Why Great Leaders Listen Before They Lead

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The problem is, as business owners, yeah, we're right a lot.
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That is a problem because the times that we're not right, it's bad, it's bad.
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And because we're typically consistently right or at least looking at right.
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Yeah.
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When we're unwilling to listen to the other side.
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Stubborn.
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Oh yeah.
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Stubborn.
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That's an excellent way to put that.
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Mhm.
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Um, if you want to figure out how to get better and more information, stay tuned.
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She's the CEO.
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He's the marketing and operations guy.
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If it's broken, you need the business fix.
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I have an example.
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Yeah.
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That's not polarizing.
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Polarizing.
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Okay.
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But this is kind of where this topic came from for me.
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Okay.
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The death penalty.
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And I enjoy it as an example because it's not.
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There's some people that are polarized on it, but it's not it's not a it's not a super hot topic for a lot of people.
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No, it's not a hot button where you're instantly going to send someone like flaming hair running down the street.
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Mhm.
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Um, it was interesting.
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I was of the mindset for I am okay.
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And someone gave me the stats.
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I sat down and listened to them.
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Yeah.
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And they said, hey, did you know that it's between two to three percent of the people we have executed?
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Yeah.
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Have been innocent.
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Mhm.
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And I'm like, well, that doesn't sound like a big deal.
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Two to three percent error on stuff is pretty good unless you're in that two to three percent.
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Exactly.
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Then it's a pretty big deal.
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And when they mention that, I'm like, oh, crap, I have to start listening to the other side of the story more because once again, I was a staunch fry em kind of guy for a long time.
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Yeah.
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Um, that was the moment where I was like, oh, I need to listen a little better.
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Yeah, there's a yeah.
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For those of you who are like, I want to do research.
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The Ohio Innocence Project down in Cincinnati, University of Cincinnati does some amazing work.
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They really do.
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And I, yep, one hundred percent.
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That's where my perspective changed significantly, in part because of my husband.
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So yeah, no, that's and it's interesting how just listening to that side of it.
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Yeah.
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Um, and so many people now, we, it took me a long time to become secure enough to listen to, to hear rather than listening to respond.
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Oh, yeah.
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Because I always felt I had to prove myself and all this other stuff, but well, that's largely what we're going to talk about today because do you feel like today's world is polarized?
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Maybe a little bit, tiny bit.
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I mean, just a tiny bit.
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Not a lot.
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Just it's just a sliver, right?
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Right.
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Yeah.
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If you could see my facial expressions.
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Audience.
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Yeah! Yeah.
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Chrissy.
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Looks like someone just smacked her in the face.
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Oh, gosh.
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Um, the problem is, is I've seen that this has carried over into business, and it leads to misinformation, hidden risks, and a team that will stop sharing.
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This is the critical part.
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A team's going to stop sharing bad news because they know as the leader you aren't you ain't listening.
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No. And your culture will die really fast.
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It's not a slow, painful death.
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It's like hit a brick wall.
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Yeah.
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Immediately jumped off the cliff.
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Yeah.
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It's no parachute.
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It's gone.
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You did the whole Tom cruise mission Impossible thing with the dirt bike.
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Just.
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And you did not make it?
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No, you did not make it.
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You were a greasy spot.
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Yeah.
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Chrissy's getting graphic.
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That being said, like, this week we want to talk about the reactive listening compared with intentional listening.
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Yeah.
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Um, this is core to leadership.
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Yes.
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Um, as a leader, you're not there to be, right?
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No. So many of us are told that, though.
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And if you're so many of us are also told if you're not right as a leader, you're not a leader.
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And that's so wrong.
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It's it is so wrong.
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But it was the leadership principle I was initially brought up through.
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Oh, same.
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And so yeah, you can't show any weakness.
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Um, which was considered being wrong.
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We talked about psychological safety.
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Um, how does like a leader's ability to listen, to learn?
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Yeah.
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Um, like if they have that inability to hear people, how does that erode safety for the team?
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Yeah.
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So I think a lot of leaders think they're listening, but they aren't.
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Instead, they're just they're, they think they're listening.
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They're just waiting to talk.
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So they're just, they're not listening.
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They're waiting their turn.
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I've been in so many meetings, I think to say meetings and dealing with people, I would say it's also sometimes when you're dealing with when your kids are preschoolers and you're talking and then all of a sudden they start immediately.
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So I feel like a lot of times as leaders, we model that behavior too, which is not okay.
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You see it when someone's on the edge of their seat and it's like, I got this, I got this, yes.
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No. And teams can feel that difference immediately between a leader that's actually listening and a leader who's just waiting to talk.
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Yes, it's very easy.
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So I like to break it down into, you know, you listen, you learn and then you lead.
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The three L's.
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The three L's.
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Listen, learn.
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Lead.
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We need to bring the letter people back.
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I you know what?
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I will get them out of my purse.
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They're my they're my other purse.
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I took them from my kitchen, from my refrigerator.
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I was going to bring them and I forgot, um, because I brought a different bag.
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So listening, listening is not hearing.
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Listening is creating space.
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Okay.
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And I know that there's going to be some times where people are like, this is gonna sound really woo woo and like, we're in therapy.
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Yes we are.
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We're gonna just learn the things today.
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Okay, so sit down, drive in your car and listen to me.
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All right.
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Listening is not hearing.
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Listening is creating space.
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If I interrupt, if I defend, if I redirect too quickly, what I am really telling the team is I don't actually want your input.
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I want confirmation, and I really just want to move on to the next thing.
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And that's not okay.
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Because if I really want people to listen to me, I'm going to listen to them.
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And so when we when we do that, when we, when we don't take the time and create space to listen, that's when safety drops.
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So if you're an interrupter, we've talked about this in other podcasts, you count to three when someone takes a breath.
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Okay, I know that my brain works really fast and I know that I am sometimes that person who wants to talk quickly because I want to make sure that you hear what I have to say to stop it.
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So I'm saying that to me, Chrissy, especially when you're having a disagreement or an in-depth discussion with your spouse, at least count to three, okay?
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Ask them if they have anything else to say in a nice way.
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Don't say.
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Do you have anything else to say?
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Don't do that.
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Are you done yet?
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Are you done yet?
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Is it my turn?
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No. You say.
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Have you finished your thought?
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Are you?
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Is there anything else you'd like to say?
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Like that's.
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Just give that.
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Is there anything else you'd like to add in context?
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I want to make sure I understand this.
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So that's the listening part.
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That's right.
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There's two things that I want to add to that.
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When you said woo woo.
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Yes.
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The one thing nothing irritates me more than when someone says you were given two ears and one mouth.
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I'm like, I'm not a toddler.
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Stop.
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That's what my kindergarten teacher used to say.
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That was just annoying.
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Correct.
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There's a reason why when I was we did like Vacation Bible School and my Indian name was Little Running Mouth.
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I kid you not.
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That is what my.
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My mother named me as my my Indian princess name because we did Cowboys and Indians one year.
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It was in the eighties.
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You can judge me, I don't care.
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My name was a little running mouth.
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That does not surprise or.
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I mean, it wouldn't surprise you if I would have told you the same story, though, either.
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No. That's the.
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The other thing that I think is funny is, is people are awkward about silence.
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Yeah.
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Let them finish and let it sit there.
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And if you're willing to let that silence sit there and just listen, they're probably going to give you more information.
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Yeah.
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And let your brain like process what they said.
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You're taking in the information.
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It's okay to take a minute if you can't pay attention, take notes.
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If you're going to interrupt them, count to three.
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Ask if there's anything else that.
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Is there anything else you want to add?
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Thank you for sharing that.
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Is there anything else you'd like to add?
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It's okay.
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It diffuses the situation, especially when there's high emotion.
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So listen.
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The next one is learn.
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So next to listen is actually hearing and processing what someone says.
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This is the learning.
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So allow them to be heard.
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When people don't feel heard, they stop sharing.
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So. And once they stop sharing problems, get hidden, mistakes get buried, risk shows up late.
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And we talked about this in culture killers, right?
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This is where the meeting after the meeting starts because people don't feel like they have been listened to.
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So then they don't feel like you've learned anything from the conversation, right?
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So don't just hear the words, seek to understand what they mean, actually learn from what they are saying.
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Ask clarifying questions.
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That sounds interesting.
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Is there anything else you'd like to help me understand how you got there?
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Help me understand what happened.
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Or better yet, repeat back what you heard the person say to make sure you understand what was said.
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So you're proving that you learned from them.
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So you can say, you know, I appreciate this input.
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What I'm hearing from you is the story this tells me is and if you're going to go on an assumption, you either start with the hallucination or the story I'm telling myself so that they're not thinking that you're just jumping to a conclusion.
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You explain, this is what I'm hearing.
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And if they go, no, that's not it.
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And you go, can you explain it again?
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And it's okay if you have to go through this process a couple of times to make sure that you understand, especially when you're an emotionally hijacked situation, you're dealing with a significant customer issue, you're dealing with a crisis in your business, you're dealing with something financial, you're dealing with something that was, um, behavioral in the organization that can cause an issue that you may have a personnel problem with.
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These are things where you have to slow down, you have to listen, and then you have to learn the information that you're listening, parrot it back.
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So those are the first two, right?
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Right.
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For the third, I'm I'm buckled up.
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Okay.
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Notice I'm listening.
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I know I'm really thank you.
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Thank you for listening.
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All right.
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Because listening is not passive.
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This is where lead comes in.
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Listening is leadership because the faster the truth gets to you, the faster the business improves.
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So you don't just say, I'm here to listen.
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You have to show it in your leadership, you actually have to do the thing.
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So you walk around the floor, you ask people direct questions.
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When they answer, you say thank you.
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Right.
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Even when you don't like the answer, you say thank you for sharing.
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That must have been difficult.
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Thank you for coming to me with that issue.
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If you don't understand what they told you, again, we ask clarifying questions.
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We are learning.
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And if people don't feel heard, they're going to stop talking.
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And when they stop talking, the business starts guessing.
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And you don't want your business to guess.
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You want your business to know.
00:12:53.160 --> 00:13:04.360
It's interesting when you say they ask the clarifying questions, because I typically try and default to that because I want as much information as I can possibly get from that person, especially if they have a different view.
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Now, you may call it nefarious, but oftentimes I want that information.
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So, oh, this is something that I maybe need to use against them, or this is something that I need to fill in a blank that I didn't have before.
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You're always building a case.
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Always, always building a case.
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You just don't need to fire that case directly back at them until it is your turn.
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The other thing with that too, is when you said the the what I default to is analogies.
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So it's my understanding.
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I kind of see it as this and this.
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Does that seem right to you?
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Um, if I go to an analogy, that's me getting that verification that, okay, we're seeing this the same way.
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Yes, I'm hearing you.
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I'm trying to.
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And if not, then we, like you said, start that over again.
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How do you like this is what's tough.
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How do you as like the founder, as the visionary, is this someone that's looking to move things forward?
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How do you listen to those opposing views that may suggest your vision may not be correct?
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Yeah, because that's a tough one.
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I mean, it is that that is a that is a kick straight to the teeth.
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Yeah.
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It is.
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I mean, I'm wired to move fast and trust my instincts.
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But I will tell you that vision without input from other people is isolation.
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Oh yeah.
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So it's really important to have that.
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So let's talk about listen, learn and lead.
00:14:27.126 --> 00:14:33.360
So listening, I have to intentionally create moments where I am not the smartest voice in the room.
00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:38.360
In fact, now I never want to be the smartest person in the room ever, ever.
00:14:38.360 --> 00:14:42.225
I was in a situation where it was very clear to me that the person next to me had to be the smartest person in the room.
00:14:42.225 --> 00:14:43.326
I was perfectly fine with that.
00:14:43.326 --> 00:14:47.725
I made sure to tell them that I didn't think I wanted to work with them, because they didn't like to work with other people that were smart.
00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:52.493
Yeah, that was fun.
00:14:52.493 --> 00:14:58.960
Um, I will say too, that listening part doesn't come naturally for most founders.
00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:00.093
It really doesn't.
00:15:00.093 --> 00:15:03.560
You have to check your ego at the freaking door.
00:15:03.560 --> 00:15:04.793
Okay?
00:15:04.793 --> 00:15:10.192
If you want to go far, if you want your business to go fast, you gotta drop your ego.
00:15:10.192 --> 00:15:13.960
I am not the be all and end all of the world here.
00:15:13.960 --> 00:15:15.926
I want my organization to move fast.
00:15:15.926 --> 00:15:19.293
I want us to continue to grow, which means I've got to hire people that are smarter than me.
00:15:19.293 --> 00:15:22.360
I've got to hire people who are willing to have hard conversations with me.
00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:23.993
And we've got a dialogue through all of this.
00:15:23.993 --> 00:15:25.893
And at the end of the day, it's not about me.
00:15:25.893 --> 00:15:27.692
It's about how the business moves forward.
00:15:27.692 --> 00:15:28.326
Yep.
00:15:28.326 --> 00:15:29.926
So you want to be a solopreneur?
00:15:29.926 --> 00:15:30.526
Fine.
00:15:30.526 --> 00:15:33.725
You want to have people you better check your ego at the door.
00:15:33.725 --> 00:15:34.660
So that's listening.
00:15:34.660 --> 00:15:36.360
Learning.
00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:41.993
People that are closest to the work for a founder are going to see the friction that they cannot see.
00:15:41.993 --> 00:15:43.526
If I don't listen, I don't learn.
00:15:43.526 --> 00:15:44.993
If I don't learn, I don't adjust.
00:15:44.993 --> 00:15:48.393
And if I don't adjust, the system is going to break while we're scaling.
00:15:48.393 --> 00:15:53.993
So you've got to learn to adjust because it's not just about the data, it's all about the action that comes after it.
00:15:53.993 --> 00:15:59.160
And then there's leading, which is, you know, listening doesn't mean abandoning the vision.
00:15:59.160 --> 00:16:00.826
It means that we're pressure testing it.
00:16:00.826 --> 00:16:04.126
And this is really where leading comes in.
00:16:04.126 --> 00:16:05.759
The goal is not consensus.
00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:06.593
It's clarity.
00:16:06.593 --> 00:16:08.493
And strong leaders.
00:16:08.493 --> 00:16:13.493
They have to be willing to not they don't protect their ideas, right?
00:16:13.493 --> 00:16:15.326
Strong leaders don't protect their ideas.
00:16:15.326 --> 00:16:17.225
They pressure test them.
00:16:17.225 --> 00:16:18.926
Is it the right idea?
00:16:18.926 --> 00:16:20.160
yeah.
00:16:20.160 --> 00:16:29.393
And leading sometimes the the most important thing that you can do as a leader after you've listened and learned is to change direction.
00:16:29.393 --> 00:16:31.593
Leading a lot of times is changing direction.
00:16:31.593 --> 00:16:36.293
It's admitting that you're wrong and applauding someone for raising the issue.
00:16:36.293 --> 00:16:37.793
Oh my gosh, thank you.
00:16:37.793 --> 00:16:40.493
I am so glad that I have hired people that are way smarter than me.
00:16:40.493 --> 00:16:44.060
They can see around some of these corners and we get to do this together.
00:16:44.060 --> 00:16:45.326
Thank you for coming to me.
00:16:45.326 --> 00:16:48.160
Thank you for letting us have this meeting, for talking to me about it.
00:16:48.160 --> 00:16:51.225
I really appreciate that you let me listen and learn from you.
00:16:51.225 --> 00:16:55.225
They will follow you to the end of the earth off a cliff.
00:16:55.225 --> 00:16:57.926
Yes yes yes yes.
00:16:57.926 --> 00:17:02.826
Um, how do you coach managers to remove that personal bias?
00:17:02.826 --> 00:17:06.725
Because, you know, a lot of managers are always right.
00:17:06.725 --> 00:17:16.225
And so they like in so many cases, they miss, we get employees that are venting, um, because they're frustrated about something.
00:17:16.225 --> 00:17:17.492
Yeah.
00:17:17.492 --> 00:17:28.893
How do you get the boss to like that, that mid-level or entry level manager to not take that personally and or to at least remove their personal bias so they don't see it as an attack.
00:17:28.893 --> 00:17:29.425
Mhm.
00:17:29.425 --> 00:17:35.326
So most conflict I have found in my experience, it's not about what was said.
00:17:35.326 --> 00:17:37.125
It's about what's assumed.
00:17:37.125 --> 00:17:38.292
Yeah.
00:17:38.292 --> 00:17:39.292
Yeah.
00:17:39.292 --> 00:17:40.125
It's how we assumed.
00:17:40.125 --> 00:17:41.859
We know what happens when we assume.
00:17:41.859 --> 00:17:42.625
Right.
00:17:42.625 --> 00:17:45.460
Um, so let's go back to listen, learn and lead.
00:17:45.460 --> 00:17:48.893
So listening, you got to teach managers to slow down and separate.
00:17:48.893 --> 00:17:54.259
And they are separating the words from the story that they are attaching to those words.
00:17:54.259 --> 00:17:54.692
Ooh.
00:17:54.692 --> 00:17:57.660
Because bias a lot of times lives in the story.
00:17:57.660 --> 00:18:05.526
And I think one of the greatest ways to diffuse and actively listen is using that summarization tool of here is what I heard.
00:18:05.526 --> 00:18:12.526
And again, if you're emotionally hijacked in a situation, it's my hallucination is or the story I'm telling myself is.
00:18:12.526 --> 00:18:18.359
And so like a great one is, Bob, you've missed three deadlines.
00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:21.960
My hallucination is, is that you want this company to fail.
00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:28.526
And he may say, oh, no, I just I can't meet the deadlines because my computer doesn't work right now.
00:18:28.526 --> 00:18:34.759
Because I can only send emails to Jim, because I didn't send a ticket to it to get it fixed.
00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:36.359
It may be a really simple thing.
00:18:37.826 --> 00:18:47.860
So it diffuses it as opposed to like, because again, when you're a new manager or you're, you're in a role and you're really trying to prove yourself and you've got someone who just may not be hitting the mark.
00:18:47.860 --> 00:18:50.826
You it's, it's very easy to take that space personally.
00:18:50.826 --> 00:18:51.960
So don't take it personally.
00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:53.860
Let's just listen to kind of what's going on.
00:18:53.860 --> 00:18:55.759
The next one then is to learn.
00:18:55.759 --> 00:18:57.559
And this is where empathy becomes a tool.
00:18:57.559 --> 00:18:58.925
It is not a feeling.
00:18:58.925 --> 00:19:00.059
Okay?
00:19:00.059 --> 00:19:02.425
We're not trying to agree with the person.
00:19:02.425 --> 00:19:05.559
We're trying to understand the why behind what they're saying.
00:19:05.559 --> 00:19:08.326
Yes, help me understand and it's not.
00:19:08.326 --> 00:19:09.660
Help me understand why you did this.
00:19:09.660 --> 00:19:14.360
No no no no no no, because we've all we've all done.
00:19:14.360 --> 00:19:15.726
Come on, we've all done that.
00:19:15.726 --> 00:19:18.093
I mean, first time as a manager.
00:19:18.093 --> 00:19:19.125
Why did you do that?
00:19:19.125 --> 00:19:21.625
No. Help me understand what you were thinking.
00:19:21.625 --> 00:19:23.425
Or help me understand the process.
00:19:23.425 --> 00:19:24.160
Help me understand.
00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:25.226
Take me.
00:19:25.226 --> 00:19:28.460
Can you tell me the story of how this happened?
00:19:28.460 --> 00:19:31.425
So, I mean, the same way we can do it in business.
00:19:31.425 --> 00:19:33.059
We can also do it with our children.
00:19:33.059 --> 00:19:36.293
Like, this is one of those things where it's just it's how you do this.
00:19:36.293 --> 00:19:40.460
And the, the easier and less emotionally charged.
00:19:40.460 --> 00:19:43.492
You ask these questions, the more you will learn.
00:19:43.492 --> 00:19:44.759
One hundred percent.
00:19:44.759 --> 00:19:48.625
Because if they're like, oh, they're not mad at me, you could be raging on the inside.
00:19:48.625 --> 00:19:50.125
That is totally fine.
00:19:50.125 --> 00:19:53.925
They don't need to know that because you need all the information.
00:19:53.925 --> 00:20:01.660
There's a reason why, like detectives and law enforcement get a whole lot more information from people when they're just casual and nice.
00:20:01.660 --> 00:20:03.492
Tell me your story.
00:20:03.492 --> 00:20:04.559
Tell me what you were thinking.
00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:06.026
Where were you on the night of?
00:20:06.026 --> 00:20:06.460
Yeah.
00:20:06.460 --> 00:20:07.692
It's not an interrogation.
00:20:07.692 --> 00:20:08.860
It is a conversation.
00:20:08.860 --> 00:20:09.226
Okay.
00:20:09.226 --> 00:20:12.293
So learn from them and having the conversation.
00:20:12.293 --> 00:20:12.625
Okay.
00:20:12.625 --> 00:20:23.692
And then leading, despite what you're hearing or how you hear it, you have to take the information and start formulating decisions based on your understanding.
00:20:23.692 --> 00:20:28.360
And this is where it's important to verify that you have listened and you have learned.
00:20:28.360 --> 00:20:34.059
Because if you're reacting to your interpretation instead of their intention, you are solving the wrong problem.
00:20:38.226 --> 00:20:39.660
I am interpreting it this way.
00:20:39.660 --> 00:20:40.692
That is not what I meant.
00:20:40.692 --> 00:20:42.026
You like, right?
00:20:42.026 --> 00:20:42.326
Yeah.
00:20:42.326 --> 00:20:46.860
How many times have you made changes to production when really it was just they were upset with Betty.
00:20:46.860 --> 00:20:48.559
Exactly.
00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:51.726
I have I have done that same we have changed a process.
00:20:51.726 --> 00:20:53.925
And then it's like, wait, why did we change this?
00:20:53.925 --> 00:20:57.026
Well, because this person got upset and like, were they the only person that ever got upset?
00:20:57.026 --> 00:20:57.425
Yes.
00:20:57.425 --> 00:20:59.125
Oh, I screwed this up.
00:20:59.125 --> 00:21:00.093
Yep, yep.
00:21:00.093 --> 00:21:05.893
So I changed a process for hundreds of people, hundreds of clients, because one person made one mistake.
00:21:05.893 --> 00:21:08.093
No, I done it.
00:21:08.093 --> 00:21:09.125
Don't do it.
00:21:11.393 --> 00:21:12.393
To lead into that.
00:21:12.393 --> 00:21:14.593
Now Josh is the operations guy.
00:21:16.059 --> 00:21:22.093
I think sometimes it's really easy to talk about constructive dialogue is just really I mean, it's squishy.
00:21:22.093 --> 00:21:22.492
Yeah.
00:21:22.492 --> 00:21:26.692
So how do you operationalize something as squishy as listening?
00:21:26.692 --> 00:21:28.692
What's the ROI in doing it?
00:21:28.692 --> 00:21:34.192
So to me, the like, there is a process that I have for this.
00:21:34.192 --> 00:21:34.660
Huh?
00:21:34.660 --> 00:21:35.526
Huh.
00:21:35.526 --> 00:21:36.526
Amazing.
00:21:36.526 --> 00:21:44.360
And ironically, it is I. This is not outlined as graphically as most of her.
00:21:44.360 --> 00:21:46.460
Like how to edit a podcast is.
00:21:46.460 --> 00:21:51.860
No, I still have some notes that are in an easily accessible place for me.
00:21:51.860 --> 00:22:04.026
So when someone comes to me with something, I can be like, hang on a second and I can pull that up and it's three or four steps for me to look at to be like, okay, what do we, what do we need to do to stay calm through this?
00:22:04.026 --> 00:22:06.692
Um, the first part, right?
00:22:06.692 --> 00:22:07.160
Yeah.
00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:07.726
Right.
00:22:07.726 --> 00:22:11.660
It's not, it's not being George Costanza's dad.
00:22:11.660 --> 00:22:13.059
Serenity now.
00:22:13.059 --> 00:22:15.192
No, it's not serenity now.
00:22:15.192 --> 00:22:17.992
Um, to me, so many people are listening to answer.
00:22:17.992 --> 00:22:22.593
And when you do that, you are just there to protect the SOPs.
00:22:22.593 --> 00:22:23.093
Mhm.
00:22:23.093 --> 00:22:25.460
Um, like you're not going to learn anything.
00:22:25.460 --> 00:22:30.226
You're not going to get any better if you are perfectly happy with staying the same or going backwards.
00:22:30.226 --> 00:22:30.960
Great.
00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:32.026
Listen to answer.
00:22:32.026 --> 00:22:32.625
Yeah.
00:22:32.625 --> 00:22:42.192
If you want to learn about what's going on in your company, because no one knows like you, you don't know these people's jobs as well as they do.
00:22:42.192 --> 00:22:48.492
No, it's so tough to like, it's one of those things that you have to say that out loud.
00:22:48.492 --> 00:22:53.360
Like for me to say, Lance is a better editor than I am.
00:22:53.360 --> 00:22:54.526
Yeah.
00:22:54.526 --> 00:22:55.393
He is.
00:22:55.393 --> 00:22:56.093
Yeah.
00:22:56.093 --> 00:22:56.692
Okay.
00:22:56.692 --> 00:22:57.593
We're good with this.
00:22:57.593 --> 00:22:58.059
Yeah.
00:22:58.059 --> 00:22:59.625
Um, you have to realize that.
00:22:59.625 --> 00:23:02.293
So to me, you are looking for a better way.
00:23:02.293 --> 00:23:04.526
You're not looking to shut them up.
00:23:04.526 --> 00:23:06.526
That's the whole difference of it.
00:23:06.526 --> 00:23:13.425
And when you look at it, this is this I'm listening this way to the benefit of the business, not to defend myself.
00:23:13.425 --> 00:23:14.826
That's where it becomes.
00:23:14.826 --> 00:23:19.059
So yeah, the first step on this for me is the, the internal prep.
00:23:19.059 --> 00:23:21.593
And like you said, get get the ego out.
00:23:21.593 --> 00:23:22.059
Mhm.
00:23:22.059 --> 00:23:23.226
One hundred percent.
00:23:23.226 --> 00:23:24.226
Remove the ego.
00:23:24.226 --> 00:23:35.160
If you can explicitly acknowledge that your information may be incomplete, you got to say, look, I don't know everything.
00:23:35.160 --> 00:23:36.093
Yeah.
00:23:36.093 --> 00:23:40.793
As soon as you can say that, like out loud, I don't know everything.
00:23:40.793 --> 00:23:45.293
Um, which is tough to say as a as a business owner, I don't know everything.
00:23:46.293 --> 00:23:47.360
Yikes.
00:23:47.360 --> 00:23:58.460
Um, I mean, every time I said that, my spine kind of stiffened up a little bit, but once again, you have to say it because then if you can't say that you're there to defend instead of audit.
00:23:58.460 --> 00:23:59.625
Yeah.
00:23:59.625 --> 00:24:06.125
Um, auditors like look at IRS auditors, they're not there.
00:24:06.125 --> 00:24:07.759
Like if you're friendly with them.
00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:08.992
Does that matter?
00:24:08.992 --> 00:24:09.460
Nope.
00:24:09.460 --> 00:24:09.992
Nope.
00:24:09.992 --> 00:24:13.059
They're there to listen to specifically to the data.
00:24:13.059 --> 00:24:17.593
Yeah, they're there specifically for the information.
00:24:17.593 --> 00:24:22.360
These people are about as emotional emotional as this table.
00:24:22.360 --> 00:24:22.960
Yeah.
00:24:23.992 --> 00:24:26.960
Um, so take that there to do the job, right?
00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:30.759
Take that auditor's mindset approach with curiosity.
00:24:30.759 --> 00:24:32.726
They're looking for information.
00:24:32.726 --> 00:24:33.259
Yeah.
00:24:33.259 --> 00:24:38.726
Um, they're looking where the process is failing the person, not where the person is failing the process.
00:24:38.726 --> 00:24:43.160
If you go in looking for a culprit, the team will hide the truth.
00:24:43.160 --> 00:24:46.860
And if you go in looking for friction, they will help you find it.
00:24:46.860 --> 00:24:48.160
Oh, yeah.
00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:53.125
If you say if you say, I am looking for who screwed this up.
00:24:54.393 --> 00:24:54.793
Right.
00:24:54.793 --> 00:24:56.360
The finger pointing.
00:24:56.360 --> 00:24:58.393
I mean, people will scatter.
00:24:58.393 --> 00:25:03.526
Your factory floor will turn into a ghost town in a matter of seconds.
00:25:03.526 --> 00:25:09.393
If you go in saying, hey, I need help finding where the problem is.
00:25:09.393 --> 00:25:13.593
Now, what that is, is you have to realize this is the flip side of that.
00:25:13.593 --> 00:25:17.226
This is someone coming to you telling you where the problem is.
00:25:17.226 --> 00:25:17.860
Yeah.
00:25:17.860 --> 00:25:19.660
You just have to be willing to listen to that.
00:25:19.660 --> 00:25:20.425
Mhm.
00:25:20.425 --> 00:25:23.160
Um, allow them to speak until they are completely finished.
00:25:23.160 --> 00:25:27.059
No interruptions and no reloading your rebuttal.
00:25:27.059 --> 00:25:33.960
I mean, there's so many times where I you see the hourglass spinning above someone's head as you're talking to them.
00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:34.593
You see that?
00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:39.160
And when you when you change your point a little bit, you see the hourglass again.
00:25:39.160 --> 00:26:19.690
You're like, damn it, they are not listening to a word I am saying.
00:26:19.690 --> 00:26:26.255
No. And I mean, the only listening they're doing is, is like literally, it's like someone skeet shooting.
00:26:26.255 --> 00:26:26.855
Mhm.
00:26:26.855 --> 00:26:32.056
Um, they're just, they're just throwing the clay pigeons in the trap and they're waiting for you to pull it so they can shoot them down.
00:26:32.056 --> 00:26:33.056
That's exactly right.
00:26:33.056 --> 00:26:37.722
Um, that's totally, yeah, that's totally the wrong way to look at it.
00:26:37.722 --> 00:26:38.089
Yeah.
00:26:38.089 --> 00:26:40.655
Um, what I always like to say is the mirror check.
00:26:40.655 --> 00:26:46.690
What I'm hearing is the current billing process takes two, creates a two hour delay on Tuesdays.
00:26:46.690 --> 00:26:47.722
Did I get that right?
00:26:47.722 --> 00:26:49.690
Once again, here's what I'm hearing.
00:26:49.690 --> 00:26:50.123
Yeah.
00:26:50.123 --> 00:26:51.123
Did I get that right?
00:26:51.123 --> 00:26:52.056
Yep.
00:26:52.056 --> 00:26:56.255
Um, if you say that once again, you're getting verification of that.
00:26:56.255 --> 00:27:04.455
You're on the same page because as you said, so many, like so often when we're on the opposite side of things, it's a miscommunication.
00:27:04.455 --> 00:27:05.155
Yeah.
00:27:05.155 --> 00:27:07.923
It's if it's missed alignment, you should have fired them a while ago.
00:27:07.923 --> 00:27:08.755
Mhm.
00:27:08.755 --> 00:27:15.789
Um, move your objective from being right to finding the truth.
00:27:15.789 --> 00:27:16.322
Yeah.
00:27:16.322 --> 00:27:17.722
You are the truth, Hunter.
00:27:17.722 --> 00:27:19.755
You are not trying to be.
00:27:19.755 --> 00:27:20.389
Right.
00:27:20.389 --> 00:27:20.755
Yeah.
00:27:20.755 --> 00:27:25.955
If your ego is in the room, the truth will hide from it.
00:27:25.955 --> 00:27:27.589
Your big, bad ego.
00:27:27.589 --> 00:27:28.190
Yeah.
00:27:29.289 --> 00:27:31.955
Um. Oh, yeah.
00:27:31.955 --> 00:27:34.522
Something you need to consider with this.
00:27:34.522 --> 00:27:43.655
As a leader, you have access to data, financials, and your visionary goals that the front line team that Bob on the factory floor has no idea about.
00:27:43.655 --> 00:27:44.123
Yeah.
00:27:44.123 --> 00:27:45.690
None.
00:27:45.690 --> 00:27:48.522
There is an information asymmetry.
00:27:48.522 --> 00:27:55.255
Your job as the business owner is to like, be looking at information is to process information.
00:27:55.255 --> 00:28:00.289
What I always find interesting is if someone's bringing you information and you want them to shut the hell up.
00:28:00.289 --> 00:28:02.355
No, never.
00:28:02.355 --> 00:28:03.255
Right.
00:28:03.255 --> 00:28:07.556
I don't care if it has nothing to do with anything you say.
00:28:07.556 --> 00:28:08.289
Thank you.
00:28:10.255 --> 00:28:11.556
You just say thank you.
00:28:12.690 --> 00:28:14.455
I appreciate you coming to me with this issue.
00:28:14.455 --> 00:28:16.556
That has nothing to do with anything that I need to worry about.
00:28:16.556 --> 00:28:17.222
But you know what?
00:28:17.222 --> 00:28:19.423
At some point in time, they might come to you with something else.
00:28:19.423 --> 00:28:20.623
So just say, you know what?
00:28:20.623 --> 00:28:20.990
Correct.
00:28:20.990 --> 00:28:22.423
Thank you for telling me this.
00:28:22.423 --> 00:28:23.822
I'll take it under advisement.
00:28:23.822 --> 00:28:25.022
Correct.
00:28:25.022 --> 00:28:33.089
Now, realize in that information asymmetry that goes both ways because you're gonna have a blind spot.
00:28:33.089 --> 00:28:33.822
Yeah.
00:28:33.822 --> 00:28:37.722
Um, Bob on the factory floor puts the widget together much better than you do.
00:28:37.722 --> 00:28:39.423
And Bob knows what's holding Bob up.
00:28:39.423 --> 00:28:42.089
That's why you need to listen to Bob even when you don't want to.
00:28:42.089 --> 00:28:46.289
Oh my gosh, just give him five minutes, one hundred percent.
00:28:46.289 --> 00:28:48.322
You are missing some critical information.
00:28:48.322 --> 00:28:51.190
So the people knowing the job know the mechanics of it.
00:28:51.190 --> 00:28:52.655
They know what's going on.
00:28:52.655 --> 00:28:55.022
If they don't, you've got a whole nother problem.
00:28:55.022 --> 00:28:57.690
Um, you need to learn from them.
00:28:57.690 --> 00:29:03.423
You must listen to the person without using your extra info as a weapon.
00:29:03.423 --> 00:29:07.222
Because what I hate is when someone comes in so many times I can't.
00:29:07.222 --> 00:29:07.990
Oh my gosh.
00:29:07.990 --> 00:29:08.923
Yeah.
00:29:08.923 --> 00:29:15.022
And I mean, and I know I've done this a moment is because we're, we're working on something.
00:29:15.022 --> 00:29:19.222
Maybe there's a process, maybe there's something that we're working on shutting down.
00:29:19.222 --> 00:29:20.522
You're in a hurry.
00:29:20.522 --> 00:29:22.655
Someone comes in like, hey, I got a suggestion for this.
00:29:22.655 --> 00:29:25.222
And you're like, it doesn't matter.
00:29:25.222 --> 00:29:28.190
Um, you're like, get the hell out of my office.
00:29:28.190 --> 00:29:29.255
I'm busy.
00:29:29.255 --> 00:29:29.855
Yeah.
00:29:29.855 --> 00:29:34.655
They have no idea that this is a process that isn't going to be needed in another four or five months.
00:29:34.655 --> 00:29:41.623
No, um, there's there's just, it's so many different ways for it to just crash and burn.
00:29:41.623 --> 00:29:46.123
And if you do that once, you will never hear from that person again.
00:29:46.123 --> 00:29:48.889
No, at least not in a productive manner.
00:29:48.889 --> 00:29:54.190
Well, I would say this is also why it's really important that you share vision with your team and where you're going.
00:29:54.190 --> 00:30:07.123
Now, sometimes they don't need to know everything that's going on, but I bet if they knew that you were working on innovation and optimization and something that they might be less likely to come to you with an issue that they think might be eliminated in six months.
00:30:07.123 --> 00:30:07.855
Correct.
00:30:07.855 --> 00:30:16.990
Or if they come to you with something, be willing to say, hey, you know what we're working on something that I think undoes that, but once again, ask for their input on it.
00:30:16.990 --> 00:30:17.322
Yeah.
00:30:17.322 --> 00:30:17.990
What do you think?
00:30:17.990 --> 00:30:18.322
Right.
00:30:18.322 --> 00:30:18.990
What are your thoughts?
00:30:18.990 --> 00:30:19.789
What do you think?
00:30:19.789 --> 00:30:27.490
If if you are so worried about your innovation leaking out to competition through your employees, you got the wrong employees.
00:30:27.490 --> 00:30:33.522
You do one hundred percent because they should realize what they say is a threat to their own job at that point.
00:30:33.522 --> 00:30:35.990
Yeah, it's very simple.
00:30:35.990 --> 00:30:53.556
Um, the other thing that I, that I really want to talk about was the, the return on investment of this, um, if, if people shut down, they're going to stop listening to you as soon as you stop listening to them, they're stopping listening to you.
00:30:53.556 --> 00:30:53.990
Yeah.
00:30:53.990 --> 00:30:59.889
That's when this is the, the, the maternity ward for shadow workflows.
00:30:59.889 --> 00:31:02.289
This is where shadow workflows are born.
00:31:02.289 --> 00:31:03.056
Yes it is.
00:31:03.056 --> 00:31:09.289
Um, it's not when, it's not when two processes love each other very much and they, they get together alone at night.
00:31:09.289 --> 00:31:15.855
No, it's when you stop listening, that's when you get shadow workflows because they will circumnavigate the leader to get the job done.
00:31:15.855 --> 00:31:18.423
However the hell they feel like they want to.
00:31:18.423 --> 00:31:19.022
Yeah.
00:31:20.089 --> 00:31:23.089
If someone doesn't feel heard, like I said, they're gonna stop sharing.
00:31:23.089 --> 00:31:26.556
The other other thing is, is the heard but overruled dynamic.
00:31:26.556 --> 00:31:34.822
If an employee feels like they they, you truly heard them and still make a decision that goes against them.
00:31:34.822 --> 00:31:36.490
They're still likely to buy in.
00:31:36.490 --> 00:31:42.056
Yeah, but and that's because they'll assume you have other information.
00:31:42.056 --> 00:31:47.222
But if they don't, there's one of two things here.
00:31:47.222 --> 00:31:53.222
First off, if they don't feel heard they're just going to do the shadow workflow anyways.
00:31:53.222 --> 00:31:57.789
Second off, if you notice them doing the thing anyways, guess what.
00:31:57.789 --> 00:32:00.155
You've got the brilliant jerk you do.
00:32:00.155 --> 00:32:11.623
Um, because we've had that and that's, that is how I have watched the brilliant jerk be born through the shadow workflows, because it was someone very intelligent that wasn't getting listened to.
00:32:11.623 --> 00:32:14.222
So like, well, I'll just figure out how to do it on my own.
00:32:14.222 --> 00:32:19.389
Um, and they did, and it crippled other areas of the business and it was difficult to watch.
00:32:19.389 --> 00:32:25.155
Um, the, this to me is the more transparent you can be about anything and everything the better.
00:32:25.155 --> 00:32:28.423
Explaining why the decision went a different way.
00:32:28.423 --> 00:32:31.889
It really builds that bridge to trust.
00:32:31.889 --> 00:32:33.289
We talked about trust recently.
00:32:33.289 --> 00:32:34.022
We have.
00:32:34.022 --> 00:32:36.655
And when people are like, well, why can't they just do their jobs?
00:32:36.655 --> 00:32:42.190
If you tell them how things work, they will do their jobs much better, much faster, more loyal.
00:32:42.190 --> 00:32:43.589
You'll have less friction.
00:32:43.589 --> 00:32:53.889
Yeah, just it's that five minutes of listening that shows up in so many other areas and five minutes of explaining and remind yourselves that you have to repeat it more than once.
00:32:53.889 --> 00:32:57.889
Usually it takes people ten times to hear it before they commit it to memory.
00:32:57.889 --> 00:32:58.822
Sure.
00:32:58.822 --> 00:32:59.455
Yeah.
00:32:59.455 --> 00:33:06.623
So when you're talking about vision operations, strategic direction, it can't just be one time in a quarterly meeting.
00:33:06.623 --> 00:33:07.889
It has to be parroted.
00:33:07.889 --> 00:33:09.822
That's something that we're working on right now at AUI.
00:33:09.822 --> 00:33:18.455
And clarity is really making sure because we're working on some pretty innovative things right now and kind of disrupting ourselves before our industry industry disrupts us.
00:33:18.455 --> 00:33:23.255
And so having those conversations, I live in it every day, right?
00:33:23.255 --> 00:33:26.289
My frontline people do not live in it every day.
00:33:26.289 --> 00:33:28.255
So when they're like, we don't understand and we're afraid.
00:33:28.255 --> 00:33:29.889
I'm like opportunity to explain.
00:33:29.889 --> 00:33:35.255
I do not get frustrated at this point in time because I know they are doing the things that keep the business moving.
00:33:35.255 --> 00:33:41.056
I am doing the things that's going to help us operationally over the next ten years, and it's important that they buy in with time.
00:33:41.056 --> 00:33:44.822
But again, they're not living in the day to day that I'm living in and vice versa.
00:33:44.822 --> 00:33:46.423
So we have to have dialogue.
00:33:46.423 --> 00:33:47.155
Yeah.
00:33:47.155 --> 00:33:49.755
And they there's that once again, there's that trust.
00:33:49.755 --> 00:33:50.255
Yes.
00:33:50.255 --> 00:33:55.990
That we're, we're all, we're all trying to do the same thing just at different times, different places and different ways.
00:33:55.990 --> 00:33:57.089
Our values are in alignment.
00:33:57.089 --> 00:33:59.556
What we're doing in our purpose is still in alignment.
00:33:59.556 --> 00:34:01.255
We just sometimes have to repeat ourselves.
00:34:01.255 --> 00:34:02.222
And that's okay.
00:34:02.222 --> 00:34:14.155
The other thing that I find with the when people aren't heard and when people aren't listening, um, you get the meeting after the meeting always.
00:34:14.155 --> 00:34:25.090
Um, I have seen in so many cases, someone will walk out of someone's office and they'll walk right into someone else's office and I'm like, okay, that's not good.
00:34:25.090 --> 00:34:34.523
No, the only time the meeting after the meeting is a key of team health is when your managers and leaders are having the meeting after the meeting of.
00:34:34.523 --> 00:34:35.590
How did that go?
00:34:35.590 --> 00:34:37.923
What do we need to do to make sure that this sticks?
00:34:37.923 --> 00:34:39.722
I am a firm believer of the meeting.
00:34:39.722 --> 00:34:41.789
After the meeting when it is your leadership team.
00:34:41.789 --> 00:34:42.556
Yep.
00:34:42.556 --> 00:34:43.222
Yep.
00:34:43.222 --> 00:34:49.822
Now, I wholeheartedly agree because then in many cases, there's the like what was the information that we got?
00:34:49.822 --> 00:34:50.056
Yep.
00:34:50.056 --> 00:34:52.722
And what do we need to do as a leadership team moving forward?
00:34:52.722 --> 00:34:52.989
Yeah.
00:34:52.989 --> 00:34:54.623
How do you think this was received?
00:34:54.623 --> 00:35:07.123
Do you think you may have some people that are your early adopters, or they may be the people that you know, you need to have in the room as a as a person that's proponent of how do we sell that person?
00:35:07.123 --> 00:35:08.289
Did that person engage?
00:35:08.289 --> 00:35:09.289
What do we need to do?
00:35:09.289 --> 00:35:15.123
Like that type like autopsy after a big meeting to make sure that you continue communication absolutely necessary.
00:35:16.789 --> 00:35:20.123
Why should you be the moving option?
00:35:20.123 --> 00:35:21.322
Like what?
00:35:21.322 --> 00:35:23.955
Why is being able to move your opinion?
00:35:23.955 --> 00:35:24.989
Yeah.
00:35:24.989 --> 00:35:25.955
Why is that?
00:35:25.955 --> 00:35:26.922
Leadership strength.
00:35:26.922 --> 00:35:29.623
Why would people see that as leadership strength?
00:35:29.623 --> 00:35:33.522
When you say, oh hey, yeah, we are going to change course.
00:35:33.522 --> 00:35:34.155
Yeah.
00:35:34.155 --> 00:35:36.489
Don't people see that as weakness, I think.
00:35:36.489 --> 00:35:40.690
Oh, I knew if I asked that you said it that way.
00:35:40.690 --> 00:35:41.623
Yeah.
00:35:41.623 --> 00:35:44.722
So you're weak because you changed your mind.
00:35:44.722 --> 00:35:46.555
The ability to change your mind is not weakness.
00:35:46.555 --> 00:35:47.755
It is awareness.
00:35:47.755 --> 00:35:48.022
Yes.
00:35:48.022 --> 00:35:49.755
And that is huge.
00:35:49.755 --> 00:35:51.789
Rigid leaders are going to protect their ego.
00:35:51.789 --> 00:35:58.355
Flexible leaders, ones that can change their mind, protect the outcome, which is really the organizational health of the business.
00:35:58.355 --> 00:36:05.422
You know, if if new information cannot move your thinking, I mean, you're not listening.
00:36:07.122 --> 00:36:07.822
That's it.
00:36:07.822 --> 00:36:12.289
I mean, if you want to grow, you've got to be willing to change your mind, change direction.
00:36:12.289 --> 00:36:14.389
Sometimes say, oh my gosh, I was wrong.
00:36:14.389 --> 00:36:15.755
Oh my gosh.
00:36:15.755 --> 00:36:26.822
The two most powerful things that you can say as a leader besides thank you are I was wrong And I don't know, it's funny.
00:36:26.822 --> 00:36:28.822
I've got a sports analogy for you.
00:36:28.822 --> 00:36:30.689
It's going to be one of your favorites.
00:36:30.689 --> 00:36:32.022
Is that a football analogy?
00:36:32.022 --> 00:36:32.555
It is.
00:36:32.555 --> 00:36:33.122
Okay.
00:36:33.122 --> 00:36:39.622
How many times do you see a running back go to run up the center and they stop and they're like, uh, uh, and then they head towards the side.
00:36:39.622 --> 00:36:40.155
Yeah.
00:36:40.155 --> 00:36:40.855
Same idea.
00:36:40.855 --> 00:36:41.422
Yeah.
00:36:41.422 --> 00:36:43.855
Um, or they wait for the opening, right?
00:36:43.855 --> 00:36:48.189
You gotta, they pause for a second because the offensive line has to make the hole, right?
00:36:48.189 --> 00:36:48.422
Yeah.
00:36:48.422 --> 00:36:50.855
They, they, they're looking at information and like.
00:36:50.855 --> 00:36:53.089
Yes, what I thought I was going to do.
00:36:53.089 --> 00:36:53.389
Yes.
00:36:53.389 --> 00:36:54.455
That's not an option.
00:36:54.455 --> 00:37:00.789
No. So many times when you see them run straight with the back of the offensive line, they go nowhere.
00:37:00.789 --> 00:37:01.755
Yeah.
00:37:01.755 --> 00:37:05.022
That's why I scream half the time when I'm watching football.
00:37:07.789 --> 00:37:09.822
Just say, here's one that I find so interesting.
00:37:09.822 --> 00:37:10.922
Mhm.
00:37:10.922 --> 00:37:16.189
Uh, sometimes the marketing data says do a yeah.
00:37:16.189 --> 00:37:20.289
Sometimes customers shout do B yeah.
00:37:20.289 --> 00:37:21.289
Who do you listen to?
00:37:22.922 --> 00:37:29.155
I would say if customers are consistently saying something different than the data, that's a signal.
00:37:29.155 --> 00:37:31.389
I think sometimes it's easy for people to be like, oh, it's just noise.
00:37:31.389 --> 00:37:32.322
No it's not.
00:37:32.322 --> 00:37:33.122
That's a signal.
00:37:33.122 --> 00:37:33.989
You want alignment.
00:37:33.989 --> 00:37:35.455
You don't need to choose sides.
00:37:35.455 --> 00:37:36.689
Data tells you what's happening.
00:37:36.689 --> 00:37:38.389
People tell you why.
00:37:38.389 --> 00:37:43.422
It's interesting because, yeah, I feel like that the we've seen it all the time.
00:37:43.422 --> 00:37:53.122
The marketing data typically lags so bad that like it's telling you what, what you looked at six months ago.
00:37:53.122 --> 00:37:53.589
Yeah.
00:37:53.589 --> 00:37:56.122
Um, the customers are going to tell you what's happening today.
00:37:56.122 --> 00:37:56.555
Yeah.
00:37:56.555 --> 00:37:59.289
You need to listen to what people are saying.
00:37:59.289 --> 00:38:01.022
It can't all be lagging indicators.
00:38:01.022 --> 00:38:03.355
It has to be leading indicators too.
00:38:03.355 --> 00:38:03.955
Yes.
00:38:03.955 --> 00:38:04.222
Yeah.
00:38:04.222 --> 00:38:05.555
One hundred percent.
00:38:05.555 --> 00:38:11.622
Um, are you okay with the awkward pause after someone finishes speaking?
00:38:15.189 --> 00:38:16.155
What do you think?
00:38:18.089 --> 00:38:19.022
I've done a lot of therapy.
00:38:19.022 --> 00:38:20.322
I've done a lot of negotiations.
00:38:20.322 --> 00:38:23.989
I've done a lot a lot of employment stuff.
00:38:23.989 --> 00:38:26.789
Yeah, I have gotten really comfortable with silence.
00:38:26.789 --> 00:38:27.789
But most people are not.
00:38:27.789 --> 00:38:29.189
Most leaders are not.
00:38:29.189 --> 00:38:38.355
No. So if you really want to optimize yourself as a leader, you have to get comfortable with silence because silence is where truth shows up most of the time.
00:38:38.355 --> 00:38:38.922
Yep.
00:38:38.922 --> 00:38:41.255
I am completely comfortable with it.
00:38:41.255 --> 00:38:47.989
I typically though, have like you, the quick thinker, the, the, the wit is there.
00:38:47.989 --> 00:38:50.355
So I'm like, oh yes, yes, yes, yes.
00:38:50.355 --> 00:38:55.522
And so it is a, it is a very conscious effort to pump the brakes.
00:38:55.522 --> 00:38:55.989
Yeah.
00:38:55.989 --> 00:38:59.989
But yeah, I can sit there all day and stare at someone and be like, okay.
00:38:59.989 --> 00:39:03.755
Um, but it's the joys of having no dignity.
00:39:03.755 --> 00:39:09.289
Well, and I think, no, um, not for me.
00:39:09.289 --> 00:39:15.522
I would say the other thing too, if you fill that gap too quickly, you can cut off the real insight.
00:39:15.522 --> 00:39:25.255
Because if you have a lot of times your your introverted or your auditory processor, it may take them a little bit more time to have that conversation.
00:39:25.255 --> 00:39:30.089
I mean, and I would say too, if you can't sit in silence, you are never going to hear the full story.
00:39:30.089 --> 00:39:37.789
No. Especially when you are trying to deal with an autopsy of a situation and you're like, okay, I don't know what the right answer is.
00:39:37.789 --> 00:39:42.055
I don't know what happened, but we got to start talking about what happened.
00:39:42.055 --> 00:39:44.055
So let's just let's just sit for a minute.
00:39:44.055 --> 00:39:48.155
And when we're ready to talk, I'm here to listen.
00:39:48.155 --> 00:39:52.589
The the other thing is that I've, I've tried to look at with this.
00:39:52.589 --> 00:39:58.989
And the thing that I've told myself with it is, I know what I know in this conversation.
00:39:58.989 --> 00:40:03.155
Do I want to fill in the blanks or do I want to let them fill in the blanks in the information?
00:40:03.155 --> 00:40:07.755
I probably want them to fill in the blanks in the information so I can figure out what they know also.
00:40:07.755 --> 00:40:11.522
Yes, you're going to listen, then you're going to learn and then you're going to lead, right?
00:40:11.522 --> 00:40:11.922
Yeah.
00:40:11.922 --> 00:40:12.555
Right.
00:40:13.555 --> 00:40:16.255
Um, I love some of these.
00:40:17.489 --> 00:40:20.055
the seven second rule.
00:40:20.055 --> 00:40:21.989
Can you sit for seven seconds?
00:40:26.355 --> 00:40:30.355
You know I won't let you because Dead Air dead air podcast is terrible.
00:40:30.355 --> 00:40:36.455
Which is why I say count to three when you say not one two three one two three.
00:40:37.489 --> 00:40:39.122
Yes, I can sit for seven seconds.
00:40:39.122 --> 00:40:39.522
Yeah.
00:40:39.522 --> 00:40:40.589
Oh, I know you can.
00:40:40.589 --> 00:40:41.922
I know you can.
00:40:41.922 --> 00:40:46.655
There's often times where you're sitting there looking at me like I think eventually he'll shut up.
00:40:46.655 --> 00:40:47.755
It's not true.
00:40:47.755 --> 00:40:49.355
Not true at all.
00:40:51.522 --> 00:40:51.922
Yes.
00:40:51.922 --> 00:40:53.955
Practice the seven second rule I would say to you.
00:40:53.955 --> 00:40:54.755
Slow down to speed up.
00:40:54.755 --> 00:41:00.889
If you're rushing conversations, you're going to repeat the problem over and over and over.
00:41:00.889 --> 00:41:02.255
One hundred percent.
00:41:02.255 --> 00:41:04.389
Um, I always say to audit your bias.
00:41:04.389 --> 00:41:04.722
What?
00:41:04.722 --> 00:41:12.189
Like realize that you have a bias going in and try and get to, to walk a mile in someone else's shoes.
00:41:12.189 --> 00:41:14.922
First you have to take off your own, take your shoes off.
00:41:14.922 --> 00:41:15.189
Yeah.
00:41:15.189 --> 00:41:17.289
And I would say you seek the signal, not the story.
00:41:17.289 --> 00:41:18.055
Focus.
00:41:18.055 --> 00:41:22.122
So you're going to focus on what's actually being said, not how it makes you feel.
00:41:22.122 --> 00:41:24.355
So seek the signal, not the story.
00:41:25.489 --> 00:41:26.522
Signal not story.
00:41:26.522 --> 00:41:27.589
Feelings.
00:41:27.589 --> 00:41:28.722
Feelings are okay.
00:41:28.722 --> 00:41:33.022
But you've got to be able to listen to the facts because you know, facts don't care about your feelings.
00:41:33.022 --> 00:41:33.522
Yeah.
00:41:33.522 --> 00:41:36.089
I also, I love to just ask why?
00:41:36.089 --> 00:41:37.422
Why did this happen?
00:41:37.422 --> 00:41:39.355
Um, why do you feel that way?
00:41:39.355 --> 00:41:40.689
Ask a ton of whys.
00:41:40.689 --> 00:41:41.222
Yeah.
00:41:41.222 --> 00:41:48.489
Because once again, you're going to get more and more information and then you're, you're moving into the process of it instead of the people part of it.
00:41:48.489 --> 00:41:49.255
Yeah.
00:41:49.255 --> 00:41:50.622
Um, devil's advocate.
00:41:50.622 --> 00:41:51.655
Yeah.
00:41:51.655 --> 00:41:54.655
Useful tool or just a way to be a pain in the ass.
00:41:54.655 --> 00:41:57.122
Oh, it's highly valuable, highly valuable.
00:41:57.122 --> 00:41:59.655
But it has to be done, in truth, not simply to win an argument.
00:41:59.655 --> 00:42:02.189
You don't let your brilliant jerk ever be the devil's advocate.
00:42:02.189 --> 00:42:09.589
No. No, I, I, I wholeheartedly agree with that one.
00:42:09.589 --> 00:42:10.889
It's it's one of those things.
00:42:10.889 --> 00:42:13.722
It you have to use this.
00:42:13.722 --> 00:42:16.189
you have to look at what's what am I missing?
00:42:16.189 --> 00:42:17.955
Yeah, because that's what you're asking.
00:42:17.955 --> 00:42:21.022
Devil's advocate is a bad way of saying, what am I missing?
00:42:21.022 --> 00:42:21.455
Exactly.
00:42:21.455 --> 00:42:23.722
But you need to ask, what am I missing?
00:42:23.722 --> 00:42:26.355
You don't necessarily need to tell people what they're missing.
00:42:26.355 --> 00:42:29.022
No. And red team, there's lots of different ways that you can do it.
00:42:29.022 --> 00:42:33.522
I think it can be extremely important depending on what you're trying to accomplish.
00:42:33.522 --> 00:42:35.089
So we've talked a lot about listening.
00:42:35.089 --> 00:42:35.622
Josh.
00:42:35.622 --> 00:42:41.055
Um, can a leader ever listen too much and where's the line between collaboration and indecision?
00:42:42.922 --> 00:42:44.122
We've all heard that.
00:42:44.122 --> 00:42:47.122
I just like to get a little more information before I make the decision.
00:42:47.122 --> 00:42:47.922
Give me more context.
00:42:47.922 --> 00:42:49.455
We've been meeting for six hours.
00:42:49.455 --> 00:42:51.855
We've been meeting on this issue for six months.
00:42:51.855 --> 00:42:54.722
I yeah, you can listen too much.
00:42:54.722 --> 00:42:57.189
I mean, eventually, like how much?
00:42:57.189 --> 00:42:59.189
And there's a point of diminishing returns.
00:42:59.189 --> 00:43:00.122
Yeah.
00:43:00.122 --> 00:43:05.322
We all know that person that's going to tell you the story where they're like, it was a beautiful day.
00:43:05.322 --> 00:43:10.789
And I saw this one rock that caught my eye when I was out riding my motorcycle.
00:43:10.789 --> 00:43:13.255
And this is a story about me riding my motorcycle.
00:43:13.255 --> 00:43:15.855
And there's this one rock that was really pretty.
00:43:15.855 --> 00:43:17.489
And like, you're like, Holy cow.
00:43:17.489 --> 00:43:18.122
Yeah, those are the people.
00:43:18.122 --> 00:43:19.189
You don't ask to tell a story.
00:43:19.189 --> 00:43:19.622
Right.
00:43:19.622 --> 00:43:20.789
The birds are chirping.
00:43:20.789 --> 00:43:21.289
The.
00:43:21.289 --> 00:43:21.822
Right.
00:43:21.822 --> 00:43:22.255
Sure.
00:43:22.255 --> 00:43:22.889
Yeah.
00:43:22.889 --> 00:43:25.322
Um, no, I just tell me what's important about this.
00:43:25.322 --> 00:43:26.855
So yes, you can, you can do that.
00:43:26.855 --> 00:43:27.789
What's your thoughts on it?
00:43:27.789 --> 00:43:28.655
Oh, absolutely.
00:43:28.655 --> 00:43:34.355
I mean, especially like we're going to argue over or have a discussion about where we're having lunch until dinner time.
00:43:34.355 --> 00:43:42.455
No. Every couple has been there.
00:43:42.455 --> 00:43:44.055
Every couple has.
00:43:44.055 --> 00:43:47.255
I think that's what that's why brunch was invented.
00:43:47.255 --> 00:43:49.222
Wouldn't that be linner that too.
00:43:49.222 --> 00:43:49.955
But like we don't.
00:43:49.955 --> 00:43:50.822
What do you want for breakfast?
00:43:50.822 --> 00:43:51.855
I don't know what you want for breakfast.
00:43:51.855 --> 00:43:52.289
What do you want?
00:43:52.289 --> 00:43:52.689
For?
00:43:52.689 --> 00:43:53.655
What do you want for lunch?
00:43:53.655 --> 00:43:54.722
Oh, okay.
00:43:54.722 --> 00:43:55.455
Breakfast for lunch.
00:43:55.455 --> 00:43:59.622
I mean, that's I'm telling you, this is how these things happened.
00:44:00.855 --> 00:44:02.022
It's not because we slept in.
00:44:02.022 --> 00:44:03.422
It's because we were indecisive.
00:44:06.522 --> 00:44:07.422
Nice.
00:44:07.422 --> 00:44:07.922
Makes sense.
00:44:07.922 --> 00:44:09.122
Makes sense.
00:44:09.122 --> 00:44:12.955
Uh, what's big pivot you've made because you listen to the other side.
00:44:12.955 --> 00:44:16.322
Strategic direction in how we built out our HR model.
00:44:16.322 --> 00:44:16.789
Interesting.
00:44:16.789 --> 00:44:19.789
So I had some ideas as to what I thought it needed to be.
00:44:19.789 --> 00:44:30.022
And then with some collaboration conversation and, you know, really talking to Julie on that side, it was like, no, no, no, no. I think we need to build in some capacity in different ways.
00:44:30.022 --> 00:44:30.589
So.
00:44:30.589 --> 00:44:31.222
Yeah.
00:44:31.222 --> 00:44:32.689
Pulling everybody in it makes it better.
00:44:32.689 --> 00:44:33.689
What about you?
00:44:33.689 --> 00:44:40.922
I was with the hiring at the truck dealership when we started to talk to the like, I'm like, here's some tools to hire better.
00:44:40.922 --> 00:44:42.889
And they're like, we ain't got time for this.
00:44:42.889 --> 00:44:45.589
I started like, oh, oh, right.
00:44:45.589 --> 00:44:48.489
So we had to listen to them on how they were hiring.
00:44:48.489 --> 00:44:48.889
Yeah.
00:44:48.889 --> 00:44:50.522
And it totally, totally.
00:44:50.522 --> 00:44:50.789
Yeah.
00:44:50.789 --> 00:44:53.055
How do we build this for you if you can't use it?
00:44:53.055 --> 00:44:53.455
Right.
00:44:53.455 --> 00:44:54.322
Yeah.
00:44:54.322 --> 00:44:58.589
Uh, that being said, um, thank you everyone for tuning in.
00:44:58.589 --> 00:45:01.422
As always, Chris and I have have a ton of fun doing this.
00:45:01.422 --> 00:45:02.822
We really appreciate it.
00:45:02.822 --> 00:45:08.689
Uh, business podcast dot com for all the good information, all the fun stuff.
00:45:08.689 --> 00:45:14.555
And we're like, we're building some more stuff in this too, which is coming up and exciting.
00:45:14.555 --> 00:45:16.289
We'll have more details on that later.
00:45:16.289 --> 00:45:18.189
Some big events coming up.
00:45:18.189 --> 00:45:26.822
Um, speaking of big events, the next topic we're going to talk about is navigating the business crisis.
00:45:28.355 --> 00:45:29.855
You sound excited about this.
00:45:29.855 --> 00:45:31.255
Well, I was built for crisis.
00:45:31.255 --> 00:45:33.455
I think that's I'm dreading this one.
00:45:33.455 --> 00:45:35.622
So that'll be a good balance of things.
00:45:35.622 --> 00:45:38.389
Um, Chris, you'll just talk while I cry.
00:45:38.389 --> 00:45:40.289
Uh, do us a favor.
00:45:40.289 --> 00:45:41.289
Take care of yourself.
00:45:41.289 --> 00:45:43.389
If you can't take care of someone else, too.
00:45:43.389 --> 00:45:45.755
We will see you very, very soon.