Coach, Correct, or Cut? The Leadership Decision You're Avoiding

WEBVTT
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You were a national tap dance champion?
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Yes I was.
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I was a nationally ranked soccer goalkeeper at one point in time.
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Yes, we both saw people step into the studio, step onto the field where you're like, oh, no.
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And you know, you know the kid that I'm talking about, the kid that they had everything bought for them and they had less talent than this table we are using right now.
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Yeah.
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And those are the ones where, you know, that is a cut.
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Yeah.
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There's the ones that come in where you're like, hey, maybe okay, there's they can be on the team with me, right?
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Those are the ones that you can coach.
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Yes.
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Um, the other ones are ones that are the superstars that just need that little bit of correction.
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Yeah.
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This is we're starting off with a sports analogy for coach.
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Correct or cut.
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You got to figure out what you are doing with your employees because they need one of those three things.
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Stay tuned.
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She's the CEO.
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He's the marketing and operations guy.
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If it's broken, you need the business fix.
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We're still spring adjacent.
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Yeah, not even close.
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When do we believe the season has changed?
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June.
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I'm sorry, I don't believe.
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I don't believe in late April and May.
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No, I know June, I believe.
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I'm.
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June is when I'm finally not looking for snow anymore.
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Yes.
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Um, the weather is no longer managed by an intern.
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Correct?
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Correct.
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Correct.
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Uh, there's no longer a toddler with the petulant toddler up there just yanking on the rain.
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Snow?
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Warm.
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Cold.
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Exactly.
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Um, yeah.
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We don't we don't need toddlers.
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All the viruses that go through your body in this quarter.
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And it seems like everyone has been sick this year.
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Like.
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And more.
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Yes.
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Um, everyone like I just the other day I heard a friend like, hey, pneumonia.
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And I'm like, we didn't hear of that a while back.
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And no, this is, this is, this is a wild ride.
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Oh, the germs.
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Fun times.
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What a great way to start the episode.
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Chrissy talks to a germaphobe about the germs.
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I I'm just gonna spend the rest of the episode hiding underneath the desk.
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So go ahead.
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Sound good?
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We are talking about this week whether you should coach, correct or cut them.
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I had to stay with the three C's.
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I love that, I know that.
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I mean, it was your topic that you had put in the in the in the the list.
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And I thought, oh, and we've got a list of topics.
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Yeah.
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And uh, as I was going through it, I can tell which one Chrissy puts in.
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There's alliteration in all of them.
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Correct.
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So if you're ever looking for a hint whether Chrissy picked the episode topic or Josh, did you got your clue right there.
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Uh, with those three, I mean, it there's decisions in them that need to be made and they're always a tough decision.
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Yeah.
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Um, how do you handle this thing?
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I mean, first off, my answer is not usually screaming.
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Yeah.
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There's some people that think coaching is screaming.
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It's not it is.
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You're gonna define coaching, correcting and cutting.
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You want to kind of know I don't because I feel like we are gonna do that as we go through the episode.
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I know we've got that as a list in here, but I'm skipping right past.
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Sure.
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I love that move on.
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Right?
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Because to me, we've talked about how nice creates dysfunction.
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Like, hey, can you just go ahead and maybe do the, can you like, I'd love it if you'd do the thing right.
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Even just me saying that.
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I think you're gonna punch me.
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Um, Chrissy's.
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Chrissy's gonna get stabby here soon.
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from the HR from the CEO perspective.
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How does a leader distinguish between that skill gap, which is coachable, or a will gap which is correctable or the they just ain't got it.
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So we talk about that nice leader trap.
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We talked about it in a few podcast episodes ago.
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We talked about all the time we do how you kind of you're stuck in the gray because you just want to be nice.
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And we talked too about how clear leaders use clarity, consistency and care, those three C's of leadership to get out of it, right?
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So here's how I kind of coach it.
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So, you know, you start with clarity.
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Is the expectation crystal clear?
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Not do better.
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Don't just look at something.
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Do better.
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No, I've heard that I have to and it's not helpful.
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So it's not do better.
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But here's what good looks like and be very specific.
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And then you check the capability.
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Like can they actually do it?
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If they can't, it's a skill gap.
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And you coach and coaching is an asset building exercise.
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So you're investing in capacity.
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And then if they can do it and they're still not doing it, now you're in consistency territory.
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And that's the question.
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Like are they showing up the same way every time?
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If not, that's a behavior gap and you're going to correct.
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And then there's a hard one.
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And that's commitment.
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And that is, you know, do they want to do it this way here on this team or do they need to be somewhere else?
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And if they know what to do, they can do it.
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And then they're not aligning and they're not doing it.
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That's a will gap.
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That's not something that you can coach on.
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That's where you move from correct to cut.
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So to keep it simple, if they can't, you coach if they can.
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But aren't you correct?
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And if they can, won't and don't align you cut.
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Oh you even had the sound effect in there.
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Well done.
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Thank you.
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Well done.
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Yeah.
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And then that to me it's a it gives us pretty hard lines with that because this is something that so many people feel has gray area to it.
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with that.
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Like, how do you keep that consistency though?
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Yeah.
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You mean like building it?
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You don't fire people for what you fail to teach.
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You always make sure that you're teaching it.
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That's what I wanted to hear.
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You also don't keep people when they refuse to align.
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So again we talk about hostage negotiation in HR.
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You do not want them as a hostage in your business where they are hostile and they are not doing the thing at the same time.
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You should not be a hostage in your own business or as a manager trying to just you cannot, will or hope that they just get better.
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Hope is not a strategy when it comes to personnel.
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This reminds me of something.
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It's something that I know.
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I heard Jimmy Carr say it.
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Okay, we have control over absolutely nothing.
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That's correct.
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We have varying levels of influence over things.
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Yes.
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If you cannot influence them, you do the noise better as it relates to people.
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That is exactly what it is.
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I mean, you can you can control your emotions in the situation.
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You can control your reaction, but that's about it.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Most of the time I can.
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Yeah.
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There's some times where they're like, your face is red and it normally does not get red.
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Why why why is that color?
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Why is it that color?
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The thing that like the question for me is I've seen people where someone shows up, um, they're like, ah, they're not doing the job.
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Fire them.
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Yeah.
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Like, and I've seen a lot of people, good people get fired when that happens.
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Mhm.
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They don't get taught, they don't get training.
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They don't like.
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How do you first off, how do you know when it is the person and not.
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How do you know when it's the the worker and not the leadership?
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Okay.
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That's the problem.
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And then when is that decision made?
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Yeah.
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So are you talking about like, you know, avoiding sometimes where we avoid it?
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No, no, not at all.
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We don't avoid it.
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I will tell you.
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For me, there are times where I'll have conversations within my leadership team around personnel and they'll say, you know, this person isn't performing well.
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Why don't you let them go?
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And it's not because I immediately want them to be like, yep, let's fire them.
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I want to push them on.
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Are you complaining?
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Is this something that you've done as a skill gap or is it a will gap on the leadership side?
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Like, tell me why.
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Tell me why this person isn't working?
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Or you're complaining about joy in sales for for a while.
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Like, help me understand what joy isn't doing.
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And they're like, oh no, no, joy.
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Joy is joy following the process.
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No, she's following the process.
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Okay.
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Is this something that we have an issue in pipeline?
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Is this is this she's not doing the work or is this you haven't coached her in what to do?
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And so having those conversations I think is important.
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And you can kind of assess.
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I do not like that.
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When you just walk in and you're like off with their heads, like immediately we're gonna eliminate all these people.
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I think that's a different conversation.
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But I think as if you're a leader of leaders sometimes being blunt with them and saying, well, why don't you let them go is not a negative.
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If it's helping them dialogue and discuss the direction they are at the same time.
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If they're bringing it to you multiple times, or they're complaining about the same issue over and over and over, I'm gonna go, wait a second.
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You've complained about joy and sales six times in the last six weeks.
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Is that because you don't like training joy?
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Or is that because joy is not capable of doing the work?
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And then if it's like you complain, you've complained about her six times in the last six months, how are we like?
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Is she following the process of what she needs to do?
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That's that's where some of that comes from.
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That's interesting.
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I love the going to the why don't you get rid of them?
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Because that really that is a like, that's not what people are expecting.
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No, they want validation.
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Like, oh, I'm sorry, it's hard to manage people.
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No, that's I mean, yes, I can validate if I need to, but there's, there's times where that isn't necessary.
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Sympathetic is not in the studio today.
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And I'm here for it.
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I'm here for it.
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But no, it truly is.
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It's once again, it's putting the onus on the leader saying, have you done the things that you are supposed to do?
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Yes.
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Not.
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Are they doing the things?
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Have you done the things?
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Well, and then you really start shifting that space about what it does for high performers.
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So I think that a lot of times leaders unintentionally break the very thing they're trying to protect in their team dynamics and protecting those key performers.
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So they think that keeping a low performer is kind and we have to give people unlimited opportunities.
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Okay.
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Everyone gets a trophy, everyone gets a trophy.
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Everyone can be saved.
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I mean, I told we've had this conversation before where I've looked at people and said, you're not Jesus and you can't save everyone.
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You can't do it.
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Because what it does is with your high performers, it feels like confusion, compromise and collapse.
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You know, you got three more C's, so confusion, at least you are consistent.
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I am consistent.
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So here's for those high performers.
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That's when they see people continuously being rewarded for bad behavior, not being cut, not truly being coached.
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They get confused.
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So they say, you know what actually matters here?
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They're asking themselves, and if if this person is doing a terrible job, why am I working so hard?
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So that's confusion.
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Then there's compromise, which is, you know, they're asking the question, are the standards optional or are they actually real?
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And seriously, why am I caring so much for doing a good job if joy and sales isn't doing a good job too, right?
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And then there's collapse and that's collapse of trust.
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And that is, you know, if they really don't care about the standard, if my manager really just accepts mediocrity, it really doesn't matter what I do.
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I don't think I should adhere to the standards either.
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Or maybe I'm going to go adhere to the standards in another job so that like, it speaks to that psychological safety too, because sometimes people are like, well, we to give psychological safety, we need to make sure that everybody feels included and everybody feels safe.
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And that is not psychological safety.
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That is a safe space.
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And that is a totally different conversation that we probably, you and I will agree on, but other people may not.
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So you pay for a safe space, you pay.
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You don't get paid at a safe space.
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Correct.
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That is correct.
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And when we're innovating and we're doing a job, psychological safety isn't about protecting people from consequences.
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It's about protecting the integrity of the environment.
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So it's about making it a place where people can speak up when things aren't working, so that somebody can tell Joy she's not doing a good job.
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So it's what we talk about is, you know, people aren't working when things need to change.
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That's where a psychologically safe environment is.
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And so when your best people are consistently covering for someone else, they're not going to feel safe, they're going to feel unsupported, and then they feel abandoned and abandoned.
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People abandon your company.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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There's nothing more to say to that.
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Just yes.
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No other though.
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The only other thing I want to add is if your name is Joy, stay clear of Chrissy today.
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Sorry.
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Sorry, Joy.
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The abandonment piece I wholeheartedly agree with, because that is that thing where if it's not consistent, why am I working hard for this?
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Why?
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Why should I give up?
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Why should I put my talents here if they're not being appreciated?
00:13:43.572 --> 00:13:47.206
And you don't show appreciation with pizza, you show.
00:13:47.206 --> 00:13:55.940
You show appreciation by making sure that the right things are rewarded and the wrong things have consequences.
00:13:55.940 --> 00:14:00.406
You're exactly right, because avoiding that cut of that person doesn't preserve your culture.
00:14:00.406 --> 00:14:04.240
It pressures your best people to carry what leadership won't confront.
00:14:04.240 --> 00:14:09.306
Oh yeah, and nothing erodes safety faster than watching those standards get ignored.
00:14:09.306 --> 00:14:11.972
I feel like that needs to be framed.
00:14:11.972 --> 00:14:12.806
Yes.
00:14:12.806 --> 00:14:13.940
That's not shitty wall art.
00:14:13.940 --> 00:14:14.572
No it's not.
00:14:14.572 --> 00:14:15.572
That's really good wall art.
00:14:15.572 --> 00:14:15.940
Thank you.
00:14:15.940 --> 00:14:17.173
You should hang that up in your office.
00:14:17.173 --> 00:14:20.605
I might that may be intimidating to some people.
00:14:20.605 --> 00:14:23.340
I think your road safety faster than watching standards get ignored.
00:14:23.340 --> 00:14:24.740
Right.
00:14:24.740 --> 00:14:27.173
Caution tape crusty.
00:14:27.173 --> 00:14:28.773
Why is there caution tape on your office door?
00:14:28.773 --> 00:14:29.406
No reason.
00:14:29.406 --> 00:14:30.940
No reason.
00:14:30.940 --> 00:14:34.639
So how does a CEO like use that formal coach?
00:14:34.639 --> 00:14:35.039
Correct.
00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:37.472
Cut framework to eliminate that favoritism.
00:14:37.472 --> 00:14:38.406
Eliminate the.
00:14:38.406 --> 00:14:44.840
And once again, everyone's always worried about the legal risks because everyone's like, I'm gonna get sued.
00:14:44.840 --> 00:14:45.740
No one wants that.
00:14:45.740 --> 00:14:48.005
Yeah, but they say, I don't want to get sued, so they just avoid it.
00:14:48.005 --> 00:14:50.472
And that is the problem.
00:14:50.472 --> 00:14:51.340
I don't want to get sued.
00:14:51.340 --> 00:14:53.673
I'm gonna just hide under my bed or hide under my desk.
00:14:53.673 --> 00:14:54.806
That's that's not helpful.
00:14:54.806 --> 00:14:58.306
So this is where structure really becomes protection.
00:14:58.306 --> 00:15:01.206
So, you know, I am always going to give you a framework.
00:15:01.206 --> 00:15:05.039
I'm a girl who loves frameworks because frameworks make decisions factual, less emotional.
00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:07.273
So without a framework, decisions feel personal.
00:15:07.273 --> 00:15:08.673
I like them.
00:15:08.673 --> 00:15:10.673
So here's where here's where this goes.
00:15:10.673 --> 00:15:16.273
You create the framework around, you know, taking away those personal feelings of I like them.
00:15:16.273 --> 00:15:17.940
They've been here a long time.
00:15:17.940 --> 00:15:22.539
They're a top performer because if you have those, you're going to fall into a favoritism trap.
00:15:22.539 --> 00:15:25.673
And that's really where a lot of legal risk lives.
00:15:25.673 --> 00:15:29.972
So with the framework, we've got predictable, provable professional decision making.
00:15:29.972 --> 00:15:35.605
So we're going to anchor it again in three more C's, which are, you know, I didn't think there was as many C words there are.
00:15:35.605 --> 00:15:36.605
I well, I knew there was.
00:15:36.605 --> 00:15:38.105
I know there's one that's coming here.
00:15:38.105 --> 00:15:39.105
There's lots, there's lots.
00:15:39.105 --> 00:15:41.340
So here's and it's again, it's how we do leadership.
00:15:41.340 --> 00:15:42.840
So clarity, consistency and care.
00:15:42.840 --> 00:15:56.605
So clarity, we document the expectations up front because we love to document consistency is we apply the same standards to everyone and care is that we document the journey, not just the outcome.
00:15:56.605 --> 00:15:58.972
So this is where I say like, oh, that's different.
00:15:58.972 --> 00:15:59.639
Yeah.
00:15:59.639 --> 00:16:07.572
So I mean, we take the three C's of leadership and we also put them into the three C's of avoiding a favoritism trap, avoiding.
00:16:07.572 --> 00:16:09.240
And I like the fact that it's a trap.
00:16:09.240 --> 00:16:09.605
Yes.
00:16:09.605 --> 00:16:14.706
Because all I picture something out of like the quicksand out of like Scooby Doo or something like that, because it is similar.
00:16:14.706 --> 00:16:15.340
It is similar.
00:16:15.340 --> 00:16:21.206
I mean, if you don't want to remember the three C's and why you need to document, I want you to just remember these three words.
00:16:21.206 --> 00:16:26.206
Documentation is kindness because to be clear is to be kind.
00:16:26.206 --> 00:16:27.940
So it's on paper.
00:16:27.940 --> 00:16:28.806
It should be consistent.
00:16:28.806 --> 00:16:29.906
It should be consistent.
00:16:29.906 --> 00:16:31.005
It's easy to be consistent.
00:16:31.005 --> 00:16:31.273
Yes.
00:16:31.273 --> 00:16:37.906
So when you clearly are documenting what was coached and what was corrected and what improvement looks like, that cut is not shocking.
00:16:37.906 --> 00:16:39.505
It's sequential.
00:16:39.505 --> 00:16:41.340
So it's easy to walk there.
00:16:41.340 --> 00:16:43.673
It takes some of the emotion away.
00:16:43.673 --> 00:16:46.039
Not all of it because we're just we're human.
00:16:46.039 --> 00:16:47.472
It makes it factual.
00:16:47.472 --> 00:16:51.605
And we know that facts don't care about your feelings, but they can help you navigate those feelings.
00:16:51.605 --> 00:16:55.673
And it becomes the natural next step, not the sudden decision.
00:16:55.673 --> 00:16:56.740
So love that.
00:16:56.740 --> 00:16:58.440
Yeah, absolutely love that.
00:16:58.440 --> 00:17:05.605
And then, I mean, it's also where, you know, we talked about the brilliant jerk in some past conversations.
00:17:05.605 --> 00:17:09.339
This is also where like that brilliant jerk hits the point of no return.
00:17:09.339 --> 00:17:13.673
Because when someone refuses to align after the clear coaching and correction.
00:17:13.673 --> 00:17:15.839
Continuing to keep them isn't kindness.
00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:16.940
It's culture compromise.
00:17:16.940 --> 00:17:21.005
So then you are seeing it yourself of like, look, this is not working.
00:17:21.005 --> 00:18:22.559
And then from that risk standpoint, you know, the consistency protects you legally.
00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:27.326
That documentation protects you operationally and clarity protects you culturally.
00:18:27.326 --> 00:18:30.425
When it's documented, it's defensible.
00:18:30.425 --> 00:18:31.192
One hundred.
00:18:31.192 --> 00:18:32.059
Yes.
00:18:32.059 --> 00:18:34.192
And when it's consistent, it's trusted.
00:18:34.192 --> 00:18:35.160
So yes.
00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:35.792
Yeah.
00:18:35.792 --> 00:18:36.225
Yeah.
00:18:36.225 --> 00:18:41.960
So I mean, knowing my, my umbrella saying if I'm walking into a shitstorm, I want to know which way the wind is blowing.
00:18:41.960 --> 00:18:42.826
Yes.
00:18:42.826 --> 00:18:46.660
Like knowing which way the wind is blowing means you can trust it.
00:18:46.660 --> 00:18:47.460
Yeah.
00:18:47.460 --> 00:18:52.026
So when we're talking about some of these things, you know, when we coach, we're building capacity.
00:18:52.026 --> 00:18:55.125
When we correct, we're protecting consistency.
00:18:55.125 --> 00:18:59.259
And when we cut, we're protecting culture.
00:18:59.259 --> 00:19:07.160
And then when you lead with clarity, consistency and care, those gray zones of leadership and management disappear and leadership gets a whole lot lighter.
00:19:07.160 --> 00:19:07.759
Wow.
00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:08.660
All the C's.
00:19:08.660 --> 00:19:09.726
Wow.
00:19:09.726 --> 00:19:13.160
I feel like we should end there because I'm going to have a tough time.
00:19:13.160 --> 00:19:13.726
No you're not.
00:19:13.726 --> 00:19:14.726
No, it was it was.
00:19:14.726 --> 00:19:15.125
That was.
00:19:15.125 --> 00:19:17.593
I mean, there's a there's a lot of pieces to that too.
00:19:17.593 --> 00:19:25.192
And first off, somehow the way I don't know, like what you use for a thesaurus to pull all the C word.
00:19:25.192 --> 00:19:29.293
It's my insurance brain because everything's in.
00:19:29.293 --> 00:19:30.293
Everything's an acronym.
00:19:30.293 --> 00:19:31.893
Everything's an acronym.
00:19:31.893 --> 00:19:32.925
One hundred percent.
00:19:32.925 --> 00:19:33.925
Makes sense.
00:19:33.925 --> 00:19:40.160
The, the thing that the the brilliant jerk story, as I remember when I was someplace, they had a really good salesman.
00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:40.559
Yeah.
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:44.326
And the problem was, is he was sixty eight years old or seventy years old.
00:19:44.326 --> 00:19:44.992
Mhm.
00:19:44.992 --> 00:19:46.125
Great salesman.
00:19:46.125 --> 00:19:51.726
They had put so much stuff, and they had given him so much favoritism and let him break so many rules over time.
00:19:51.726 --> 00:19:52.226
Yeah.
00:19:52.226 --> 00:19:57.393
He was getting like fifty percent of the sales out of it was five salesmen.
00:19:57.393 --> 00:19:58.460
Yeah.
00:19:58.460 --> 00:20:00.460
What happens when he has a heart attack?
00:20:00.460 --> 00:20:01.360
Exactly.
00:20:01.360 --> 00:20:04.559
Um, they had just given him so much favoritism on that that.
00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:05.093
Yeah.
00:20:05.093 --> 00:20:07.326
And it opened them up to all sorts of issues.
00:20:07.326 --> 00:20:13.726
Or another point is you're building the organization, you've got a high performing sales person that will not follow a process.
00:20:13.726 --> 00:20:17.692
Oh, so you are rebuilding the processes around them.
00:20:17.692 --> 00:20:18.925
That's what I have to.
00:20:18.925 --> 00:20:19.826
And that.
00:20:19.826 --> 00:20:22.192
oh, I've been I've been that person.
00:20:22.192 --> 00:20:24.992
I did it wrong because then it became a problem for everybody.
00:20:24.992 --> 00:20:35.893
It's like I should never, as a CEO, as a manager, as a leader, you should never be in the organization thinking, how do I get where I really want to go and avoid having to deal with Bob?
00:20:35.893 --> 00:20:36.259
Right?
00:20:36.259 --> 00:20:41.593
Like that's not if that is what you're doing, that should be a red flag to you that there's a problem.
00:20:41.593 --> 00:20:42.660
I mean, like danger.
00:20:42.660 --> 00:20:45.492
Will Robinson stop.
00:20:45.492 --> 00:20:59.160
What I found interesting with that is the manager was doing all of the technical stuff for the salesperson, so he couldn't he didn't have the time to answer technical questions for any of the other salespeople.
00:20:59.160 --> 00:20:59.726
Yes.
00:20:59.726 --> 00:21:03.726
And then when something would get messed up, suddenly it's the Salesperson's fault.
00:21:03.726 --> 00:21:06.726
That's like, whoa, we tried to ask and you didn't.
00:21:06.726 --> 00:21:09.192
Yeah, yeah, we we have to go paperless.
00:21:09.192 --> 00:21:10.360
This is this is crazy.
00:21:10.360 --> 00:21:12.293
Like twenty plus years ago.
00:21:12.293 --> 00:21:13.259
We have to go paperless.
00:21:13.259 --> 00:21:16.526
How can we make sure that Bob still has his filing cabinet?
00:21:16.526 --> 00:21:18.793
Like, no, no. Did it wrong?
00:21:18.793 --> 00:21:20.992
No. So joy and Bob.
00:21:20.992 --> 00:21:21.925
Joy and Bob.
00:21:24.293 --> 00:21:25.226
Is what it is.
00:21:25.226 --> 00:21:25.925
Be very aware.
00:21:25.925 --> 00:21:27.026
Very aware of who you are.
00:21:27.026 --> 00:21:28.093
Yeah, where I am.
00:21:28.093 --> 00:21:30.160
If you see Chrissie, she.
00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:30.992
She's smiling.
00:21:30.992 --> 00:21:31.460
You're.
00:21:31.460 --> 00:21:32.559
I mean, depending on the smile.
00:21:32.559 --> 00:21:33.026
It's fine.
00:21:33.026 --> 00:21:33.526
There's.
00:21:33.526 --> 00:21:34.992
I've seen the.
00:21:34.992 --> 00:21:36.492
I've seen the smile from Chrissie.
00:21:36.492 --> 00:21:37.860
That's like.
00:21:37.860 --> 00:21:39.960
I'm gonna lose it.
00:21:39.960 --> 00:21:40.492
This is not.
00:21:40.492 --> 00:21:42.393
I'm not going to because I want to talk about operations.
00:21:42.393 --> 00:21:47.759
And we talked a little bit about operationalizing documentation, but let's talk about some more things about how you want to operationalize.
00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:53.326
So how do you further operationalize the three C's, you know, the coaching correcting and the cutting?
00:21:53.326 --> 00:21:54.460
I gave you lots of C's.
00:21:54.460 --> 00:21:59.026
How do you make decisions based based on the leader dashboard?
00:21:59.026 --> 00:22:03.192
How do you operationalize three of the forty eight seats?
00:22:03.192 --> 00:22:06.160
Just, uh, coaching, cutting.
00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:06.992
Yes.
00:22:06.992 --> 00:22:11.293
No. For me, coach, the way that I look at it is from the operations piece.
00:22:11.293 --> 00:22:12.326
It's similar.
00:22:12.326 --> 00:22:18.059
It's coaching is when the SOPs followed, but the output isn't there yet.
00:22:18.059 --> 00:22:24.192
Um, and I'm going to say you've got the kid that shows up to soccer practice and can't.
00:22:24.192 --> 00:22:27.026
I mean, it's the slow kid.
00:22:27.026 --> 00:22:30.160
Um, okay, let's you need some more work.
00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:30.992
You need some more.
00:22:30.992 --> 00:22:31.992
You need some more sprints.
00:22:31.992 --> 00:22:32.726
You need that.
00:22:32.726 --> 00:22:35.192
I mean, we're going to spend some extra time with you.
00:22:35.192 --> 00:22:39.593
We're going to work with you on some of, like, the basic skills of dribbling or juggling or whatever.
00:22:39.593 --> 00:22:42.360
We're going to work on these basic skills with you.
00:22:42.360 --> 00:22:56.160
The, the big piece with that is you have to make sure that the how to and like the every step is clear and where they're headed, but you've got to make sure that all that is clear for them.
00:22:56.160 --> 00:22:56.960
Yeah.
00:22:56.960 --> 00:23:01.860
And if you don't do that, how are they like, how are they going to be able to get there?
00:23:01.860 --> 00:23:03.692
There's, there's no map for them.
00:23:03.692 --> 00:23:06.460
And so you've got to make sure you've got that in there.
00:23:06.460 --> 00:23:16.093
The big piece with that is what I like to say is mastery requires those clear written guidelines and shared expectations.
00:23:16.093 --> 00:23:16.893
Um, where?
00:23:16.893 --> 00:23:18.759
Like, where do I expect you to be?
00:23:18.759 --> 00:23:19.226
Yeah.
00:23:19.226 --> 00:23:21.559
I have to tell you.
00:23:21.559 --> 00:23:23.125
Tell is the word.
00:23:23.125 --> 00:23:24.860
You have to tell.
00:23:24.860 --> 00:23:28.226
This is where that documentation comes in.
00:23:28.226 --> 00:23:34.393
Because once again, if I say Bob needs to improve, what does improve mean?
00:23:34.393 --> 00:23:35.860
Um, you alluded to that.
00:23:35.860 --> 00:23:37.393
Like it needs a number.
00:23:37.393 --> 00:23:38.692
It needs a thing.
00:23:38.692 --> 00:23:42.125
There has to be an attached goal here.
00:23:42.125 --> 00:23:42.559
Yes.
00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:45.326
Otherwise Bob needs to improve.
00:23:45.326 --> 00:23:47.526
I don't know why I'm picking on Bob also.
00:23:47.526 --> 00:23:50.893
Um, Bob needs to improve is a moving goalpost.
00:23:50.893 --> 00:23:51.192
Yes.
00:23:51.192 --> 00:23:53.093
Because as soon as Bob gets a little bit better.
00:23:53.093 --> 00:23:54.393
Well, he's still not there yet.
00:23:54.393 --> 00:23:55.559
Well, he's still not there yet.
00:23:55.559 --> 00:23:59.726
Define expectations one hundred percent with a timeline.
00:23:59.726 --> 00:24:02.559
There has to be time attached to it because that's the other part.
00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:06.893
We need them to have X amount of dollars by when X amount of sales by when.
00:24:06.893 --> 00:24:08.692
Don't just say you have to do well.
00:24:08.692 --> 00:24:09.192
Correct.
00:24:09.192 --> 00:24:09.925
Define well.
00:24:09.925 --> 00:24:10.526
That's.
00:24:10.526 --> 00:24:16.160
And that's the thing that I think so many people miss about coaching a new employee.
00:24:16.160 --> 00:24:19.460
Um, they're like, are they going to come in and they're going to set up and they're gonna be good.
00:24:19.460 --> 00:24:21.059
Um, they're just gonna do their job.
00:24:21.059 --> 00:24:22.326
Right?
00:24:22.326 --> 00:24:26.326
Do your job is not instructional.
00:24:26.326 --> 00:24:29.360
That is not a clear expectation.
00:24:29.360 --> 00:24:32.059
It might be for you, but it isn't for anyone else in your company.
00:24:32.059 --> 00:24:33.660
As a business owner who built the business.
00:24:33.660 --> 00:24:34.492
Yeah, you should know it.
00:24:34.492 --> 00:24:38.660
Do your job means to you, but correct someone who you hired like forty eight hours ago.
00:24:38.660 --> 00:24:39.660
Do the job.
00:24:39.660 --> 00:24:40.492
What is the job?
00:24:40.492 --> 00:24:40.826
Right.
00:24:40.826 --> 00:24:41.360
What is the job?
00:24:41.360 --> 00:24:47.026
I mean, I know, I know what it says here, but it also says other assigned tasks at the bottom of my job description.
00:24:47.026 --> 00:24:47.425
Exactly.
00:24:47.425 --> 00:24:58.125
And if you have not given them clear onboarding instructions and you haven't met with them and told them, this is what you do for your job and you don't have documented SOP, that's just why are you setting them up for failure, right?
00:24:58.125 --> 00:25:04.860
Like, I know so many businesses where I would say week one, they, they expect someone to come in in week one, be it full tilt.
00:25:04.860 --> 00:25:05.726
Um, right.
00:25:05.726 --> 00:25:10.059
You should be producing the same things that the person that's been at this business for twenty years.
00:25:10.059 --> 00:25:10.460
Yeah.
00:25:10.460 --> 00:25:13.593
Um, and when I say week one.
00:25:13.593 --> 00:25:18.192
Um, I've been to places where they're like, hey, welcome to our company.
00:25:18.192 --> 00:25:21.326
Here's fifty two hours of training videos for you to watch.
00:25:21.326 --> 00:25:22.992
Good luck.
00:25:22.992 --> 00:25:25.860
And then we ask you tomorrow if you watched them all.
00:25:25.860 --> 00:25:27.425
Correct?
00:25:27.425 --> 00:25:28.759
Correct.
00:25:28.759 --> 00:25:30.526
Um, are you ready to take your quiz?
00:25:30.526 --> 00:25:31.526
Right.
00:25:31.526 --> 00:25:32.559
Right.
00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:37.026
How do you expect me to sit there for this and not fall asleep?
00:25:37.026 --> 00:25:38.026
Um, yeah.
00:25:38.026 --> 00:25:52.860
So like to me, you have to look at the if you are hiring skilled people, it's going to take a while to not only acquire the way that you do things, but to work within your culture, to work within your company, to do how those to do those things.
00:25:52.860 --> 00:25:53.360
Right.
00:25:53.360 --> 00:25:54.326
Yeah.
00:25:54.326 --> 00:26:00.326
The, the solution on the coaching side, it is an investment in a training context is the way I like to put it.
00:26:00.326 --> 00:26:03.660
It's I mean, you are building a better part for the machine.
00:26:03.660 --> 00:26:05.125
The part is the person.
00:26:05.125 --> 00:26:06.759
The machine is your company.
00:26:06.759 --> 00:26:07.026
Yeah.
00:26:07.026 --> 00:26:08.759
That's that's all there is to it.
00:26:08.759 --> 00:26:15.925
Um, this is where you spend your leadership bandwidth to increase future return on investment.
00:26:15.925 --> 00:26:16.692
That's this.
00:26:16.692 --> 00:26:19.692
This is this is bang for the buck.
00:26:19.692 --> 00:26:19.925
Yeah.
00:26:19.925 --> 00:26:20.692
Do the work.
00:26:20.692 --> 00:26:21.093
Right.
00:26:21.093 --> 00:26:23.226
This is this is the definition of bang for the buck.
00:26:23.226 --> 00:26:25.960
This is where you invest and you get back.
00:26:25.960 --> 00:26:26.559
Yes.
00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:28.160
Um, there's gold here.
00:26:28.160 --> 00:26:32.259
There's there's a lot of good gold here in coaching your employees.
00:26:32.259 --> 00:26:35.759
You just have to make sure on what you're coaching them towards.
00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:38.059
If it's soccer, it's winning the championship.
00:26:38.059 --> 00:26:48.460
I mean, that's there's the sports, the sports analogy, I would say to you to that point too, Josh, don't get mad when they ask you questions like, how do you do that?
00:26:48.460 --> 00:26:50.093
How does this work?
00:26:50.093 --> 00:26:51.425
How can I?
00:26:51.425 --> 00:26:58.960
I love it when they ask questions because to me that says, hey, you didn't do this clearly or you didn't tell me or I don't understand.
00:26:58.960 --> 00:26:59.425
Correct?
00:26:59.425 --> 00:26:59.925
Yes.
00:26:59.925 --> 00:27:01.893
I don't know what I missed.
00:27:01.893 --> 00:27:03.759
Um, because to me, I know it all.
00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:07.125
Yeah, that doesn't sound right to me.
00:27:07.125 --> 00:27:10.125
I, I know everything that I'm trying to convey to them.
00:27:10.125 --> 00:27:10.559
Yes.
00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:12.360
I may not have conveyed it to them.
00:27:12.360 --> 00:27:14.059
No. And people learn different ways.
00:27:14.059 --> 00:27:14.860
That's the other part.
00:27:14.860 --> 00:27:17.759
Like it's really fun when you're like, here, go listen to all of these things.
00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:21.226
If they're not an auditory learner, you're probably not.
00:27:21.226 --> 00:27:22.726
They're not going to excel at this.
00:27:22.726 --> 00:27:26.860
So it's like you have to be able to meet them with their learning style.
00:27:26.860 --> 00:27:28.125
You and I have talked about that.
00:27:28.125 --> 00:27:30.326
I mean, we both learn very, very differently.
00:27:30.326 --> 00:27:30.826
Yes.
00:27:30.826 --> 00:27:34.192
Um, I've got a I have to stick my hand on the stove.
00:27:34.192 --> 00:27:35.160
Mhm.
00:27:35.160 --> 00:27:36.860
Oh, that did hurt.
00:27:36.860 --> 00:27:40.660
Um, by the fourth or fifth time I figure out I probably shouldn't do that.
00:27:43.593 --> 00:27:48.226
To me, the correction is when our second SI correction.
00:27:48.226 --> 00:27:50.059
It's that compliance problem.
00:27:50.059 --> 00:27:59.793
This when I see this happen, it's when the process gets bypassed for speed, comfort, or I know better.
00:27:59.793 --> 00:28:04.793
Um, not that anyone I've worked with, anyone that ever has an ego or anything.
00:28:04.793 --> 00:28:06.759
Um, and once again, that's a boundary issue.
00:28:06.759 --> 00:28:07.925
That's not a skill issue.
00:28:07.925 --> 00:28:10.326
They, they know, I mean, they're good.
00:28:10.326 --> 00:28:12.125
They're cranking stuff out.
00:28:12.125 --> 00:28:14.692
This is when we get to do this.
00:28:14.692 --> 00:28:19.226
The the famous thing, the sweaty ten minute conversation favorite, right?
00:28:19.226 --> 00:28:20.492
You don't need to teach him how to do it.
00:28:20.492 --> 00:28:21.492
They already know how to do it.
00:28:21.492 --> 00:28:24.026
And I mean, if they need a review on the process, sure.
00:28:24.026 --> 00:28:24.860
Go ahead and give them that.
00:28:24.860 --> 00:28:25.259
Yeah.
00:28:25.259 --> 00:28:27.026
You are reestablishing that.
00:28:27.026 --> 00:28:31.293
The SOPs are a non-negotiable standard.
00:28:31.293 --> 00:28:34.925
Now, what I will say with this is there is the better way.
00:28:34.925 --> 00:28:37.460
Cautionary note that I like to put in with this.
00:28:37.460 --> 00:28:43.960
Sometimes an employee will circumnavigate the SOP because they think they found the better way to do this.
00:28:43.960 --> 00:28:44.960
Yeah.
00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:50.559
Um, I may have been guilty of this throughout my entire career.
00:28:50.559 --> 00:28:52.726
Same, same.
00:28:52.726 --> 00:29:01.326
The problem is, is even if the results are good, there's a you have to have that correction moment because first off, they bypassed the process without correcting the system.
00:29:01.326 --> 00:29:09.160
The two things that I see with that is in many cases, they don't know how it affects people down the line?
00:29:09.160 --> 00:29:10.692
No, it made it easier for them.
00:29:10.692 --> 00:29:11.593
It made it smoother for them.
00:29:11.593 --> 00:29:12.460
It made it simpler for them.
00:29:12.460 --> 00:29:14.860
And they're like, great, this, this is awesome.
00:29:14.860 --> 00:29:21.460
They don't realize that it leaves off one nut that the person down the line can't get to to put on.
00:29:21.460 --> 00:29:27.093
So that is the, that's the thing that we always have to be aware of that they aren't aware of.
00:29:27.093 --> 00:29:32.660
Yeah, I on the flip side of that, though, I don't want to quash like instantly quash.
00:29:32.660 --> 00:29:37.726
If they found a simpler way to do something, I at least want to hear them out.
00:29:37.726 --> 00:29:38.692
Absolutely.
00:29:38.692 --> 00:29:44.660
The problem is, is I don't want to be like, oh, you found a better way to do it and you've gone outside the process.
00:29:44.660 --> 00:29:45.960
That's wonderful.
00:29:45.960 --> 00:29:54.093
No, no, you have to find the right way to address that to be like, hey, thank you for finding a better way to do this, but tell me.
00:29:54.093 --> 00:29:57.360
Yeah, because we have to look at this process ahead of time.
00:29:57.360 --> 00:30:06.026
Now, the flip side to that that I have seen as an employee in so many cases is when management's just like, nah, I hate that.
00:30:06.026 --> 00:30:06.726
Right?
00:30:06.726 --> 00:30:10.526
Like you, you have to be willing to put in the time and effort to look at it.
00:30:10.526 --> 00:30:11.360
Yes.
00:30:11.360 --> 00:30:14.326
Um, yeah, you have to be willing to do that.
00:30:14.326 --> 00:30:15.759
It's it's saving you.
00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:16.192
It is.
00:30:16.192 --> 00:30:18.393
And this is again, part of psychological safety.
00:30:18.393 --> 00:30:27.125
So when you've got someone in the organization that innovates without permission, that is a help me understand how this works.
00:30:27.125 --> 00:30:30.326
Help me understand not not what were you thinking?
00:30:30.326 --> 00:30:32.226
Don't don't start that way.
00:30:32.226 --> 00:30:40.026
Help me understand your your frame of mind and and why you're doing it this way and not from a place of like anger or frustration.
00:30:40.026 --> 00:30:45.360
You may have it internally, but don't do that initially and then have the conversation with them.
00:30:45.360 --> 00:30:56.759
Part of where I think sometimes people get wrapped up and don't pay attention to what can happen further down the line, is when they haven't been trained on what the big picture for the organization is.
00:30:56.759 --> 00:30:57.160
Correct.
00:30:57.160 --> 00:31:01.726
So if you're already trained on that, then they're usually less likely to do it.
00:31:01.726 --> 00:31:03.960
Or they'll say, hey, I'm thinking about doing this.
00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:05.593
And then it's a dialogue.
00:31:05.593 --> 00:31:06.059
correct.
00:31:06.059 --> 00:31:07.293
So you should never.
00:31:07.293 --> 00:31:16.726
I mean, if someone does something and it causes a problem further down the line, that should be an indication to you that maybe we haven't trained on big picture as an organization.
00:31:16.726 --> 00:31:29.259
The only other things that the other things that I see with it is, first off, I've seen where like I've walked into places where there's the SOPs and then there's what actually happens.
00:31:29.259 --> 00:31:32.660
Um, what I like to call the like you're talking about government, right?
00:31:32.660 --> 00:31:33.026
Right.
00:31:33.026 --> 00:31:34.425
There's the shadow SOPs.
00:31:34.425 --> 00:31:35.026
Yes.
00:31:35.026 --> 00:31:43.593
Um, a lot of those come from what I like to call like the scope creep or a broken foundation where like, it's, it's just one step off.
00:31:43.593 --> 00:31:44.393
I'll do this.
00:31:44.393 --> 00:31:45.692
It's just one step off.
00:31:45.692 --> 00:31:47.692
And if you don't review those things.
00:31:47.692 --> 00:31:48.393
Yes.
00:31:48.393 --> 00:31:54.793
Five years down the line, you're I mean, you're pointed in two opposite directions in terms of how this gets handled.
00:31:54.793 --> 00:32:00.793
Um, and it just becomes the norm, even though you go into the filing cabinet and you look at how are we supposed to do this?
00:32:00.793 --> 00:32:04.925
And you're like, oh, like half these people don't even work here anymore.
00:32:04.925 --> 00:32:05.726
Yeah.
00:32:05.726 --> 00:32:10.026
What's your what's your cadence of SOP best practice and going over?
00:32:10.026 --> 00:32:13.660
I mean, there's certain things that we go over quarterly and there's certain things that we go over once a year.
00:32:13.660 --> 00:32:14.960
But what what have you found?
00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:17.393
We look at most stuff quarterly just because of the fact.
00:32:17.393 --> 00:32:21.026
I mean, with the podcasting stuff, things are evolving so quickly.
00:32:21.026 --> 00:32:23.226
There's so many tools that are coming out.
00:32:23.226 --> 00:32:26.992
We want to look at stuff quarterly just to be like, and we don't give it.
00:32:26.992 --> 00:32:32.326
Uh, I mean, this is not a two day retreat.
00:32:32.326 --> 00:32:34.125
Yeah, this is an hour long meeting.
00:32:34.125 --> 00:32:34.992
Um, okay.
00:32:34.992 --> 00:32:35.593
Hey, what do you see?
00:32:35.593 --> 00:32:36.192
And what are you seeing?
00:32:36.192 --> 00:32:36.793
What are you seeing?
00:32:36.793 --> 00:32:37.093
What?
00:32:37.093 --> 00:32:38.093
What's happening over here?
00:32:38.093 --> 00:32:39.526
What's happening over here?
00:32:39.526 --> 00:32:41.593
And everyone knows why they're coming.
00:32:41.593 --> 00:32:45.593
I tell people, if you do not come to this meeting with something, don't come.
00:32:45.593 --> 00:32:49.860
Um, if you don't have a question, if you don't see something different, don't come.
00:32:49.860 --> 00:32:51.093
It's that simple.
00:32:51.093 --> 00:32:53.492
Um, you should have something to offer.
00:32:53.492 --> 00:32:55.992
Um, the last is the cut.
00:32:55.992 --> 00:32:58.160
When the correction becomes a recurring.
00:32:58.160 --> 00:33:01.093
Like if it becomes operational debt for anyone else.
00:33:01.093 --> 00:33:06.026
And you said, hey, you've made the correction and it doesn't.
00:33:06.026 --> 00:33:06.860
Correct?
00:33:06.860 --> 00:33:07.893
Yeah.
00:33:07.893 --> 00:33:10.259
Um, you've got to make sure that you're clear.
00:33:10.259 --> 00:33:13.492
This is why I always say once is not a pattern.
00:33:13.492 --> 00:33:15.026
Um, you've made the correction.
00:33:15.026 --> 00:33:16.160
You've made it clear.
00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:16.660
Okay.
00:33:16.660 --> 00:33:17.793
Things should change.
00:33:17.793 --> 00:33:20.793
You readjust to say, hey, you've.
00:33:20.793 --> 00:33:22.259
We. I thought we corrected this.
00:33:22.259 --> 00:33:23.460
I thought we were clear on this.
00:33:23.460 --> 00:33:25.192
What part aren't you clear about?
00:33:25.192 --> 00:33:27.259
And when I say, oh, no, I got it.
00:33:27.259 --> 00:33:29.460
The next time it happens, guess what?
00:33:29.460 --> 00:33:30.293
Sorry.
00:33:30.293 --> 00:33:31.593
Bye bye.
00:33:31.593 --> 00:33:42.992
Um, and it's to me, like the the thing that I have found and what this structure gives you is when you talk to people like that, no one's ever surprised when you fire them.
00:33:42.992 --> 00:33:44.259
It should never be a surprise.
00:33:44.259 --> 00:33:45.160
It should never ever.
00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:47.660
And we've talked about that previously.
00:33:47.660 --> 00:33:48.059
No one.
00:33:48.059 --> 00:33:51.293
And I've never fired someone where it was a surprise to them.
00:33:51.293 --> 00:33:53.893
I'm like, hey, you did this wrong again.
00:33:53.893 --> 00:33:57.259
You know, you're supposed to do it this way and you specifically did it that way.
00:33:57.259 --> 00:33:58.992
Oh yeah, I guess I was shortcutting.
00:33:58.992 --> 00:34:01.425
Okay, don't don't do it again.
00:34:01.425 --> 00:34:02.125
Happens again.
00:34:02.125 --> 00:34:02.793
Guess what?
00:34:02.793 --> 00:34:05.059
They know what they did.
00:34:05.059 --> 00:34:05.860
Bye bye.
00:34:05.860 --> 00:34:10.826
It is the I like the the attitude of we are pruning for growth.
00:34:10.826 --> 00:34:11.726
Oh, I like that.
00:34:11.726 --> 00:34:20.860
I love that you may have had to just chop off a ginormous branch, but if it's if it's preventing it from growing, guess what?
00:34:20.860 --> 00:34:21.793
You got to do that.
00:34:21.793 --> 00:34:22.125
Yeah.
00:34:22.125 --> 00:34:24.159
And that's that's what you have to do.
00:34:24.159 --> 00:34:31.659
The other thing that I like to talk about real quick from a marketing perspective is you need to look at your marketing with the three C's.
00:34:31.659 --> 00:34:36.925
Also, the problem is that so many people go to marketing with just, hey, we're going to market.
00:34:38.992 --> 00:34:41.259
What, what are your goals?
00:34:41.259 --> 00:34:45.259
More business specifically?
00:34:45.259 --> 00:34:46.460
Can you be specific?
00:34:46.460 --> 00:34:47.659
Not just more business.
00:34:47.659 --> 00:34:48.393
Correct.
00:34:48.393 --> 00:34:52.625
The other thing that I see with that is most people, they want more business next week.
00:34:52.625 --> 00:34:53.460
Yes.
00:34:53.460 --> 00:34:57.159
Because when, when, when do people up their marketing when they're not busy?
00:34:57.159 --> 00:34:57.659
Exactly.
00:34:57.659 --> 00:35:01.826
As soon as they're busy, they completely forget about marketing until they get more capacity.
00:35:01.826 --> 00:35:05.025
And then they're like, oh, hey, I need to do some marketing.
00:35:05.025 --> 00:35:10.525
It's one of those things where you need to, you need to look at the coaching, your marketing.
00:35:10.525 --> 00:35:16.359
Are you just like, ah, are you adjusting what you, what you already have?
00:35:16.359 --> 00:35:18.059
Yeah, correct.
00:35:18.059 --> 00:35:20.425
Are we headed down the wrong path with this?
00:35:20.425 --> 00:35:24.625
Um, do we need to really adjust or are we just doing this completely wrong?
00:35:24.625 --> 00:35:34.492
Um, there's there's that, there's the nudge, the big bump, and then there's the no. Uh, yeah, those are the three steps with marketing to me.
00:35:34.492 --> 00:35:49.292
Um, the, the most expensive, like a leader's time is the most expensive marketing spend in the company when we're doing like when we're doing the podcast like this, this is tremendously expensive for our businesses.
00:35:49.292 --> 00:35:50.159
Yes it is.
00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:53.025
Yes, it is.
00:35:53.025 --> 00:35:59.925
And I mean, it depends on the day because when I look at my hourly rate within the business, um, there are some days where it's about a buck ninety eight.
00:36:03.359 --> 00:36:06.225
But most days it is not.
00:36:06.225 --> 00:36:15.592
So when when as a leader, you're looking at that marketing, you have to be able to look at these three C's from that, and you have to be able to look at the data in that.
00:36:15.592 --> 00:36:18.459
That is the the biggest thing with that.
00:36:18.459 --> 00:36:23.992
That being said, what happens when you have the promoted.
00:36:23.992 --> 00:36:33.459
Were we we had a we had a viral Instagram clip of you saying like, hey, if you if you don't train them and you promote them, you're the idiot.
00:36:33.459 --> 00:36:34.059
Yes.
00:36:34.059 --> 00:36:37.059
Um, do like you promote someone.
00:36:37.059 --> 00:36:42.025
Do you coach them into management or do you, did you not make the correct decision?
00:36:42.025 --> 00:36:44.025
Like how do you like.
00:36:44.025 --> 00:36:44.959
Oh, yeah.
00:36:44.959 --> 00:36:49.725
So you gotta, I can I can you tell we're dealing with this?
00:36:49.725 --> 00:36:53.859
I was just about to say that was the.
00:36:53.859 --> 00:36:55.725
Damn it.
00:36:55.725 --> 00:36:56.625
It's coming.
00:36:56.625 --> 00:37:00.559
All right, so you have to slow down and you have to separate potential from placement.
00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:04.725
So promoted doer isn't automatically a failed manager.
00:37:04.725 --> 00:37:07.292
They're usually someone in the middle of an identity shift.
00:37:07.292 --> 00:37:07.759
Yes.
00:37:07.759 --> 00:37:11.859
So the first question isn't was this the wrong decision?
00:37:11.859 --> 00:37:14.425
It's did we prepare them for the new role?
00:37:14.425 --> 00:37:14.859
Correct.
00:37:14.859 --> 00:37:17.725
Because promoting someone without leadership training is irresponsible.
00:37:17.725 --> 00:37:19.559
I will continue to say that, yes.
00:37:19.559 --> 00:37:21.025
So is that your ringtone now?
00:37:21.025 --> 00:37:22.559
That is going to be my ringtone.
00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:23.725
It is our viral post.
00:37:23.725 --> 00:37:26.059
Promoting someone without leadership training is irresponsible.
00:37:26.059 --> 00:37:27.425
I will continue to say it again.
00:37:27.425 --> 00:37:31.892
So if you you've you've done the clear coaching.
00:37:31.892 --> 00:37:34.825
Okay, so you've realized, okay, maybe there's a capability gap.
00:37:34.825 --> 00:37:36.259
So that's when you're going to coach.
00:37:36.259 --> 00:37:39.459
That means you give them training, you give them structure, you give them support.
00:37:39.459 --> 00:37:40.825
Leadership is a skill set.
00:37:40.825 --> 00:37:42.959
Leadership is not a personality test.
00:37:42.959 --> 00:38:24.655
No, I know that sometimes people think like, oh, we're just promote them and they will just grow leadership skills.
00:38:24.655 --> 00:38:26.555
It'll just happen as soon as we promote them.
00:38:26.555 --> 00:38:29.155
We'll just water them the job, the job title changes.
00:38:29.155 --> 00:38:31.689
And they just instantly became it doesn't work that way.
00:38:31.689 --> 00:38:34.489
It's not like It rarely does.
00:38:34.489 --> 00:38:37.155
Like the title change and all the things change at the same parent.
00:38:37.155 --> 00:38:38.155
Like being a parent.
00:38:38.155 --> 00:38:45.489
That's like, we can debate on that too, but like, there are very few things where it actually like happens and it just changes immediately scientifically.
00:38:45.489 --> 00:38:46.489
As humans, we don't do that.
00:38:46.489 --> 00:38:51.722
So anyway, after clear coaching, if they're still resisting the role, they're avoiding accountability.
00:38:51.722 --> 00:38:54.355
They're defaulting back to doing instead of leading.
00:38:54.355 --> 00:38:58.789
Then it becomes a fit issue, not a skill issue, and that's when you have to correct the placement.
00:38:58.789 --> 00:39:04.089
So for me, I look at three things and they are do they understand the role?
00:39:04.089 --> 00:39:09.589
Do they have the skills for the role and do they want the role?
00:39:09.589 --> 00:39:17.689
Here's something else, Josh, that I think sometimes leaders do wrong when they promote people from like being a skilled doer into a leader role.
00:39:17.689 --> 00:39:21.722
They didn't ask them, I say, congratulations, you're getting promoted.
00:39:21.722 --> 00:39:26.322
And they're like, if they're silence or if they're like, what does that mean?
00:39:26.322 --> 00:39:32.722
If they're not like, if they haven't asked you how to, how to move up, you might want to ask them if they want to move up.
00:39:32.722 --> 00:39:36.822
And I have made that mistake and it was.
00:39:36.822 --> 00:39:38.222
Expensive.
00:39:38.222 --> 00:39:41.022
So it was really expensive.
00:39:41.022 --> 00:39:45.289
I mean, and if it's a no on that third one, there is no amount of coaching that is going to fix it.
00:39:45.289 --> 00:39:49.655
If they don't want to be a leader, they just want to be a skilled doer.
00:39:49.655 --> 00:39:50.822
Let them.
00:39:50.822 --> 00:39:51.189
Yeah.
00:39:51.189 --> 00:39:53.489
No, they, they, they want yes.
00:39:53.489 --> 00:39:57.655
They're gonna because otherwise they're going to go find the skilled doer job.
00:39:57.655 --> 00:39:58.655
Exactly, exactly.
00:39:58.655 --> 00:40:04.789
Because you can develop a leader, but you can't force someone to want to lead.
00:40:04.789 --> 00:40:07.355
I agree, totally, totally agree.
00:40:07.355 --> 00:40:09.855
I mean, that to me is the, the biggest thing.
00:40:09.855 --> 00:40:13.489
And people talk about leadership being this inherent quality.
00:40:13.489 --> 00:40:13.922
Yeah.
00:40:13.922 --> 00:40:19.122
Um, I've seen people that are really good doers that I mean, have leadership skills.
00:40:19.122 --> 00:40:19.589
Yes.
00:40:19.589 --> 00:40:28.689
That once they're put into leadership, once again fail because they don't have the training, they don't have the backing, they don't have the other items how to do it.
00:40:28.689 --> 00:40:35.422
They might be able to get a baseball team together, but they probably are not going to be able to lead your business well.
00:40:35.422 --> 00:40:40.955
And there's a difference too between, you know, give them the ability to lead in a successful way.
00:40:40.955 --> 00:40:47.122
Small first, give them small steps to see if it's even something they want to do.
00:40:47.122 --> 00:40:53.222
Because I've promoted people into leadership and they have thrived, and then I've promoted people into leadership and they did not want it.
00:40:53.222 --> 00:40:57.289
The cautionary thing that I will say on that do not mistake charisma for leadership.
00:40:57.289 --> 00:41:00.622
No. Oh my gosh, no. I've seen it so many times.
00:41:00.622 --> 00:41:02.622
So many people are like, oh yeah, great leader.
00:41:02.622 --> 00:41:03.755
I'm like, no, they're charismatic.
00:41:03.755 --> 00:41:05.222
People are attracted to them.
00:41:05.222 --> 00:41:07.322
They couldn't lead their way out of a paper bag.
00:41:07.322 --> 00:41:10.122
No, people, just people are attracted to them.
00:41:10.122 --> 00:41:12.155
They're not following them.
00:41:12.155 --> 00:41:13.222
Yeah, totally.
00:41:13.222 --> 00:41:14.222
Totally makes sense.
00:41:14.222 --> 00:41:16.522
Totally makes sense with that.
00:41:16.522 --> 00:41:21.589
Um, we, I, we talk about my core values success as a shared thing.
00:41:21.589 --> 00:41:31.589
Um, if the leader fails to cut a toxic person, um, I feel the leader is actually failing the shared success mission for the rest of the group.
00:41:31.589 --> 00:41:32.289
Oh, absolutely.
00:41:32.289 --> 00:41:34.689
How do you feel that go?
00:41:34.689 --> 00:41:36.522
Like, how do you feel that happens, though?
00:41:36.522 --> 00:41:41.255
Because most people are like, oh, well, like there's a toxic person there.
00:41:41.255 --> 00:41:44.255
Like, how does that fail the rest of the group?
00:41:44.255 --> 00:41:53.422
So I think as I talk about your core value, no, I want to hear your take on it because this is why we do this podcast.
00:41:53.422 --> 00:41:57.955
We get we get there from different places, but we have the same, same ideas about it.
00:41:57.955 --> 00:42:02.422
We do so for success to truly be a shared thing.
00:42:02.422 --> 00:42:07.955
I think it means that the environment has to work for everyone, not just the highest producers.
00:42:07.955 --> 00:42:10.255
So I think that's sometimes where we're like, success is a shared thing.
00:42:10.255 --> 00:42:15.189
As long as Betty and Accounting is doing really well and she's making everybody happy because she does all the really hard work.
00:42:15.189 --> 00:42:19.689
No. So but you have the environment has to work for everyone.
00:42:19.689 --> 00:42:27.789
So if if the one person that is the, the brilliant jerk or someone or anybody in the organization, if one person is creating tension, they're avoiding accountability.
00:42:27.789 --> 00:42:32.722
They're refusing to align and you don't do anything about it.
00:42:32.722 --> 00:42:34.855
Your best people are going to notice.
00:42:34.855 --> 00:42:44.722
So that success then creates some disengagement because they're watching and they're going, well, this person creates tension, this like and and Josh doesn't hold them accountable.
00:42:44.722 --> 00:42:46.989
So you know, why?
00:42:46.989 --> 00:42:48.089
Why am I here?
00:42:48.089 --> 00:42:51.222
So they, they disengage, they overcompensate or they quietly exit.
00:42:51.222 --> 00:42:58.722
It's funny because to me, I see the toxicity from that is they may be a big chunk of production in so many cases.
00:42:58.722 --> 00:43:04.089
Why I found they are such a big chunk of production is because they're hindering other people in their production.
00:43:04.089 --> 00:43:04.455
Yeah.
00:43:04.455 --> 00:43:13.722
They have they have gotten so many, uh, I guess I would say passes or they get, they get the free pass for the operational piece.
00:43:13.722 --> 00:43:17.822
They get the free pass for this piece, that piece or the other when no one else does.
00:43:17.822 --> 00:43:20.989
And that hinders everyone else in the organization.
00:43:20.989 --> 00:43:26.522
And I found that when you get rid of that toxic one that brings everyone else up.
00:43:26.522 --> 00:43:26.755
Yeah.
00:43:26.755 --> 00:43:28.222
Or that's just their personality.
00:43:28.222 --> 00:43:29.189
You just have to.
00:43:29.189 --> 00:43:29.855
I'm sorry.
00:43:29.855 --> 00:43:30.655
That person snaps.
00:43:30.655 --> 00:43:32.055
She snaps at everybody.
00:43:32.055 --> 00:43:32.855
So it's okay.
00:43:32.855 --> 00:43:34.122
It's shared snapping.
00:43:34.122 --> 00:43:35.855
No, that's not how that works.
00:43:35.855 --> 00:43:38.222
Shared success requires shared standards.
00:43:38.222 --> 00:43:41.722
So how do you think I would do if an employee snapped at me?
00:43:44.655 --> 00:43:47.355
I think that employee would be filled with regret.
00:43:48.455 --> 00:43:52.255
I feel like, why was there a street fight in the middle of the studio?
00:43:52.255 --> 00:43:54.589
The funny thing is, is what?
00:43:54.589 --> 00:43:58.489
When I have had someone snap and scream at me one time.
00:43:58.489 --> 00:44:05.622
Uh, a guy was in my face, um, just screaming at me, and I had someone that was watching it.
00:44:05.622 --> 00:44:05.855
Yeah.
00:44:05.855 --> 00:44:10.955
And they're like, the fact that you were so calm was pretty scary.
00:44:10.955 --> 00:44:11.455
It is.
00:44:11.455 --> 00:44:17.489
They're like, they're like, he's like screaming and looks like one of those inflatable things in front of a used car dealership.
00:44:17.489 --> 00:44:18.522
Two inches from my face.
00:44:18.522 --> 00:44:23.489
And I'm just standing there looking at him like, oh, yeah, yeah.
00:44:23.489 --> 00:44:26.955
As someone who has had lots of people because of what I do.
00:44:28.489 --> 00:44:30.055
Yell at me in different ways.
00:44:31.255 --> 00:44:32.422
I get it.
00:44:32.422 --> 00:44:36.555
That calm composure does freak people out.
00:44:36.555 --> 00:44:37.355
Yes it does.
00:44:37.355 --> 00:44:40.989
And it's one of the things that I truly love about it.
00:44:40.989 --> 00:44:46.455
That being said, uh, like to me, there's a couple of things that some people need to look at.
00:44:46.455 --> 00:44:52.689
So one is to like, I love the audit your fires.
00:44:52.689 --> 00:44:53.189
Yeah.
00:44:53.189 --> 00:45:01.989
Um, I tell people like, go back and look, if you've ever fired someone, why and what is the paper trail attached to that?
00:45:01.989 --> 00:45:06.589
Are you having the same problem over and over and over and over again?
00:45:06.589 --> 00:45:07.022
Yeah.
00:45:07.022 --> 00:45:09.189
If you are, why are you bringing these people in?
00:45:09.189 --> 00:45:19.555
Um, it is the same thing is that we all have that one friend that goes out with the same type of person every time, and they're always like, I don't know why it ended badly.
00:45:19.555 --> 00:45:21.189
Married four times and I don't know what.
00:45:21.189 --> 00:45:21.355
Yeah.
00:45:21.355 --> 00:45:23.455
I'm like, oh, right, right.
00:45:23.455 --> 00:45:26.455
You don't want to know because we've told you, right?
00:45:26.455 --> 00:45:27.722
You don't ask that.
00:45:27.722 --> 00:45:33.089
Like I'm hoping that's a rhetorical question because you don't want the answer to that.
00:45:33.089 --> 00:45:33.455
Yeah.
00:45:33.455 --> 00:45:37.955
What's another takeaway from I would say I mean, really simple, it's stop avoiding and start moving.
00:45:37.955 --> 00:45:46.322
So I think most of the time when it comes to correction, people, they avoid it for so long until it becomes something that they have to cut.
00:45:46.322 --> 00:45:50.455
Like because you never coached it, because you never corrected it, you don't have a choice but to cut it.
00:45:50.455 --> 00:45:51.655
Yeah, I agree.
00:45:51.655 --> 00:45:52.989
So stop avoiding, start moving.
00:45:52.989 --> 00:45:56.555
No love that absolutely love because too many people, they're waiting for the sign.
00:45:56.555 --> 00:45:57.722
They're waiting for the big sign.
00:45:57.722 --> 00:45:58.955
No you're not.
00:45:58.955 --> 00:46:00.522
You know, the heavens are not going to.
00:46:00.522 --> 00:46:01.322
They already have.
00:46:01.322 --> 00:46:05.389
The fact that you're dragging your feet is the indication that you just need to do it.
00:46:05.389 --> 00:46:10.189
There's not going to be a ha! No, no, I'm going to steal your saying.
00:46:10.189 --> 00:46:11.322
They're clear as kind.
00:46:11.322 --> 00:46:13.655
Tell the employee where they are at.
00:46:13.655 --> 00:46:19.555
I am coaching you on this skill or I am correcting this behavior.
00:46:19.555 --> 00:46:20.089
Yeah.
00:46:20.089 --> 00:46:28.222
Um, there is a very different tone between between those I am coaching you on this skill means hey, I really want you to improve.
00:46:28.222 --> 00:46:31.955
I am correcting this behavior means stop being a jackass.
00:46:31.955 --> 00:46:35.755
Yeah, either one can be really helpful.
00:46:35.755 --> 00:46:36.055
Yes.
00:46:36.055 --> 00:46:36.989
Use them both.
00:46:36.989 --> 00:46:40.089
One, I mean, and one that tells people where they're at.
00:46:40.089 --> 00:46:40.289
Yeah.
00:46:40.289 --> 00:46:44.089
And I would say, as you're being clear, documentation is not bureaucracy.
00:46:44.089 --> 00:46:45.689
It's a roadmap for success.
00:46:45.689 --> 00:46:46.822
Oh, yes.
00:46:46.822 --> 00:46:48.589
Just document it.
00:46:48.589 --> 00:46:49.355
Just write it down.
00:46:49.355 --> 00:46:55.055
It makes it so much easier for when you have to deal with anything else or you have the roadmap of like, yay, we documented this.
00:46:55.055 --> 00:46:57.389
And then all of a sudden your behavior changed and you became a rock star.
00:46:57.389 --> 00:46:58.822
Thank you.
00:46:58.822 --> 00:47:01.489
It's a really good thing regardless.
00:47:01.489 --> 00:47:02.822
Yes, yes.
00:47:02.822 --> 00:47:05.655
Michael Jordan did not make his high school basketball team.
00:47:05.655 --> 00:47:06.255
He practiced.
00:47:06.255 --> 00:47:07.189
He got coached.
00:47:07.189 --> 00:47:10.789
He got I think he got a little better at basketball just a little bit.
00:47:10.789 --> 00:47:13.289
Um, the other one too is the house on a bad foundation check.
00:47:13.289 --> 00:47:25.189
You cannot coach someone to fix a foundational problem that they are a if they are the one trying to shake the foundation, if they're like, hey, I'm going to go in here rogue and I'm going to build my own thing.
00:47:25.189 --> 00:47:32.722
No, no, no, no, no, no. If you've got fifty construction workers building a house one way and you've got someone else who's like, I'm going to make it out of brick.
00:47:32.722 --> 00:47:35.755
Um, does not work in the same sense.
00:47:35.755 --> 00:47:45.455
The other piece of that foundation is your s o s. Those are foundational to your company just as much as your core values, your and your mission statement.
00:47:45.455 --> 00:47:47.655
Yeah, just completely foundational.
00:47:47.655 --> 00:47:54.655
Um, can you ever move someone from the cut list back to the coach list?
00:47:54.655 --> 00:47:56.922
Yeah, but it's rare.
00:47:56.922 --> 00:47:57.755
It's really rare.
00:47:57.755 --> 00:47:58.755
And it's not emotional.
00:47:58.755 --> 00:48:02.455
It's intentional because, you know, people don't move back with promises.
00:48:02.455 --> 00:48:03.455
They move back with proof.
00:48:03.455 --> 00:48:08.789
So if someone's going to move back, you have to make sure that something material has changed.
00:48:08.789 --> 00:48:10.755
It's not because I feel like they're doing a better job.
00:48:10.755 --> 00:48:15.122
There's no feeling as only facts I feel like they're doing.
00:48:15.122 --> 00:48:16.889
I feel like they're doing a better job.
00:48:16.889 --> 00:48:18.189
They're doing a better job.
00:48:19.955 --> 00:48:24.689
So, um, Josh is a performance improvement plan coaching or correcting?
00:48:24.689 --> 00:48:24.855
Yes.
00:48:24.855 --> 00:48:26.055
I'm asking you the HR question.
00:48:26.055 --> 00:48:27.189
Yes, I love it.
00:48:27.189 --> 00:48:29.155
It's yes, yes.
00:48:29.155 --> 00:48:32.189
Um, because the like that is your documentation.
00:48:32.189 --> 00:48:32.455
Yes.
00:48:32.455 --> 00:48:35.422
From my perspective, that is your documentation one way or another.
00:48:35.422 --> 00:48:40.555
It is, uh, it's the, it's the same document for two different things.
00:48:40.555 --> 00:48:41.055
Yes.
00:48:41.055 --> 00:48:51.589
Um, this is why we, I mentioned earlier, you have to tell them, hey, this is to help you improve or hey, sign this because you're being an idiot.
00:48:53.422 --> 00:48:54.355
That's it.
00:48:54.355 --> 00:48:55.155
Make it easy.
00:48:57.055 --> 00:49:03.255
What's a red flag that says stop coaching and start booting him out the door?
00:49:03.255 --> 00:49:06.289
Oh, I love this.
00:49:06.289 --> 00:49:07.689
That's lack of ownership.
00:49:07.689 --> 00:49:08.489
Yeah it is.
00:49:08.489 --> 00:49:11.055
I mean, excuses, defensiveness, silence without change.
00:49:11.055 --> 00:49:12.289
Like it's not.
00:49:12.289 --> 00:49:13.022
I didn't do that.
00:49:13.022 --> 00:49:14.655
Nope, nope.
00:49:14.655 --> 00:49:15.489
Somebody else's fault.
00:49:15.489 --> 00:49:16.789
Nope.
00:49:16.789 --> 00:49:18.289
That generally becomes very quickly.
00:49:18.289 --> 00:49:19.055
You can tell.
00:49:19.055 --> 00:49:21.155
And it's not like a. That's not a feeling.
00:49:21.155 --> 00:49:25.622
That's a. You see it and you go, oh, it's so funny.
00:49:25.622 --> 00:49:30.355
I remember I made a change in my career when I started doing two things.
00:49:30.355 --> 00:49:32.455
I said, yes, someone asked me something.
00:49:32.455 --> 00:49:33.689
I just say yes.
00:49:33.689 --> 00:49:37.355
Um, the other thing was be like, oh yeah, no, I guess I did mess that up.
00:49:37.355 --> 00:49:39.855
Um, those changed my career completely.
00:49:39.855 --> 00:49:43.355
Now there was a couple of places that where that was not a viable option.
00:49:43.355 --> 00:49:43.789
Yeah.
00:49:43.789 --> 00:49:52.122
Um, if everyone is, I mean, if there's more finger pointing there than like the, what was the gun scene when the office when they're all pointing the finger guns at each other?
00:49:52.122 --> 00:49:53.422
Yeah.
00:49:53.422 --> 00:49:56.589
Um, that to me is the, you can't do it there.
00:49:56.589 --> 00:50:01.589
And so you got to make sure that your company is not that place.
00:50:01.589 --> 00:50:03.922
No. No one wants to be there.
00:50:03.922 --> 00:50:07.622
No, no, no one wants to work there, including you.
00:50:07.622 --> 00:50:10.555
Correct, correct.
00:50:10.555 --> 00:50:15.589
We spend far too much time in our businesses to not want to be there.
00:50:15.589 --> 00:50:16.222
Yes.
00:50:17.555 --> 00:50:20.455
That being said, thank you everyone for tuning in.
00:50:20.455 --> 00:50:23.422
Uh, business Podcast.com that is where people should go.
00:50:23.422 --> 00:50:23.922
Correct?
00:50:23.922 --> 00:50:24.489
They should.
00:50:24.489 --> 00:50:25.255
Yes.
00:50:25.255 --> 00:50:30.889
Um, the next episode, internal competition versus collaboration.
00:50:30.889 --> 00:50:33.522
Oh, this is, I'm excited for this.
00:50:33.522 --> 00:50:42.655
I am excited for this one too, because like, you want some competition, but you also don't want so much competition that they aren't willing to collaborate.
00:50:42.655 --> 00:50:47.289
So most people just sit on their hands and ignore it and hope it works.
00:50:47.289 --> 00:50:48.089
Yeah.
00:50:48.089 --> 00:50:49.322
Yeah.
00:50:49.322 --> 00:50:50.322
Do us a favor.
00:50:50.322 --> 00:50:51.222
Take care of yourself.
00:50:51.222 --> 00:50:53.255
If you can't take care of someone else too.
00:50:53.255 --> 00:50:56.189
We will see you very, very soon.