:25.360
And if you.
721
00:37:25.320 --> 00:37:28.440
Think we're really all in this together and are all
722
00:37:28.519 --> 00:37:31.800
part of this same thing, then I think you a
723
00:37:31.840 --> 00:37:34.639
lot of times will make decisions differently, you know, you'll
724
00:37:34.639 --> 00:37:36.000
treat people a little bit differently.
725
00:37:36.480 --> 00:37:38.360
So that's really special too.
726
00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:41.039
How long are the sessions generally, and they retreat the
727
00:37:41.039 --> 00:37:42.440
psychologic medicine.
728
00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:45.480
Sessions four to six hours, And.
729
00:37:45.480 --> 00:37:47.480
You mentioned a word reset, And I think in many
730
00:37:47.519 --> 00:37:51.880
ways these psycho experiences can be like a psychological neurobiological
731
00:37:51.920 --> 00:37:54.719
reset of sorts, and again we don't completely understand the
732
00:37:54.760 --> 00:37:57.800
mechanisms of healing and so forth. There there does seem
733
00:37:57.840 --> 00:38:01.360
to be some association with increasing no oplasticity. But I know,
734
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:05.599
in terms of you mentioned habits and replacing not so
735
00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:08.119
healthy habits, putting in place new habits for a health
736
00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:12.760
and wellbeing that addictions have been addressed by psychic medicines,
737
00:38:13.199 --> 00:38:15.920
I know I will gain in particular, seems to be
738
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:18.760
a powerful reset button for many, even suffering with severe
739
00:38:18.840 --> 00:38:22.199
heroin addiction. I have a close friend that been a
740
00:38:22.199 --> 00:38:25.639
meditation teacher and an addictions counselor in North America his
741
00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:28.199
whole career, but then retired and he's been an I
742
00:38:28.280 --> 00:38:32.199
became clinic in Mexico as a concert supporting people visiting
743
00:38:32.199 --> 00:38:33.719
that clinic, and a lot of people that come there
744
00:38:33.719 --> 00:38:36.519
are suffering from severe addiction, and they walk out with
745
00:38:36.519 --> 00:38:38.840
at least a window of a window of opportunity for
746
00:38:38.920 --> 00:38:40.360
change because the craving has.
747
00:38:40.280 --> 00:38:41.840
Gone at least for a period of time.
748
00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:42.719
Exactly.
749
00:38:42.840 --> 00:38:46.199
Yeah, And sometimes that's all we need, is that the space.
750
00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:51.320
You know, I'm really excited about I began. Now there's risks,
751
00:38:51.599 --> 00:38:54.039
you know, of course, but I think, you know, we
752
00:38:54.199 --> 00:38:55.920
need to look at relative risks and need to be
753
00:38:55.960 --> 00:38:59.360
compared to the risks of a lot of medicines that
754
00:38:59.400 --> 00:39:01.440
we get from the existing system.
755
00:39:01.639 --> 00:39:01.840
You know.
756
00:39:01.880 --> 00:39:04.079
I think there's a real argument that we should be
757
00:39:04.400 --> 00:39:07.079
at least researching more of these compounds. You know, And
758
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:10.119
if you listen to the researchers talk about ibegan, it's
759
00:39:10.119 --> 00:39:14.519
so fascinating. From a pharmacological perspective, We've never seen anything
760
00:39:14.719 --> 00:39:16.920
like it. It has so many different mechanisms of action
761
00:39:17.559 --> 00:39:21.880
for opioid use disorder or PTSD. I've seen veterans go
762
00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:27.079
in and get out of bed, severe alcoholism, life in shambles,
763
00:39:27.320 --> 00:39:30.679
come out five days later, they look different, and they
764
00:39:30.719 --> 00:39:32.320
go home and they hug their kids and.
765
00:39:32.280 --> 00:39:33.960
They start a completely different life.
766
00:39:34.039 --> 00:39:37.199
Now that doesn't happen for everyone, but for some people
767
00:39:37.239 --> 00:39:40.519
it is a radical positive change.
768
00:39:40.639 --> 00:39:42.760
It's you know, really exciting.
769
00:39:43.039 --> 00:39:43.719
Yeah, it should be.
770
00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:46.800
One of the risks with abigat is a cardiovascular risk
771
00:39:46.920 --> 00:39:49.360
with elevated heart rates and so forth and blood pressure.
772
00:39:49.400 --> 00:39:53.880
But exactly so, where do you see this work going,
773
00:39:54.199 --> 00:39:57.440
both for the Beckley retreats, but for this whole field
774
00:39:57.559 --> 00:40:01.639
of both the more clinical psycholica sistant psychotherapy, whether it's
775
00:40:01.639 --> 00:40:04.599
an individual or group that may evolve, or just the
776
00:40:04.719 --> 00:40:08.360
use of psychoic medicines and healing retreats like yours, or
777
00:40:08.800 --> 00:40:11.480
personal evolution, spiritual evolution kind of work. How do you
778
00:40:11.519 --> 00:40:14.599
see this? You know, were kind of interesting this. I
779
00:40:14.679 --> 00:40:17.320
grew up in the sixties and I was very active
780
00:40:17.320 --> 00:40:20.840
in the whole counterculture era and both with all the
781
00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:23.920
synthetic psychaolics, and I lived Improved for quite a number
782
00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:26.079
of years, very involved in plant medicines there back in
783
00:40:26.119 --> 00:40:28.960
the early seventies, and then I was away from it
784
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:31.360
for a long time, and then I began really noticing
785
00:40:31.360 --> 00:40:33.760
how this whole new movement was emerging with some are
786
00:40:33.760 --> 00:40:35.119
calling a psychiatic renaissance.
787
00:40:35.159 --> 00:40:37.920
So it's quite interesting to see the world we're in today, and.
788
00:40:37.920 --> 00:40:40.239
I just wonder where you see the work going, and
789
00:40:40.239 --> 00:40:43.440
in particular your vision for the Beckley Retreats.
790
00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:44.880
Yeah, I think that.
791
00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:48.559
You know, in a few years down the road, you'll
792
00:40:48.599 --> 00:40:52.079
be able to go into a doctor's office and depending
793
00:40:52.119 --> 00:40:56.519
on what your presentation is or indication is, you'll be
794
00:40:56.599 --> 00:41:00.960
able to receive some type of psychiatric psychedelic medicine under
795
00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:02.079
a doctor's care.
796
00:41:02.199 --> 00:41:03.920
And I think that for some.
797
00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:07.800
People and for some indications, it's going to be significantly
798
00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:09.400
better than a lot of the tools we have now,
799
00:41:09.400 --> 00:41:10.639
and that's really positive.
800
00:41:11.079 --> 00:41:12.480
And I hope.
801
00:41:12.199 --> 00:41:15.840
That there'll be more well people that maybe don't need
802
00:41:15.880 --> 00:41:19.320
to go do it under a doctor's care, exploring their
803
00:41:19.320 --> 00:41:22.239
own spirituality and learning how to take better care.
804
00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:27.000
Of themselves through programs like we're doing. And I hope.
805
00:41:26.840 --> 00:41:31.880
Over time we can figure out a way to collaborate
806
00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:37.159
and work together and use some of the new technological
807
00:41:37.159 --> 00:41:39.320
tools that are coming online to kind of do some
808
00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:42.079
of the back office and some of the things that
809
00:41:42.119 --> 00:41:44.079
are required to run the business, but do it efficiently
810
00:41:44.119 --> 00:41:44.400
so that.
811
00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:45.920
We can get the costs way down.
812
00:41:46.440 --> 00:41:47.800
And I think that if you look at like a
813
00:41:48.079 --> 00:41:53.199
passion a model where there's a bit of an apprenticeship
814
00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:57.960
volunteer model and the costs you're quite low, I think
815
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:02.159
that we'll have something like that communities where communities are.
816
00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:05.000
Supporting each other. And you know, I hope we can
817
00:42:05.039 --> 00:42:07.320
get some old camp sites.
818
00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:11.480
Or farm land or something that are near major metropolitan
819
00:42:11.519 --> 00:42:14.159
areas but outside of the city so people can get
820
00:42:14.199 --> 00:42:17.920
into nature in Detox. But you know, maybe we're growing
821
00:42:17.960 --> 00:42:22.280
our own organic regenerative food there and folks go from
822
00:42:22.559 --> 00:42:24.920
the metropolitan areas and it just becomes a normal thing
823
00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:28.599
to go once or twice a year out into nature
824
00:42:28.920 --> 00:42:32.280
with some of your friends and reconnect and do some
825
00:42:32.360 --> 00:42:35.880
of this work together and come back out clean slate,
826
00:42:36.159 --> 00:42:38.320
go back, get back to life a little bit, and
827
00:42:38.440 --> 00:42:42.320
that becomes a just kind of new normal way of being.
828
00:42:42.360 --> 00:42:43.679
That's kind of what I'm hopeful for.
829
00:42:44.320 --> 00:42:47.239
So, HARKing back to an earlier part of our conversation,
830
00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:50.039
it sounds like what you envisions is becoming more about
831
00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:52.599
the way these medicines have been held in some indigenous
832
00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:54.920
communities where it's much more part of their way of life,
833
00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:57.599
and it's hell in a community and community setting, and
834
00:42:57.639 --> 00:43:00.880
it's not some extraordinary weird thing somebody goes off and
835
00:43:00.920 --> 00:43:03.360
does somewhere in an isolated exciting but it becomes more
836
00:43:03.440 --> 00:43:05.280
part of our life in our communities.
837
00:43:05.719 --> 00:43:06.360
Yeah, I hope.
838
00:43:06.360 --> 00:43:09.440
So, you know, with these natural plants that have been
839
00:43:09.559 --> 00:43:14.400
used for so many years, I understand why we need
840
00:43:14.840 --> 00:43:18.639
regulation around drugs, and of course, you know, but in
841
00:43:18.679 --> 00:43:22.440
some ways I also think that if adults are giving
842
00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:26.320
all the right information and understand the risks, that we
843
00:43:26.320 --> 00:43:30.480
should be able to use these plants in community as
844
00:43:30.519 --> 00:43:34.199
a human right, you know. So I think things are changing.
845
00:43:34.239 --> 00:43:36.280
I think it's trending that direction. But yeah, I think
846
00:43:36.320 --> 00:43:38.639
that we need to get back to a better relationship
847
00:43:38.679 --> 00:43:41.920
with these sacred plants and with each other and with nature.
848
00:43:42.039 --> 00:43:45.039
And I think we're hopefully heading in the right direction.
849
00:43:45.239 --> 00:43:46.880
So just about the end of our time. And they
850
00:43:46.920 --> 00:43:49.719
always been illuminating and incredibly helpful and rich.
851
00:43:49.679 --> 00:43:51.760
And you know, coming back to kind of our core
852
00:43:51.840 --> 00:43:55.840
theme today, as you're identifying facilitators, you're bringing your work
853
00:43:55.840 --> 00:43:58.039
who are maybe already have a lot of experience, or
854
00:43:58.079 --> 00:43:59.400
you bring on people who are going to be in
855
00:43:59.440 --> 00:44:02.960
your training and develop their experience. If there's kind of
856
00:44:02.960 --> 00:44:07.440
a key ethical context that people have kind of where
857
00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:09.719
who they really are, where they're coming from, what their
858
00:44:09.800 --> 00:44:12.480
motivations are, and so forth, what are you looking for?
859
00:44:12.960 --> 00:44:15.119
Selflessness maybe is a big one.
860
00:44:15.480 --> 00:44:18.239
So I think that there's a danger to this work
861
00:44:18.280 --> 00:44:22.760
where it becomes just another badge of honor. Right, I'm
862
00:44:22.760 --> 00:44:26.280
more spiritual than you. It's a way to separate. I'm
863
00:44:26.280 --> 00:44:29.400
more connected than you. And I think that if folks
864
00:44:29.480 --> 00:44:32.800
have that mindset and they're putting themselves on a pedestal.
865
00:44:32.840 --> 00:44:35.440
It's just a spiritual pedestal, or and an enlightened pedestal.
866
00:44:35.480 --> 00:44:37.440
I think that's a big problem and that has a
867
00:44:37.960 --> 00:44:39.599
that can really negatively.
868
00:44:39.119 --> 00:44:40.960
Affect people's experiences.
869
00:44:41.000 --> 00:44:44.159
So we call it hollow bamboo. We're looking for people
870
00:44:44.239 --> 00:44:46.840
that have done enough work and kind of gotten out
871
00:44:46.840 --> 00:44:50.519
of their own way, and it's not about them anymore.
872
00:44:50.519 --> 00:44:53.360
It's about helping people, and it's a really it comes
873
00:44:53.400 --> 00:44:55.800
from a place of compassion and ease.
874
00:44:55.599 --> 00:44:58.159
And they're not trying to climb a mountain.
875
00:44:58.679 --> 00:45:02.559
Quality well, certainly a service orientation and genuinely compassionate service
876
00:45:02.599 --> 00:45:07.079
orientation and some quality of you know, selflessness. And one
877
00:45:07.079 --> 00:45:11.719
of the risks with any practices or substances that provide
878
00:45:11.800 --> 00:45:15.800
trans personal experiences missile experiences, there can be a kind
879
00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:18.800
of inflation, an ego inflation, that can happen, and it
880
00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:20.599
could happen to any of us. Questions, Then do we
881
00:45:20.679 --> 00:45:22.400
find a way to work through it and integrate it
882
00:45:22.440 --> 00:45:24.679
and not get caught up in that? But it's there,
883
00:45:24.760 --> 00:45:27.360
we don't. It's probably better to look forth than to
884
00:45:27.400 --> 00:45:30.679
pretend it's not there. These experiences really can lead to
885
00:45:30.679 --> 00:45:33.400
a kind of ego inflation, right, Yeah.
886
00:45:33.239 --> 00:45:33.599
They can.
887
00:45:33.920 --> 00:45:37.280
I think we're seeing that broadly in the field. So yeah,
888
00:45:37.280 --> 00:45:40.199
I guess it's a self awareness too, and humility, right,
889
00:45:40.760 --> 00:45:42.639
I mean you can get into that. I'm humbler the
890
00:45:42.679 --> 00:45:44.559
new conversation too, you know what I mean.
891
00:45:44.679 --> 00:45:48.719
So it's us trying to get you know, being honest
892
00:45:48.760 --> 00:45:49.920
with yourself. We're humans.
893
00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:53.079
We all have the light in the dark, you know,
894
00:45:53.119 --> 00:45:54.880
We're all capable of great things, we're.
895
00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:56.239
All crepable of terrible things.
896
00:45:56.280 --> 00:45:59.079
We need to, you know, be in this state where
897
00:45:59.079 --> 00:46:01.840
we're being on us with ourselves and surrounded by people
898
00:46:01.880 --> 00:46:05.360
that are giving us honest feedback, right, and we're not
899
00:46:05.400 --> 00:46:08.679
in environments where we're only getting feedback that is adding
900
00:46:08.760 --> 00:46:11.599
to our you know, maybe not as good tendencies.
901
00:46:11.639 --> 00:46:14.159
But yeah, we're continuing to learn.
902
00:46:14.760 --> 00:46:15.480
I wonder about.
903
00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:17.400
Yeah, there's always work to do for all of us,
904
00:46:17.440 --> 00:46:20.960
and the power and pastily addressing some of these risks
905
00:46:20.960 --> 00:46:23.559
of inflation or kind of getting off track the pure
906
00:46:23.679 --> 00:46:27.719
culture among your facilitators. I once interviewed I think Saki
907
00:46:27.800 --> 00:46:31.360
Sontarelli for one of our mindfulness summits, who was kind
908
00:46:31.400 --> 00:46:35.119
of John Kevinton's right hand person. They both developed an
909
00:46:35.239 --> 00:46:37.880
MBSR model and the Center for Mindfluance that you mass
910
00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:39.039
and now Brown University.
911
00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:42.480
But I think this could have an interview with John Orsaki.
912
00:46:42.519 --> 00:46:45.760
But they were speaking about for many, many years of
913
00:46:45.800 --> 00:46:48.280
that work and when they're at UMass the core team
914
00:46:48.400 --> 00:46:51.400
at the Center for Mindfulness that was developing MBSR and
915
00:46:51.480 --> 00:46:55.360
expanding that into the movement. It became they did regular
916
00:46:55.760 --> 00:47:01.559
weekly feedback sessions with each other. And we're pretty you know, compassionately, ruthless.
917
00:47:01.559 --> 00:47:03.920
They spoke their truth, They called each other out when
918
00:47:03.960 --> 00:47:07.199
they saw stuff and in compassionate ways. And so I'm
919
00:47:07.199 --> 00:47:10.719
wondering about the power of pure culture among your facilitators
920
00:47:10.719 --> 00:47:13.679
and so forth and the teams to help because we
921
00:47:13.719 --> 00:47:16.119
all need help to keep all help each other stay
922
00:47:16.119 --> 00:47:17.000
on track, right.
923
00:47:17.119 --> 00:47:20.840
Yeah, exactly, And you know, I think it's part of
924
00:47:20.840 --> 00:47:21.519
all crops are.
925
00:47:21.519 --> 00:47:24.079
Now and we're continuing to try and reinforce this.
926
00:47:24.639 --> 00:47:27.880
You know, we create the space to have those discussions
927
00:47:27.920 --> 00:47:31.280
with facilitators. We have ways to give one on one
928
00:47:31.320 --> 00:47:34.119
feedback and collect consolidated feedback.
929
00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:36.320
We also regularly message.
930
00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:39.519
To our facilitators that we're human beings and there's going
931
00:47:39.599 --> 00:47:41.800
to be sometimes some differences in the way people think
932
00:47:41.800 --> 00:47:44.480
things should be done and as adults, we need to
933
00:47:44.800 --> 00:47:47.679
take that person aside and discuss that with them, and
934
00:47:47.719 --> 00:47:49.639
that's okay, and there's going to be some conflicts. So
935
00:47:49.679 --> 00:47:53.480
I think it's from a you know, an organization perspective,
936
00:47:53.639 --> 00:47:57.719
just like messaging what we expect of our leaders, you know,
937
00:47:57.840 --> 00:47:59.039
and reinforcing that.
938
00:47:59.679 --> 00:48:01.280
Yeah, I think that we're you know, we're doing a
939
00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:01.840
really good job.
940
00:48:01.880 --> 00:48:03.679
I mean, we're really fortunate, I think guess, you know,
941
00:48:03.719 --> 00:48:06.840
also to have it's just relatively small team and the
942
00:48:06.840 --> 00:48:09.119
facilitators that we have been doing this for a long time,
943
00:48:09.199 --> 00:48:10.880
so I think there is a lot of self awareness
944
00:48:10.880 --> 00:48:13.320
there and this has comes pretty natural. It'll become more
945
00:48:13.360 --> 00:48:16.159
challenging as we you know, grow and bring more people
946
00:48:16.199 --> 00:48:18.199
into the organization. But I think we're doing a pretty
947
00:48:18.199 --> 00:48:20.400
good job of it now inviting that honesty. And I
948
00:48:20.400 --> 00:48:22.639
think it's also important in this work too, is like
949
00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:27.880
it really is this risk of the ego inflation. And
950
00:48:27.920 --> 00:48:31.320
I think it's just like you we tell guests the
951
00:48:31.440 --> 00:48:35.760
risks of different outcomes, you know, talking with our facilitators
952
00:48:35.800 --> 00:48:40.079
about the possibility of thinking that you're the chosen one
953
00:48:40.320 --> 00:48:43.280
all of a sudden because you've had this download and
954
00:48:43.639 --> 00:48:46.480
that actually happens to a lot of people, and there
955
00:48:46.559 --> 00:48:48.559
can be some truth in that, but you need to also,
956
00:48:49.079 --> 00:48:52.000
you know, bring it back to the earth and realize that,
957
00:48:52.280 --> 00:48:54.880
you know, every insight that you get might not be
958
00:48:54.960 --> 00:48:56.639
the truth, and you need to have some balance and
959
00:48:56.679 --> 00:48:59.559
you need to you know, stay grounded while you're where
960
00:48:59.599 --> 00:49:01.840
you work with these really powerful experiences.
961
00:49:02.400 --> 00:49:04.519
Sounds like you all are doing a very good and
962
00:49:04.559 --> 00:49:06.840
thoughtful job with all of this. And the question you
963
00:49:06.960 --> 00:49:09.760
just kind of pointed out, and one of the questions
964
00:49:09.760 --> 00:49:11.719
that we're always looking at in the summit is this
965
00:49:11.800 --> 00:49:14.159
field grows, how do we take all this to scale?
966
00:49:14.519 --> 00:49:17.199
And it's going to become more and more challenging to
967
00:49:17.280 --> 00:49:20.519
preserve the integrity as we go to scale, because just
968
00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:23.280
the dynamics of time and money, the training might get
969
00:49:23.320 --> 00:49:25.440
a little thinner, they're quite you know, standards could get
970
00:49:25.440 --> 00:49:27.280
a little thinner, and we really don't want that to happen.
971
00:49:27.320 --> 00:49:29.360
We can't afford to have that happen really in order
972
00:49:29.360 --> 00:49:31.239
to keep this safe and effective for people.
973
00:49:31.320 --> 00:49:32.760
So that's an important discussion.
974
00:49:33.360 --> 00:49:37.639
It is, and you know, we're humans and we need
975
00:49:37.679 --> 00:49:40.239
to do everything we can and it's probably a bit
976
00:49:40.360 --> 00:49:42.360
naive to think we're going to be able to prevent
977
00:49:42.880 --> 00:49:47.480
this movement from being immune to the natural human tendencies,
978
00:49:47.519 --> 00:49:50.039
and there beings and challenges and bad outcomes along the way,
979
00:49:50.119 --> 00:49:50.440
and you.
980
00:49:50.360 --> 00:49:51.840
Know, we just we got to do the best we
981
00:49:51.920 --> 00:49:53.639
can and keep moving forward.
982
00:49:54.079 --> 00:49:54.280
Yeah.
983
00:49:54.280 --> 00:49:57.840
Absolutely, not to excuse any mistakes, but obviously we can't
984
00:49:57.840 --> 00:50:01.280
do it perfectly. And even one of the objections brought
985
00:50:01.360 --> 00:50:04.400
up in the by the FDA Advisory Committee had to
986
00:50:04.400 --> 00:50:05.960
do with some inappropriate behaviors.
987
00:50:06.320 --> 00:50:08.840
But this goes on in psychotherapy all the time.
988
00:50:09.119 --> 00:50:11.519
That's a well established field, and there are mistakes and
989
00:50:12.159 --> 00:50:14.599
regulatory bodies to deal with that, and hopefully it gets
990
00:50:14.639 --> 00:50:15.000
dealt with.
991
00:50:15.480 --> 00:50:18.480
But you know, it happens in medicine, my human beings,
992
00:50:18.719 --> 00:50:21.639
it happens in law, it happens in the military, it
993
00:50:21.679 --> 00:50:24.199
happens in the police departments. And again, like you said,
994
00:50:24.239 --> 00:50:26.880
like not to minimize it. We need to take it seriously,
995
00:50:26.960 --> 00:50:29.800
but you know we also need to you know, do
996
00:50:29.880 --> 00:50:30.360
it with.
997
00:50:30.360 --> 00:50:34.960
An open mind and realizing that you know that we're humans. Well,
998
00:50:35.000 --> 00:50:37.280
thank you very much, Neil, Thank you, it's so good
999
00:50:37.280 --> 00:50:39.800
to see you. Absolutely, it was a real pleasure, really
1000
00:50:39.880 --> 00:50:41.199
nice to spend some time together.
1001
00:50:41.960 --> 00:50:42.800
Thank you, and be well.
1002
00:50:43.039 --> 00:50:43.760
Thank you to see it,