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What gets measured gets managed, even if it's pointless to measure and manage it, and even if it harms the purpose of the organization to do so.
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I have always thought of actually his way.
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I'm always talking about measurement, management, but I can only manage so many things.
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Therefore, I should only measure so many things.
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I think that's the core of what Scott's getting at.
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I was like, you over optimize, you create all these metrics.
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As soon as one or two are off, now you have a negative influence on your life.
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You have a negative input coming back to you.
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Like I'm doing this right now in an apartment.
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I'm eating payroll.
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I know that I don't need, but I would rather keep the engagement of the team high and long term grow into that.
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The qualification of modern life makes us play the games we can easily measure rather than the games we deeply value.
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If you actually are optimizing for the long term, it'll change the way you operate a team.
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It'll change the way you allocate capital.
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It'll change the way you communicate with customers.
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Every behavior will change if you're just like, is this a five-year decision or is this a 50-year decision?
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We're back.
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Welcome back.
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Another episode, the C-Suite Unfiltered with Mike Andes.
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How we doing?
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Fantastic.
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Good.
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I love it.
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Well, we're going to dive straight into it.
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No cold open here.
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I want to reference a recent newsletter from Scott Galloway.
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So a person that I like to get news information from, market information from, and I would say he's a modern day thought leader, you know, if we were to use that term.
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So let me read you the opening paragraph.
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I did write up kind of like a synopsis for anyone that didn't read this newsletter of his.
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I did send it to a couple of people, mostly a couple of young, younger men who are high performers because I thought it was an interesting perspective.
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So here's here's the opening paragraph of this article from Scott Galloway titled Optimization.
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Optimization.
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All right.
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What gets measured gets managed is often misattributed to Peter Drucker, the father of modern management theory.
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The full quote from business journalist Simon Colkin is a warning, not a promise.
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What gets measured gets managed.
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even if it's pointless to measure and manage it, and even if it harms the purpose of the organization to do so.
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In other words, our mania for measurement can obscure what matters most.
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Consider the optimization of health and fitness apps that trend those technologies enable.
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To a point, the more data we collect on ourselves, the better able we may be to improve our lives.
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But metrics aren't the arbiters of well-being, nor is optimization life's end goal.
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I believe this trend isn't about optimizing life.
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It reflects a growing obsession that's consuming life's purpose and meaning.
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So that is Scott's opening claim in this article, newsletter, whatever you want to call it.
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Basically, his point is that measurement is not bad, but in fact, measurement can be incredibly useful.
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Businesses need scoreboard, people need feedback.
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And if you want to improve something, you usually need a way to measure it.
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But he warns that things we measure can slowly start replacing the things that we actually value.
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So do you need any additional context?
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Do you have like an initial reaction to that opening paragraph and kind of the brief I just gave you?
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Well, what's funny is like I have always thought of actually his way.
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Like I'm always talking, yeah, measurement, management, but I can only manage so many things.
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Therefore, I should only measure so many things.
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I've actually always thought of it that way.
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Okay.
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So what about from a personal optimization perspective?
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Because, yes, he is obviously in the business world, but the article focuses a little bit more on personal optimization.
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So like your sleep scores, like your VO2 max, like your whatever fitness scores, your –
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your whatever measurables we want to get after that we are over optimizing for these scores or for these this peak performance that we're actually losing sight of what actually is valuable so what is your thought on like this personal optimization it doesn't have to be fitness and health obviously that's really big right now but just general personal optimization like what is your reaction to that i don't know you assume that it makes you happy to not do those things for some people like hitting the number is like that's that's their thing
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I think it becomes a problem if it has actually caused anxiety or stress.
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But for some people, being able to track their sleep score is useful from a health perspective, and they get more joy from it.
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It increases the quality of their life.
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If that's what they're optimizing for.
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True.
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They're optimizing for...
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enjoying that tracking process is what you're saying true but what about the people that obsess over it like we're and that's i think where scott's getting at the heart of like there's this fine line between doing it for you're optimizing for the sake of optimizing in the sense of this is a positive this will have a positive impact on me there's that but then there's the line of like we obsess over everything we're optimizing for that we lose sight of what we're actually trying to do yeah but you've made artificial scoreboards effectively
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Yeah, but optimization and obsession, you can use the same exact thing for business.
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It's like, well, is it healthy to track how much money in your bank account?
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Yeah, probably.
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But like, do you work 19 hours a day?
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Well, probably shouldn't do that.
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But I did it.
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Yeah.
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And like, it served my goals.
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So it's like, I think it depends on what your goals are.
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Mm hmm.
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Yeah, so the article really is asking, these are some of the notes I made, is what happens when optimization stops serving your life and starts consuming it?
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More importantly, the made-up scoreboard starts consuming you.
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What does consuming mean?
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I don't know.
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I didn't define that term specifically, but I think that's essentially what Scott is asking.
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Consuming meaning you obsess over VO2 max, you obsess over your sleep score, whatever.
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So you probably saw that Stephen Bartlett clip go viral.
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Okay.
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He was talking about this exactly, and he was getting dragged all over the internet.
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Yeah.
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Especially about red-pilled far-right guys.
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But it's very funny.
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So he talks about how he hasn't been drinking for over a year.
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Okay.
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And then he had three glasses of wine at a party.
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And his words, I think this is the direct quote, it wrecked me for three days.
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My sleep score was off.
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My VO2 max was off.
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My this was off.
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I podcast worst.
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I interviewed worse.
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And I'm like, OK, that is all consuming.
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You're telling me that three glasses of wine put you out for three days?
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Like, you're just like, dude, step up.
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Like take some ibuprofen, drink, drink some water and like go live your life.
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Like, I think that's a perfect example.
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This leaves perspective.
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It could be wrong.
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You could hate me.
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That's fine.
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But like his reaction to that is like he his optimization consumed him.
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Like you couldn't just have three glasses of wine, wake up like, oh, I kind of have a headache and just go about his business.
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Yeah.
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It let it affect him for three days.
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You cannot tell me that that is like a normal reaction.
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You can't.
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Yeah.
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Well, or, or is it the fact that he has numbers now because he has, but why?
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Like that's where, that's my question.
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That's what Scott's asking this article.
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And I don't even know if I fully believe this, but I'm just for the sake of conversation.
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That's why we don't podcast is for the sake of conversation.
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Yeah.
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Is why though?
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Like it wrecked him for three days because he's been tracking these scores for a year, two years, three years.
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So he made up a scoreboard and now he's upset for three days in a row that the arbitrary scoreboard he came up with isn't what it wasn't what he wanted it to be.
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And now it's negatively impacting his life.
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Well, it could be negatively impacting his life because his goal is to make more money and to make better podcasts.
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Right.
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And if it does damage that, now he has a number to track that.
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Like, I think the same, you could just switch all these things out for business.
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Like, if you check your, check how much money is your bank account, is that a bad thing?
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Like, if you obsess over it, like, yeah, probably.
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Like, you'll probably make better progress from a financial perspective.
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If you work more hours, yeah, is it not healthy?
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Probably not.
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But, like, you're probably in the middle of bigger business.
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And so like I think if Stephen Bartlett's goals are to be the best podcast in the world, having three glasses of wine, if it really does affect his performance and now he has metrics to prove it because he actually cares about what those metrics are, that's his prerogative.
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Here's my thought.
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If he never tracked his sleep score and he references his sleep score.
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Okay.
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If he never tracked it, you could just like how red pill, blue pill.
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It's like, it's like all based upon like how many times you reference your score.
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I said, and quote to someone the other day, if I ever tell you about my sleep score, punch me in the face.
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Like, I'm just like, I'm sorry.
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I'm not doing that.
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First off, not going to track it for myself.
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Second off, definitely not going to tell anyone publicly.
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And here we go.
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What's your sleep score?
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I only track one number of my sleep is how many hours I was.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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Fair.
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So but what I'm saying is if he had never tracked his sleep score historically, he wouldn't know he was in the red.
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He wouldn't know he was negative.
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So this is the question then is did he feel bad because the numbers were down for three days or did he already feel bad regardless of now?
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He has a metric to quantify it.
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Or does he just not get consumed by this optimization culture and realize like I had three glasses of wine because I was at a party with friends and I woke up feeling a little worse the next day.
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And that's OK.
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I had a great time last night with my friends.
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We have to assume that part.
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Maybe maybe the juice wasn't worth the squeeze fair in that.
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But then that's then that's less about the red wine affecting him.
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That's just him making a bad decision.
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True.
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So maybe he just needs to quantify whether his decisions are good.
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Right.
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That's what I'm saying is like this.
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And I feel like that's a good example.
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I don't know.
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But that's really what Scott's saying.
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And like I said, I'm making claims here.
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I don't know if I believe all of them.
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But I think it's interesting to discuss because like from a business perspective and you yourself, like you're performance driven, you're a metrics oriented person.
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I would say I am generally in a business sense.
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And you've said before one of the things that I thought was interesting.
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Like while I was reading the article, I thought of like, I guess I'll.
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famous quote of yours, but you said like a runner that makes progress is always out of balance.
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Technically, you've used that analogy before.
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And I love it because yes, jumping from one foot to the other is a, is an act of imbalance.
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You are jumping from one foot to the other, but you will make progress.
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And so I think the question that I came up with while reading the article and thinking about recording with you is like, when the imbalance, what, uh, when is imbalance, the price of progress and when is imbalance self-indulgent misery?
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Hmm.
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Like, what are your thoughts on that?
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What is imbalance the price of progress?
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And when is imbalance self-indulgent misery?
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Only Stephen Bartlett, in this case, can quantify the joy he gets from having that time with his friends versus the downstream effects that it has on his optimized life.
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And he has different weights of what he puts value on.
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And only he can determine which one is greater to him.
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For some people, they care less if the next day they have a hangover and they're doing a podcast.
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Take care less.
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Last night was so great.
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Yeah.
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But...
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Only he, so when he goes back and judges himself, his decision is bad.
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He is saying, this is the joy that I got from that night.
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And this is the incremental loss of joy that I got for the next three days of having loss of productivity.
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For someone else that's not geared the way he is or has different goals than him.
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They would completely change those, those quant, the same, the same exact stimuli, different quantities of joy and joy reduction.
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We're done joy reduction now.
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Let's go.
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No, I get what you're saying.
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I think that's the interesting part is that is the imbalance, like is this imbalance we're talking about, like this lack of optimization or this imbalance towards optimization, however you want to define it.
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It's only worth it if you understand your own goals.
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True.
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100%.
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All right, so Lee is making a great point here, and that is about your goals and being able to have progress markers towards it.
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I think of it like a football field.
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You have your end zone, the goal, and then you have hash marks all along the way, your yard lines to get there.
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And in business, a lot of us know our end goal, like how much revenue we want to do, how many employees we want to have, how many trucks we want to employ, but we don't actually know the hash marks or the metrics or the numbers to get there.
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And so you don't actually know if you're making progress.
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That's like your close rate, your customer acquisition cost.
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How much invoices are overdue right now?
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Using HomeWorks, you can know your numbers and be able to track your progress towards your goal.
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Now, what I'm really excited about is we are adding MCP access to HomeWorks, which means it connects your AI agent and you can just ask it in common English language, like, hey, is my close rate going up right now?
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from a lead attribution perspective, which marketing channel is producing the best results in terms of churn.
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These are things that in the future, you'll be able to just ask your AI agent, it'll go into HomeWorks using the MCP access, and we'll just deliver those reports right back to you.
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Talk about knowing where you're at on the way to your goal.
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So go check it out, go check out HomeWorks, lots of really cool stuff around this whole aspect of KPIs, but just be able to ask it in common language using your MCP.
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All right, back to the pod.
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And that's where it's subjective to everybody.
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Yes.
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And that's why this conversation people get mad at things we're saying because they're like, well, my goals are different.
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I think about it differently.
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And that's fine.
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00:13:12.843 --> 00:13:14.064
And not to defend Stephen Bartlett.
224
00:13:14.264 --> 00:13:25.337
It's just that his goals being the way they have is why he owns his net worth from a monetary perspective is more than 99.999% of the people that judged him on that post.
225
00:13:25.477 --> 00:13:52.586
110 percent that's why he is there yeah and the same but also like does that mean that his personal relationships are potentially less than everyone else watching yeah that's that's potentially true yeah he made that judgment call based upon his goals yeah and that's fair and that's that's not me like casting judgment on him specifically but i do think there is this this nebulous idea that like he said it wrecked me for three days where i'm like that's just not a human response like
226
00:13:55.387 --> 00:13:57.328
That you could have three glasses of wine.
227
00:13:57.829 --> 00:14:08.195
Let's just, like, I just don't think someone at his age, his physical abilities, like, he seems like a pretty fit guy, he takes his fitness seriously, that, like, three glasses of wine wrecked him for three days.
228
00:14:08.375 --> 00:14:09.436
I just don't believe that.
229
00:14:09.896 --> 00:14:15.780
Like, you can't convince me in an unmeasurable way that that actually wrecked him for three days.
230
00:14:16.140 --> 00:14:16.280
Mm-hmm.
231
00:14:16.993 --> 00:14:24.878
I think he made arbitrary scoreboards that now are telling him those are those are now inputs for him that he was wrecked for three days.
232
00:14:25.839 --> 00:14:26.479
Do you see what I'm saying?
233
00:14:26.499 --> 00:14:27.220
I see what you're saying.
234
00:14:27.560 --> 00:14:29.521
It's like, OK, here, I'll use a real world example.
235
00:14:29.641 --> 00:14:31.523
Once again, not me casting judgment on Stephen Bartlett.
236
00:14:31.563 --> 00:14:32.543
But here's a real world example.
237
00:14:32.844 --> 00:14:34.485
Two weeks ago, we had a leadership meeting.
238
00:14:35.025 --> 00:14:36.926
Liz looked at me and she was like, Lee, you look tired.
239
00:14:37.507 --> 00:14:39.148
And do you remember my reaction?
240
00:14:39.168 --> 00:14:39.268
Yeah.
241
00:14:40.216 --> 00:14:40.496
When?
242
00:14:40.896 --> 00:14:41.476
Two weeks ago?
243
00:14:41.496 --> 00:14:42.597
Two weeks ago we had a meeting.
244
00:14:42.777 --> 00:14:44.317
You and Liz came and sat.
245
00:14:44.717 --> 00:14:45.337
Oh, in the corner.
246
00:14:45.397 --> 00:14:47.858
And we were talking about your plans, which I don't know if we can talk about that yet.
247
00:14:47.918 --> 00:14:48.798
Okay, perfect.
248
00:14:49.238 --> 00:14:49.978
There's a little teaser.
249
00:14:51.559 --> 00:14:53.039
And she was like, Lee, you look really tired.
250
00:14:53.539 --> 00:14:56.760
And I got a little upset.
251
00:14:57.620 --> 00:14:59.500
In a joking way, like, oh, thanks, Liz.
252
00:14:59.560 --> 00:15:01.301
I really appreciate you telling me I look tired.
253
00:15:02.221 --> 00:15:07.469
But I thought about it after the fact, which I was like, why did I get like mad at her?
254
00:15:07.529 --> 00:15:08.090
I love it.
255
00:15:08.150 --> 00:15:10.073
I don't think about this stuff at all, dude.
256
00:15:10.093 --> 00:15:10.774
Totally fine.
257
00:15:12.116 --> 00:15:13.197
And I was like, why did I get mad at her?
258
00:15:13.217 --> 00:15:14.599
Like I was like, I kind of snapped at her.
259
00:15:14.619 --> 00:15:16.302
But in a joke, you like Liz and I have the rapport.
260
00:15:16.322 --> 00:15:17.043
It wasn't a big deal.
261
00:15:17.884 --> 00:15:18.905
And I was like, you know what it was?
262
00:15:18.945 --> 00:15:24.907
It's like I took an affront to that because like I when I'm here at work, I don't care what happened to me outside of these walls.
263
00:15:25.107 --> 00:15:26.828
I'm here to perform like I'm here to do a job.
264
00:15:27.228 --> 00:15:27.869
And so it upset me.
265
00:15:27.889 --> 00:15:29.089
That's like, oh, you look tired.
266
00:15:29.490 --> 00:15:30.950
Do you need to like take a break?
267
00:15:31.030 --> 00:15:31.691
Are you OK?
268
00:15:31.731 --> 00:15:32.411
Like, can we get you?
269
00:15:32.511 --> 00:15:33.571
It's like, dude, I'm here to work.
270
00:15:34.032 --> 00:15:40.695
And so for me, I know if I was tracking my sleep score, it would have been horrible the night before when she said I look tired.
271
00:15:40.895 --> 00:15:41.175
Why?
272
00:15:41.195 --> 00:15:43.496
Because my son slept horribly the night before.
273
00:15:43.936 --> 00:15:45.077
And as a parent, you got to get up.
274
00:15:45.097 --> 00:15:47.398
You got to do the whole song and dance, try to help him sleep.
275
00:15:47.598 --> 00:15:47.978
It's great.
276
00:15:48.018 --> 00:15:48.639
And I love my son.
277
00:15:48.659 --> 00:15:51.340
It's like I'm optimizing to help my son sleep.
278
00:15:51.460 --> 00:15:51.640
Right.
279
00:15:52.040 --> 00:15:55.662
But I also am not going to be upset when I'm tired the next day.
280
00:15:55.882 --> 00:15:58.924
I'd be like, oh, my son's sleep wrecked me.
281
00:15:59.064 --> 00:16:01.065
Oh, my sleep score was a 30.
282
00:16:01.125 --> 00:16:01.725
I don't even know.
283
00:16:01.845 --> 00:16:02.465
I don't even know.
284
00:16:02.565 --> 00:16:04.006
Is that is that is it an actual number?
285
00:16:04.146 --> 00:16:04.566
I don't know.
286
00:16:04.586 --> 00:16:05.727
Because I never tracked it.
287
00:16:06.007 --> 00:16:06.748
But you see what I'm saying?
288
00:16:06.768 --> 00:16:11.352
Like, I think when you when you over optimize, I think that's the core of what Scott's getting at.
289
00:16:11.372 --> 00:16:13.474
I was like, you over optimize, you create all these metrics.
290
00:16:13.514 --> 00:16:17.118
As soon as one or two are off, now you have a negative influence on your life.
291
00:16:17.138 --> 00:16:18.960
You have a negative input coming back to you.
292
00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:24.986
And now that messes with your psyche to then go out and just perform and just go out and get the job done.
293
00:16:25.286 --> 00:16:26.286
Do you see what I'm saying?
294
00:16:26.306 --> 00:16:26.406
Yeah.
295
00:16:26.426 --> 00:16:31.228
Like for me, when it comes to the metrics around health, I like to look at over the course of a month, like a week.
296
00:16:31.748 --> 00:16:38.810
But specifically the last three weeks, I do not look at myself because I don't want to have the negative association.
297
00:16:38.870 --> 00:16:40.090
I never want it to be a crutch.
298
00:16:40.130 --> 00:16:41.911
Like, oh, I only slept three hours last night.
299
00:16:41.931 --> 00:16:43.431
Therefore, I will perform badly today.
300
00:16:44.891 --> 00:16:53.494
I think it's just, yeah, it can be a reinforcing loop of negativity around like what I'm actually trying to optimize for, which is like living life and being super productive.
301
00:16:53.514 --> 00:16:54.074
Yeah.
302
00:16:54.355 --> 00:16:57.656
me knowing that's up three hours last night and I be careful today.
303
00:16:57.676 --> 00:16:58.436
You're going to be tired.
304
00:16:58.456 --> 00:16:59.737
I'm like, I don't think I need to see that.
305
00:16:59.797 --> 00:17:03.378
So I just won't even look at it, but I do like to see over the course of time.
306
00:17:04.998 --> 00:17:10.600
It is, it is, it is another just like thing to measure to be able to, to try to optimize for health.
307
00:17:11.280 --> 00:17:12.581
But to your point, I agree.
308
00:17:12.601 --> 00:17:12.941
I agree.
309
00:17:12.961 --> 00:17:13.382
We're coming.
310
00:17:13.402 --> 00:17:14.522
We get where you're coming from.
311
00:17:15.143 --> 00:17:17.484
And yeah, I just don't think about that much.
312
00:17:17.604 --> 00:17:17.785
Yeah.
313
00:17:18.485 --> 00:17:21.727
If I usually only look at my sleep score or like it's a score.
314
00:17:21.747 --> 00:17:23.729
It's just how many hours I slept when I know I slept good.
315
00:17:24.249 --> 00:17:26.290
It's like a positive reinforcement, you know?
316
00:17:26.330 --> 00:17:26.911
Yeah, that's fair.
317
00:17:26.931 --> 00:17:27.931
It's going to be a great day.
318
00:17:27.951 --> 00:17:29.493
Yeah.
319
00:17:29.573 --> 00:17:30.213
And I get that.
320
00:17:30.433 --> 00:17:34.879
And like I think there are elements of like the arbitrary that can be positive.
321
00:17:34.899 --> 00:17:38.745
Like even like think about like, you know, an affirmation, right?
322
00:17:38.805 --> 00:17:40.507
Some people might say like an affirmation in the mirror.
323
00:17:40.527 --> 00:17:45.914
They have like motivational sticky notes or, you know, like like I have one next to my desk, like work hard, be good to people.
324
00:17:45.934 --> 00:17:47.437
That's kind of like a personal mantra for me.
325
00:17:47.837 --> 00:17:53.061
That's a positive outside influence on me, but it's not, it is not a made up score.
326
00:17:53.101 --> 00:17:54.702
Like that's just more of a theory.
327
00:17:54.722 --> 00:17:55.562
That's an idea.
328
00:17:55.862 --> 00:17:59.825
It's not, oh, well, Lee was only 70% good to people today.
329
00:17:59.945 --> 00:18:02.227
Oh, and Lee only worked 80% hard today.
330
00:18:02.487 --> 00:18:06.250
Like now I have this arbitrary thing telling me whether I was good or bad.
331
00:18:06.270 --> 00:18:08.991
Yeah, but that's what salaries are in dollars per hour.
332
00:18:10.432 --> 00:18:10.713
Fair.
333
00:18:10.733 --> 00:18:12.974
And how much money you have in the bank.
334
00:18:13.374 --> 00:18:13.695
Yes.
335
00:18:14.055 --> 00:18:15.216
So unpack that.
336
00:18:15.276 --> 00:18:16.877
Like you're optimizing for...
337
00:18:18.212 --> 00:18:18.793
Make you more money.
338
00:18:19.173 --> 00:18:23.998
Well, the reason that you show up every single day and perform the way you do is because you have been rewarded for that in the past.
339
00:18:24.418 --> 00:18:24.778
Correct.
340
00:18:26.140 --> 00:18:27.681
So, well, I'm optimizing to make money.
341
00:18:28.182 --> 00:18:28.402
Right.
342
00:18:28.642 --> 00:18:32.586
And so for someone else that's optimizing for their health, they've been rewarded for in the past when they have a good sleep score.
343
00:18:33.367 --> 00:18:34.047
They feel better.
344
00:18:34.328 --> 00:18:36.250
They get closer to their goals.
345
00:18:37.168 --> 00:18:37.388
Right.
346
00:18:37.508 --> 00:18:42.390
I just think it's like, I think there are these, these elements of something like a sleep score.
347
00:18:42.630 --> 00:18:43.810
And I know we're resuming in on that.
348
00:18:43.910 --> 00:18:46.651
So I don't want to like, that's not what the article was specifically about.
349
00:18:47.011 --> 00:18:49.132
But I feel like I know over optimization.
350
00:18:49.372 --> 00:18:53.073
It's yeah, you're over optimizing for like a number about how you slept the night before.
351
00:18:53.133 --> 00:18:53.473
Yeah.
352
00:18:53.733 --> 00:18:56.054
And so that's the part that like Scott's really drilling it on.
353
00:18:56.074 --> 00:18:57.575
So like, I'll go back to the article here.
354
00:18:57.595 --> 00:18:58.155
I'll pull a quote.
355
00:18:58.595 --> 00:19:03.756
metrics aren't the arbiters of living well, nor is optimization life's end goal.
356
00:19:04.016 --> 00:19:05.277
That's one of the quotes that Scott has.
357
00:19:05.697 --> 00:19:08.858
Metrics aren't the arbiters of living well, nor is optimization life's end goal.
358
00:19:08.898 --> 00:19:20.341
And that really resonated with me because I do think that too many people are focused on certain metrics, the number in the bank account, the car I drive, the make and model of the year, because that's a metric like, oh, I have a 2025.
359
00:19:21.401 --> 00:19:21.541
Right.
360
00:19:21.561 --> 00:19:24.385
Like that is a metric we use societally that that's a new car.
361
00:19:24.766 --> 00:19:25.787
I guess 2026 is now.
362
00:19:26.167 --> 00:19:36.922
And so the question that I thought of was, do you believe there is a difference between living a like productive metric focused life or living just a good life?
363
00:19:38.012 --> 00:19:41.356
Do you have to have metrics to define what a good life is?
364
00:19:41.676 --> 00:19:44.899
Or can you have a good life that is not defined by any metrics whatsoever?
365
00:19:44.979 --> 00:19:47.122
Whether or not you have metrics, you are optimizing for something.
366
00:19:47.662 --> 00:19:47.842
Yes.
367
00:19:47.902 --> 00:19:53.048
And you might not be optimizing for something that is easily quantifiable, like money or sleep score or whatever.
368
00:19:53.068 --> 00:19:53.168
Yeah.
369
00:19:53.588 --> 00:19:58.529
but you might be optimizing for is time with family or good relationships.
370
00:19:58.849 --> 00:20:03.130
And so I would say you are always optimizing for something because there's always a give and take.
371
00:20:03.590 --> 00:20:14.193
It's just a matter of whether or not that thing that you are doing has become a game that everyone's easily quantifiable around dollars and cents, hours in a bed, calories tracked, proteins, fats, and carbs.
372
00:20:14.493 --> 00:20:15.633
Those are things that are easily tracked.
373
00:20:15.653 --> 00:20:19.394
It is much harder to quantify metrics around quality time.
374
00:20:23.435 --> 00:20:51.238
quality time i think we need to step it up like that doesn't happen and so i think somewhat of how he's defining is like going for things that cannot be optimized or sorry should cannot be cannot be quantified that's actually i think what he's actually digging at because everything in life can be quantified besides the things that to some people matter more and those things that he's putting weight on which i think is true it has the validity to it but you could also make up a game for those things
375
00:20:51.978 --> 00:20:54.120
How many hours did you spend with your son?
376
00:20:54.961 --> 00:20:55.981
Does that make you a better father?
377
00:20:56.021 --> 00:20:57.222
Your father scores 40.
378
00:20:57.703 --> 00:20:59.424
Like, that's just a harder game to play.
379
00:20:59.704 --> 00:21:01.506
It's harder to measure than your heart rate.
380
00:21:02.446 --> 00:21:03.768
And how many calories you had yesterday.
381
00:21:03.788 --> 00:21:05.929
But you could also make that a game.
382
00:21:06.189 --> 00:21:10.193
And I think there are niche audiences that are really into certain things that do make it into a game.
383
00:21:10.673 --> 00:21:12.895
Like, how many days have I showed up on a certain platform?
384
00:21:13.215 --> 00:21:14.516
How many miles have I run?
385
00:21:14.536 --> 00:21:17.638
They make everything becomes a metric because they're optimizing for something else.
386
00:21:17.998 --> 00:21:22.441
And I think what he is trying to say is like not everything needs a metric in order to be optimized.
387
00:21:22.581 --> 00:21:25.824
You can optimize your relationship without having a score to it, without having a scoreboard.
388
00:21:26.744 --> 00:21:26.924
Yeah.
389
00:21:26.964 --> 00:21:40.914
And this was another quote that I was going to bring up to a perfect kind of segue into that is he said, often the qualification of modern life makes us play the games we can easily measure rather than the games we deeply value.
390
00:21:40.994 --> 00:21:41.194
Yeah.
391
00:21:41.494 --> 00:21:42.935
And that's effectively what you're getting out.
392
00:21:43.255 --> 00:21:46.457
And I thought, what are the games in business?
393
00:21:46.517 --> 00:21:48.818
Let's zoom out from the personal side, the sleep scores, whatever.
394
00:21:49.358 --> 00:21:53.161
What are the games in business that are easy to measure but maybe not the most important?
395
00:21:53.601 --> 00:22:02.926
Like from your perspective, when you look at business optimization, kind of switching gears a little bit, do you think there are specific metrics that are easy to measure but aren't as nearly as important?
396
00:22:02.986 --> 00:22:04.567
Yeah, number of employees, number of trucks.
397
00:22:05.062 --> 00:22:05.262
Yeah.
398
00:22:05.903 --> 00:22:14.931
And you feel like there is a kind of antithesis to that that you could optimize for outside of number of employees, number of trucks, top line revenue.
399
00:22:15.912 --> 00:22:17.094
Things that are hard to quantify.
400
00:22:17.194 --> 00:22:17.434
Yes.
401
00:22:17.774 --> 00:22:22.539
Like, for example, for example, like this is one that I came up with revenue versus trust.
402
00:22:23.054 --> 00:22:24.034
Yeah, as a culture.
403
00:22:24.294 --> 00:22:24.695
Oh, culture.
404
00:22:24.735 --> 00:22:25.195
OK, great.
405
00:22:25.215 --> 00:22:25.395
Yeah.
406
00:22:25.655 --> 00:22:33.117
And so I think that that is much harder to quantify because if we are in this over optimization culture, there is no trust score, right?
407
00:22:33.137 --> 00:22:41.960
Like you've done business now with hundreds of people and you've seen people's books, you've seen their P&Ls, you've seen their bank statements and you've seen how they interact with their employees.
408
00:22:42.520 --> 00:22:47.501
You probably have an inherent gauge of how much you would trust that person based on those interactions.
409
00:22:47.922 --> 00:22:49.442
But there isn't a public facing.
410
00:22:49.482 --> 00:22:52.283
This person is a six out of 10 trustworthy.
411
00:22:52.403 --> 00:22:52.623
Right.
412
00:22:52.643 --> 00:22:53.683
Do you see what I'm saying?
413
00:22:53.843 --> 00:22:59.485
And so what do you value like from your perspective as a business leader, like in your organization?
414
00:22:59.865 --> 00:23:07.147
Are you valuing like the person who is a peak optimizer more than the person who is like the most trustworthy?
415
00:23:08.003 --> 00:23:08.945
I'm giving you a binary.
416
00:23:08.965 --> 00:23:18.025
I know that's not fair, but like, would you, if you had to pick, do you pick the person that's better optimizing, better at performing, or do you pick the person that is the average performance, but you trust way more?
417
00:23:18.344 --> 00:23:19.945
I don't know, I think they're very commingled.
418
00:23:20.205 --> 00:23:25.787
Because if someone performs very well, it inherently increases my trust that they'll actually deliver on what they said they're going to do.
419
00:23:26.447 --> 00:23:27.927
You can have all the trust in someone on the world.
420
00:23:27.947 --> 00:23:33.409
Like, for example, if I was like, hey, Lee, I trust you a lot, but you can't fly a helicopter.
421
00:23:33.769 --> 00:23:36.690
Does that mean that, like, somehow you're not fit to drive a helicopter?
422
00:23:36.770 --> 00:23:37.611
Yeah, you're not fit.
423
00:23:37.631 --> 00:23:39.231
You do not have the skills.
424
00:23:39.811 --> 00:23:42.592
And so I think those are two very commingled things.
425
00:23:42.832 --> 00:23:47.394
I think there are, like, quantifiable things, and then there are things that are very difficult to quantify.
426
00:23:48.074 --> 00:23:50.314
Um, also known as qualitative things.
427
00:23:50.354 --> 00:23:52.475
And so things like trust, yeah, I can't score that.
428
00:23:53.355 --> 00:23:57.536
Um, but I also need to have relative skills that I can measure.
429
00:23:57.776 --> 00:23:59.736
Like what was your revenue last month?
430
00:23:59.776 --> 00:24:00.956
How many calls did you have?
431
00:24:00.976 --> 00:24:10.698
Like a lot of the things we talk about is numbers based, but they're all, yes, the, the qualitative things of trust, culture, care, empathy.
432
00:24:10.918 --> 00:24:12.459
Those are the things that are harder to measure.
433
00:24:13.099 --> 00:24:14.679
And I think you need to have both.
434
00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:19.601
I think over optimizing for one or the other leads to downfall.
435
00:24:19.621 --> 00:24:22.863
If I only optimize for people I trust, well, then we have a bunch of unskilled people.
436
00:24:23.544 --> 00:24:27.526
If I only optimize for performance, then we have people who don't care about each other and don't work well with each other.
437
00:24:27.926 --> 00:24:28.906
So I think there has to be a balance.
438
00:24:30.137 --> 00:24:37.044
What about this is like literally the deepest, I think, every week is the 30 minutes we talk about this stuff.
439
00:24:37.244 --> 00:24:39.547
Oh, I appreciate you indulging me.
440
00:24:39.567 --> 00:24:42.870
I'm optimizing for getting that side out of you.
441
00:24:43.030 --> 00:24:43.430
Oh, man.
442
00:24:43.631 --> 00:24:48.636
What about like a different example would be like speed to make a decision.
443
00:24:48.856 --> 00:24:53.320
So like there are businesses that optimize for speed, speed of execution.
444
00:24:54.179 --> 00:25:00.021
And you have in the past said that like you've made decisions very quickly and sometimes you have admitted to making decisions too fast.
445
00:25:00.321 --> 00:25:04.582
So you have businesses that optimize for like speed of decision making and execution.
446
00:25:04.802 --> 00:25:11.804
But then you have businesses that optimize for making sure every single decision is as close to 100 percent accurate as possible.
447
00:25:12.144 --> 00:25:13.965
Like where do you see that?
448
00:25:14.965 --> 00:25:24.051
As a business owner, do you think that people tend to move one direction too much, or do you feel that they should be optimizing for one direction more so than the other?
449
00:25:24.071 --> 00:25:25.072
It depends on their goals.
450
00:25:25.372 --> 00:25:25.552
Yeah.
451
00:25:25.752 --> 00:25:29.554
Whoever has equity in that business gets to determine, do we...
452
00:25:30.575 --> 00:25:34.478
Do we put on a pedestal being correct or do we put on a pedestal making progress?
453
00:25:34.999 --> 00:25:40.143
And that's going to likely push them in the direction of either speed or perfection and getting everything right.
454
00:25:40.503 --> 00:25:48.850
And I think the bigger business gets, usually it tends to shift more away from speed because it has more collateral damage when there's so many people involved.
455
00:25:49.310 --> 00:25:51.292
It's harder to turn the Titanic than it is a rowboat.
456
00:25:51.992 --> 00:25:55.315
But you still want to be on the Titanic in the middle of an ocean, not a rowboat.
457
00:25:56.373 --> 00:26:01.755
As long as there's no iceberg around, you want to be in the Titanic.
458
00:26:02.556 --> 00:26:05.357
And so I think, yeah, it comes down to the owner.
459
00:26:05.397 --> 00:26:06.597
The owner has to make that decision.
460
00:26:06.617 --> 00:26:15.201
And there's going to be no matter where you're at in that spectrum, you're going to be called either slow by some or you're going to be you're going to be called overly cautious, optimistic and slow.
461
00:26:15.925 --> 00:26:21.113
you will never be able, like only the person that owns equity can determine where on that gauge we're at.
462
00:26:21.394 --> 00:26:25.821
And for some decisions, you optimize way for one and on other things, you optimize way for the other.
463
00:26:26.081 --> 00:26:29.827
So like Jeff Bezos says, like if it's a one-way door, you would be way cautious.
464
00:26:51.758 --> 00:26:54.959
If you can't come back, you can't reverse the decision, then you slow down.
465
00:26:55.219 --> 00:27:03.301
And whereas if it's like, hey, we can take this back, we can always roll this feature back, we can change this, we can cut this department out, it's not going to make a big deal, then go, go as fast as possible.
466
00:27:03.601 --> 00:27:04.782
So I think it changes all the time.
467
00:27:05.702 --> 00:27:09.043
What about optimization when it comes to employees?
468
00:27:10.247 --> 00:27:15.468
So thinking about it from the perspective of, you know, and Scott very kind of briefly touches on this.
469
00:27:15.488 --> 00:27:16.808
He doesn't directly go this route.
470
00:27:17.468 --> 00:27:19.089
And I don't even think he has a specific claim.
471
00:27:19.329 --> 00:27:23.490
But he touches on, you know, business decisions are made based on measurables.
472
00:27:23.890 --> 00:27:28.111
And then there's almost like this loss of humanity that, oh, it's a business decision.
473
00:27:28.371 --> 00:27:28.571
Right.
474
00:27:28.611 --> 00:27:30.091
Like you said, like we can make a decision.
475
00:27:30.111 --> 00:27:30.611
We can roll it.
476
00:27:30.751 --> 00:27:31.431
We can roll it back.
477
00:27:31.511 --> 00:27:32.792
We can cut that department.
478
00:27:32.852 --> 00:27:33.752
We can move things around.
479
00:27:33.792 --> 00:27:35.452
We could cut that team member.
480
00:27:35.532 --> 00:27:38.073
We could cut out that division, whatever it is.
481
00:27:38.093 --> 00:27:38.993
And that happens all the time.
482
00:27:39.373 --> 00:27:40.193
Like, we can make a decision.
483
00:27:40.353 --> 00:27:48.435
Do you feel that there is a balance that you have found in your businesses to, yes, make educated decisions based on the measurables, right?
484
00:27:48.555 --> 00:27:55.037
Optimizing for these measurables for the performance of the business, but also still keeping the humanity of like, these are real people involved in these decisions.
485
00:27:55.057 --> 00:27:56.417
Like, this will impact real people.
486
00:27:56.577 --> 00:27:57.838
Like, where is that balance for you?
487
00:27:57.978 --> 00:28:01.539
Firing and letting people go is a very different, like, again, it's a completely different topic.
488
00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:01.879
But...
489
00:28:05.120 --> 00:28:13.022
how it affects the business, I have to ask myself, are the metrics in this case outweighing the potential downside effects that I might lose in culture?
490
00:28:14.522 --> 00:28:20.084
If I was put in the place and I've had to do it once, where it's like an unexpected layoff and...
491
00:28:20.884 --> 00:28:31.349
If I'm in the position where I need to make a business decision, to use that term, let's just say dollars and cents versus I know that this is going to hurt the culture of the business, I better have a really good reason.
492
00:28:31.449 --> 00:28:41.555
And I believe that people trust me less if that becomes a constant in my decision making, which is I just constantly just fall to the business side because then what you're saying is like, I don't care about the culture.
493
00:28:42.315 --> 00:28:45.238
And so I would just be very weighted with that decision.
494
00:28:45.258 --> 00:28:51.946
It would be something that would take very slowly if I was ever choosing dollars and cents over if I knew that the culture was negative.
495
00:28:52.026 --> 00:28:57.172
I will also say when you fire people most of the time, it's you reduce payroll and you also increase the culture of the business.
496
00:28:57.192 --> 00:28:57.392
Mm-hmm.
497
00:28:57.672 --> 00:28:58.712
when you make a good firing.
498
00:28:59.132 --> 00:29:07.694
So it's very, very rare in that case where you are making a business decision and you're cutting people and it's gonna negatively impact the business.
499
00:29:07.714 --> 00:29:11.835
Like I would make that, it's negatively impacting the culture, the trust built up.
500
00:29:12.195 --> 00:29:14.015
I would take that with a lot of calculation.
501
00:29:14.115 --> 00:29:15.316
I would rather eat payroll.
502
00:29:15.496 --> 00:29:16.856
Like I'm doing this right now in another department.
503
00:29:17.116 --> 00:29:18.076
I'm eating payroll.
504
00:29:18.136 --> 00:29:27.298
I know that I don't need, but I would rather keep the engagement of the team high and long-term grow into that capacity that's in that department.
505
00:29:27.558 --> 00:29:32.701
Yeah, I think it's an interesting decision to make because I made a decision and you probably won't remember it.
506
00:29:32.721 --> 00:29:38.324
It was months back, but I made a decision that effectively impacted a team member's compensation.
507
00:29:38.644 --> 00:29:41.046
But I was like, here's the data behind why.
508
00:29:41.486 --> 00:29:53.013
And to your point, I guess, yeah, I did have to have that internal dialogue of how negatively will this impact culture, how negatively will impact the affected employee if certain wages, commissions, whatever were changed.
509
00:29:53.653 --> 00:29:56.994
But the numbers support like this is this change should be made.
510
00:29:57.554 --> 00:29:58.795
And I know we don't like using shoulds.
511
00:29:59.035 --> 00:30:06.918
This change needs to be made if the business needs to is going to continue allocating resources appropriately with the resources we have available.
512
00:30:07.518 --> 00:30:11.959
Because we have a finite amount of resources in terms of salespeople and teams and whatever we might be doing.
513
00:30:12.300 --> 00:30:19.102
And so to your point, I guess I never thought that that internal dialogue before I brought you the numbers, before I told you I think this is the direction we should go in.
514
00:30:19.402 --> 00:30:21.943
I had that dialogue of how will this impact the culture?
515
00:30:21.983 --> 00:30:24.485
How will it impact the people involved in this decision?
516
00:30:24.965 --> 00:30:28.147
Even though I know objectively it's the right business decision.
517
00:30:28.827 --> 00:30:29.427
Objectively.
518
00:30:29.707 --> 00:30:33.089
Subjectively, I have to take into account like optimizing for team culture.
519
00:30:33.109 --> 00:30:33.750
Does that make sense?
520
00:30:33.850 --> 00:30:34.010
Yeah.
521
00:30:34.310 --> 00:30:39.353
So I think, do you feel like there's anything that business owners can use?
522
00:30:39.393 --> 00:30:43.715
Are there any tools or questions they can ask themselves when they find themselves at a crossroad like that?
523
00:30:44.056 --> 00:30:51.139
I think realizing that anything you do to your team, regardless of the percentage of the team, is going to affect 100% of your team.
524
00:30:51.459 --> 00:31:01.664
Meaning, this is why I disagree with a lot of the way the layoffs are being done right now with technology, is they're laying off 5% of their team, but what they're doing, they're doing it to cut costs by 5% for payroll, right?
525
00:31:02.625 --> 00:31:11.169
What they're failing to realize is that the other 95% that stay, they just got a 30% haircut on their productivity and buying at the company.
526
00:31:12.068 --> 00:31:14.249
And so I actually feel like it's a net loss in the long run.
527
00:31:14.269 --> 00:31:16.190
In the short term, stock market loves it.
528
00:31:16.430 --> 00:31:19.571
The stock, but you will start losing your best people three, four years from now.
529
00:31:20.071 --> 00:31:24.193
You will have less discretion or effort towards your business because now they've seen how you treat people.
530
00:31:24.453 --> 00:31:30.796
So when they show up to work one day and 5%, all their colleagues are gone, indiscriminately, completely arbitrary, just numbers.
531
00:31:30.976 --> 00:31:33.057
Dude, you guys are, it's a business decision.
532
00:31:33.597 --> 00:31:34.738
What does that do to the rest of the team?
533
00:31:35.258 --> 00:31:38.640
And so that's how I always look at whether it be one team member or a department.
534
00:31:39.061 --> 00:31:42.723
Everyone else's culture gets affected because they see how things are being treated.
535
00:31:42.964 --> 00:31:46.686
And the biggest unlock to any labor is discretionary effort.
536
00:31:47.066 --> 00:31:48.067
Do they think about in the shower?
537
00:31:48.127 --> 00:31:52.550
Do they think about while they're driving to work when they're not clocked in, when they're at dinner, do they have an idea and they write it down their phone?
538
00:31:52.871 --> 00:31:58.295
If I can't unlock that, I got to go buy twice as much labor to be able to get the job done.
539
00:31:59.135 --> 00:32:15.003
And so I think the biggest hack in labor or any sort of required work to be done, whether it be discretionary effort out in the field, like I can run to the truck or I can drive to a gas station that's three miles away versus one mile away.
540
00:32:15.703 --> 00:32:18.485
These are all the little discretionary effort cuts that come in the culture.
541
00:32:18.805 --> 00:32:22.847
And a lot of times it's when they look at the leader, there's evidence that they don't care about the people.
542
00:32:23.367 --> 00:32:26.550
And I think a lot of times we make sense of it because we do have a 5% reduction in payroll.
543
00:32:26.570 --> 00:32:32.794
We do cut a cost, but we forget about the other 95% of people that see that and they stop giving discretionary effort.
544
00:32:33.235 --> 00:32:36.317
And so I have always thought about that as like, okay, I'm making this cut.
545
00:32:36.417 --> 00:32:36.697
Great.
546
00:32:36.737 --> 00:32:38.238
What's that doing to everyone else that stays?
547
00:32:38.458 --> 00:32:43.262
Because if it's not positive, which usually when you're cutting someone is positive to the culture, it actually increases.
548
00:32:43.963 --> 00:32:47.886
I'm reducing payroll, but then you also have the 95% that all of a sudden outperform at 105%.
549
00:32:48.706 --> 00:32:51.169
Like that's usually what happens when you cut bad culture from the business.
550
00:32:51.429 --> 00:32:58.316
But if you don't, like if you're cutting good people that are performing well, but you do it based on business, like we're just cutting indiscriminately.
551
00:32:58.676 --> 00:33:02.180
I think that's such a damage to the long term of the business.
552
00:33:02.200 --> 00:33:07.104
And when someone starts doing that, a business starts doing that, I think it's like the first step of decline over the course of decades.
553
00:33:07.505 --> 00:33:11.449
It can take a long time to show up, but the discretionary effort is lost within the team.
554
00:33:11.749 --> 00:33:14.551
What do business owners optimize for that you respect?
555
00:33:15.171 --> 00:33:16.151
That garners your respect.
556
00:33:16.171 --> 00:33:19.173
Like this business owner is optimizing for X. I respect that.
557
00:33:19.513 --> 00:33:19.854
I don't know.
558
00:33:20.054 --> 00:33:21.434
Everyone's playing their own game.
559
00:33:21.795 --> 00:33:22.195
Long term.
560
00:33:22.415 --> 00:33:22.835
Long term.
561
00:33:23.796 --> 00:33:25.036
Just like focus on long term goals.
562
00:33:25.236 --> 00:33:31.360
Yeah, because if you actually are optimizing for the long term, it'll change the way you operate a team.
563
00:33:31.620 --> 00:33:32.881
It'll change the way you allocate capital.
564
00:33:33.101 --> 00:33:35.842
It'll change the way you communicate with customers.
565
00:33:36.022 --> 00:33:40.265
Every behavior will change if you're just like, is this a five year decision or is this a 50 year decision?
566
00:33:40.805 --> 00:33:43.947
And that's why people hate private equity, because usually when they step in, they're looking at a five-year term.
567
00:33:44.908 --> 00:33:48.470
And so I think I respect anyone that's like, in 50 years, this is important.
568
00:33:48.630 --> 00:33:51.172
Even something that happened last week with the leadership team, remember I said?
569
00:33:52.133 --> 00:33:55.996
It's like in 100 years, no one will care for this business as much as us.
570
00:33:56.036 --> 00:33:59.718
So we need to put things in place that will prevent them from undoing what we're doing right now.
571
00:34:00.519 --> 00:34:04.662
And I think that is the type of behavior that I have admired in other people.
572
00:34:05.540 --> 00:34:05.760
All right.
573
00:34:05.860 --> 00:34:06.701
Any non-financial advice?
574
00:34:06.721 --> 00:34:07.281
Yeah, dude, I do.
575
00:34:07.341 --> 00:34:07.562
I do.
576
00:34:07.582 --> 00:34:07.682
I do.
577
00:34:07.702 --> 00:34:08.122
Oh, let's go.
578
00:34:08.222 --> 00:34:08.522
All right.
579
00:34:08.622 --> 00:34:11.064
So Jocko just came out with the brand new.
580
00:34:11.765 --> 00:34:12.986
These are not new flavors.
581
00:34:13.006 --> 00:34:13.386
Okay.
582
00:34:13.586 --> 00:34:15.728
But they changed the way that they do their carbonation.
583
00:34:15.768 --> 00:34:17.129
It's now reverse osmosis.
584
00:34:17.249 --> 00:34:17.489
Okay.
585
00:34:17.930 --> 00:34:19.631
And they changed their sweetener profile a little bit.
586
00:34:19.651 --> 00:34:22.653
It's a little monk fruit, but it is significantly better.
587
00:34:22.973 --> 00:34:25.115
Not only is it the packaging, by the way, here.
588
00:34:25.255 --> 00:34:28.237
So editors before packaging, after packaging.
589
00:34:28.418 --> 00:34:28.778
See that?
590
00:34:29.378 --> 00:34:29.859
Much better.
591
00:34:29.919 --> 00:34:31.740
So anyways, I highly recommend.
592
00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:32.240
Go check it out.
593
00:34:32.421 --> 00:34:32.761
Perfect.
594
00:34:32.821 --> 00:34:33.882
Can I steal one from your fridge?
595
00:34:34.483 --> 00:34:37.028
Dude, this one's already earmarked for Nick.
596
00:34:37.048 --> 00:34:38.009
I got one more.
597
00:34:38.050 --> 00:34:38.470
Oh, that's fine.
598
00:34:38.510 --> 00:34:39.052
I'll take it.
599
00:34:39.092 --> 00:34:40.013
I'll go in on Monday.
600
00:34:40.094 --> 00:34:40.354
That's fine.
601
00:34:40.394 --> 00:34:40.975
I promise.
602
00:34:41.276 --> 00:34:41.536
Okay.
603
00:34:41.556 --> 00:34:45.404
My not financial advice directly from Scott's article is just enjoy every sandwich.
604
00:34:46.083 --> 00:35:12.177
every sandwich yeah i haven't had a sandwich in so long you have to yeah you have to read the article you have to read the article oh really just enjoy every sandwich okay but it's yours i'm guessing this is not food no it is oh it is but it's basically like don't worry about everything like just enjoy the small things stop optimizing for everything enjoy every jocko and jaco just not yours i'll get you on monday i'm fine nick's meeting before he was like hey can i have that i'm like yeah i gotta do it for non-management advice and then i'll give it to you all right i'll take it down to him like and subscribe
1
00:00:00.211 --> 00:00:07.898
What gets measured gets managed, even if it's pointless to measure and manage it, and even if it harms the purpose of the organization to do so.
2
00:00:08.179 --> 00:00:10.040
I have always thought of actually his way.
3
00:00:10.140 --> 00:00:13.764
I'm always talking about measurement, management, but I can only manage so many things.
4
00:00:13.784 --> 00:00:15.405
Therefore, I should only measure so many things.
5
00:00:15.625 --> 00:00:17.247
I think that's the core of what Scott's getting at.
6
00:00:17.267 --> 00:00:19.389
I was like, you over optimize, you create all these metrics.
7
00:00:19.409 --> 00:00:23.032
As soon as one or two are off, now you have a negative influence on your life.
8
00:00:23.052 --> 00:00:24.854
You have a negative input coming back to you.
9
00:00:24.914 --> 00:00:26.295
Like I'm doing this right now in an apartment.
10
00:00:26.535 --> 00:00:27.516
I'm eating payroll.
11
00:00:27.576 --> 00:00:34.560
I know that I don't need, but I would rather keep the engagement of the team high and long term grow into that.
12
00:00:34.780 --> 00:00:43.186
The qualification of modern life makes us play the games we can easily measure rather than the games we deeply value.
13
00:00:43.506 --> 00:00:48.232
If you actually are optimizing for the long term, it'll change the way you operate a team.
14
00:00:48.472 --> 00:00:49.734
It'll change the way you allocate capital.
15
00:00:49.954 --> 00:00:51.676
It'll change the way you communicate with customers.
16
00:00:52.477 --> 00:00:57.163
Every behavior will change if you're just like, is this a five-year decision or is this a 50-year decision?
17
00:00:57.343 --> 00:00:57.763
We're back.
18
00:00:57.884 --> 00:00:58.344
Welcome back.
19
00:00:58.464 --> 00:01:00.987
Another episode, the C-Suite Unfiltered with Mike Andes.
20
00:01:01.127 --> 00:01:01.488
How we doing?
21
00:01:01.648 --> 00:01:02.209
Fantastic.
22
00:01:02.329 --> 00:01:02.569
Good.
23
00:01:02.709 --> 00:01:03.069
I love it.
24
00:01:03.089 --> 00:01:04.691
Well, we're going to dive straight into it.
25
00:01:04.831 --> 00:01:06.792
No cold open here.
26
00:01:07.753 --> 00:01:11.016
I want to reference a recent newsletter from Scott Galloway.
27
00:01:11.216 --> 00:01:20.644
So a person that I like to get news information from, market information from, and I would say he's a modern day thought leader, you know, if we were to use that term.
28
00:01:20.664 --> 00:01:22.385
So let me read you the opening paragraph.
29
00:01:22.406 --> 00:01:26.409
I did write up kind of like a synopsis for anyone that didn't read this newsletter of his.
30
00:01:26.749 --> 00:01:33.333
I did send it to a couple of people, mostly a couple of young, younger men who are high performers because I thought it was an interesting perspective.
31
00:01:33.353 --> 00:01:38.355
So here's here's the opening paragraph of this article from Scott Galloway titled Optimization.
32
00:01:38.615 --> 00:01:39.336
Optimization.
33
00:01:39.356 --> 00:01:39.616
All right.
34
00:01:39.756 --> 00:01:45.739
What gets measured gets managed is often misattributed to Peter Drucker, the father of modern management theory.
35
00:01:46.099 --> 00:01:50.882
The full quote from business journalist Simon Colkin is a warning, not a promise.
36
00:01:51.262 --> 00:01:53.123
What gets measured gets managed.
37
00:01:53.543 --> 00:01:58.946
even if it's pointless to measure and manage it, and even if it harms the purpose of the organization to do so.
38
00:01:59.526 --> 00:02:03.107
In other words, our mania for measurement can obscure what matters most.
39
00:02:03.448 --> 00:02:08.250
Consider the optimization of health and fitness apps that trend those technologies enable.
40
00:02:10.811 --> 00:02:15.757
To a point, the more data we collect on ourselves, the better able we may be to improve our lives.
41
00:02:16.097 --> 00:02:20.662
But metrics aren't the arbiters of well-being, nor is optimization life's end goal.
42
00:02:21.123 --> 00:02:23.265
I believe this trend isn't about optimizing life.
43
00:02:23.686 --> 00:02:28.952
It reflects a growing obsession that's consuming life's purpose and meaning.
44
00:02:29.472 --> 00:02:33.796
So that is Scott's opening claim in this article, newsletter, whatever you want to call it.
45
00:02:34.156 --> 00:02:39.201
Basically, his point is that measurement is not bad, but in fact, measurement can be incredibly useful.
46
00:02:39.641 --> 00:02:41.403
Businesses need scoreboard, people need feedback.
47
00:02:41.483 --> 00:02:44.205
And if you want to improve something, you usually need a way to measure it.
48
00:02:44.545 --> 00:02:49.270
But he warns that things we measure can slowly start replacing the things that we actually value.
49
00:02:49.570 --> 00:02:51.672
So do you need any additional context?
50
00:02:51.692 --> 00:02:56.336
Do you have like an initial reaction to that opening paragraph and kind of the brief I just gave you?
51
00:02:56.496 --> 00:02:59.138
Well, what's funny is like I have always thought of actually his way.
52
00:02:59.978 --> 00:03:03.621
Like I'm always talking, yeah, measurement, management, but I can only manage so many things.
53
00:03:03.661 --> 00:03:05.202
Therefore, I should only measure so many things.
54
00:03:05.562 --> 00:03:06.683
I've actually always thought of it that way.
55
00:03:06.863 --> 00:03:07.123
Okay.
56
00:03:07.623 --> 00:03:10.045
So what about from a personal optimization perspective?
57
00:03:10.065 --> 00:03:16.229
Because, yes, he is obviously in the business world, but the article focuses a little bit more on personal optimization.
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So like your sleep scores, like your VO2 max, like your whatever fitness scores, your –
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your whatever measurables we want to get after that we are over optimizing for these scores or for these this peak performance that we're actually losing sight of what actually is valuable so what is your thought on like this personal optimization it doesn't have to be fitness and health obviously that's really big right now but just general personal optimization like what is your reaction to that i don't know you assume that it makes you happy to not do those things for some people like hitting the number is like that's that's their thing
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I think it becomes a problem if it has actually caused anxiety or stress.
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But for some people, being able to track their sleep score is useful from a health perspective, and they get more joy from it.
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It increases the quality of their life.
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If that's what they're optimizing for.
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True.
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They're optimizing for...
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enjoying that tracking process is what you're saying true but what about the people that obsess over it like we're and that's i think where scott's getting at the heart of like there's this fine line between doing it for you're optimizing for the sake of optimizing in the sense of this is a positive this will have a positive impact on me there's that but then there's the line of like we obsess over everything we're optimizing for that we lose sight of what we're actually trying to do yeah but you've made artificial scoreboards effectively
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Yeah, but optimization and obsession, you can use the same exact thing for business.
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It's like, well, is it healthy to track how much money in your bank account?
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Yeah, probably.
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But like, do you work 19 hours a day?
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Well, probably shouldn't do that.
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But I did it.
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Yeah.
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And like, it served my goals.
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So it's like, I think it depends on what your goals are.
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Mm hmm.
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Yeah, so the article really is asking, these are some of the notes I made, is what happens when optimization stops serving your life and starts consuming it?
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More importantly, the made-up scoreboard starts consuming you.
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What does consuming mean?
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I don't know.
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I didn't define that term specifically, but I think that's essentially what Scott is asking.
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Consuming meaning you obsess over VO2 max, you obsess over your sleep score, whatever.
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So you probably saw that Stephen Bartlett clip go viral.
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Okay.
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He was talking about this exactly, and he was getting dragged all over the internet.
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Yeah.
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Especially about red-pilled far-right guys.
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But it's very funny.
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So he talks about how he hasn't been drinking for over a year.
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Okay.
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And then he had three glasses of wine at a party.
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And his words, I think this is the direct quote, it wrecked me for three days.
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My sleep score was off.
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My VO2 max was off.
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My this was off.
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I podcast worst.
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I interviewed worse.
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And I'm like, OK, that is all consuming.
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You're telling me that three glasses of wine put you out for three days?
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Like, you're just like, dude, step up.
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Like take some ibuprofen, drink, drink some water and like go live your life.
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Like, I think that's a perfect example.
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This leaves perspective.
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It could be wrong.
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You could hate me.
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That's fine.
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But like his reaction to that is like he his optimization consumed him.
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Like you couldn't just have three glasses of wine, wake up like, oh, I kind of have a headache and just go about his business.
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Yeah.
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It let it affect him for three days.
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You cannot tell me that that is like a normal reaction.
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You can't.
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Yeah.
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Well, or, or is it the fact that he has numbers now because he has, but why?
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Like that's where, that's my question.
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That's what Scott's asking this article.
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And I don't even know if I fully believe this, but I'm just for the sake of conversation.
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That's why we don't podcast is for the sake of conversation.
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Yeah.
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Is why though?
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Like it wrecked him for three days because he's been tracking these scores for a year, two years, three years.
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So he made up a scoreboard and now he's upset for three days in a row that the arbitrary scoreboard he came up with isn't what it wasn't what he wanted it to be.
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And now it's negatively impacting his life.
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Well, it could be negatively impacting his life because his goal is to make more money and to make better podcasts.
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Right.
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And if it does damage that, now he has a number to track that.
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Like, I think the same, you could just switch all these things out for business.
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Like, if you check your, check how much money is your bank account, is that a bad thing?
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Like, if you obsess over it, like, yeah, probably.
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Like, you'll probably make better progress from a financial perspective.
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If you work more hours, yeah, is it not healthy?
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Probably not.
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But, like, you're probably in the middle of bigger business.
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And so like I think if Stephen Bartlett's goals are to be the best podcast in the world, having three glasses of wine, if it really does affect his performance and now he has metrics to prove it because he actually cares about what those metrics are, that's his prerogative.
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Here's my thought.
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If he never tracked his sleep score and he references his sleep score.
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Okay.
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If he never tracked it, you could just like how red pill, blue pill.
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It's like, it's like all based upon like how many times you reference your score.
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I said, and quote to someone the other day, if I ever tell you about my sleep score, punch me in the face.
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Like, I'm just like, I'm sorry.
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I'm not doing that.
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First off, not going to track it for myself.
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Second off, definitely not going to tell anyone publicly.
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And here we go.
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What's your sleep score?
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I only track one number of my sleep is how many hours I was.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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Fair.
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So but what I'm saying is if he had never tracked his sleep score historically, he wouldn't know he was in the red.
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He wouldn't know he was negative.
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So this is the question then is did he feel bad because the numbers were down for three days or did he already feel bad regardless of now?
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He has a metric to quantify it.
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Or does he just not get consumed by this optimization culture and realize like I had three glasses of wine because I was at a party with friends and I woke up feeling a little worse the next day.
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And that's OK.
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I had a great time last night with my friends.
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We have to assume that part.
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Maybe maybe the juice wasn't worth the squeeze fair in that.
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But then that's then that's less about the red wine affecting him.
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That's just him making a bad decision.
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True.
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So maybe he just needs to quantify whether his decisions are good.
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Right.
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That's what I'm saying is like this.
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And I feel like that's a good example.
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I don't know.
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But that's really what Scott's saying.
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And like I said, I'm making claims here.
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I don't know if I believe all of them.
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But I think it's interesting to discuss because like from a business perspective and you yourself, like you're performance driven, you're a metrics oriented person.
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I would say I am generally in a business sense.
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And you've said before one of the things that I thought was interesting.
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Like while I was reading the article, I thought of like, I guess I'll.
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famous quote of yours, but you said like a runner that makes progress is always out of balance.
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Technically, you've used that analogy before.
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And I love it because yes, jumping from one foot to the other is a, is an act of imbalance.
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You are jumping from one foot to the other, but you will make progress.
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And so I think the question that I came up with while reading the article and thinking about recording with you is like, when the imbalance, what, uh, when is imbalance, the price of progress and when is imbalance self-indulgent misery?
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Hmm.
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Like, what are your thoughts on that?
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What is imbalance the price of progress?
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And when is imbalance self-indulgent misery?
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Only Stephen Bartlett, in this case, can quantify the joy he gets from having that time with his friends versus the downstream effects that it has on his optimized life.
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And he has different weights of what he puts value on.
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And only he can determine which one is greater to him.
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For some people, they care less if the next day they have a hangover and they're doing a podcast.
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Take care less.
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Last night was so great.
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Yeah.
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But...
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Only he, so when he goes back and judges himself, his decision is bad.
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He is saying, this is the joy that I got from that night.
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And this is the incremental loss of joy that I got for the next three days of having loss of productivity.
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For someone else that's not geared the way he is or has different goals than him.
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They would completely change those, those quant, the same, the same exact stimuli, different quantities of joy and joy reduction.
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We're done joy reduction now.
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Let's go.
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No, I get what you're saying.
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I think that's the interesting part is that is the imbalance, like is this imbalance we're talking about, like this lack of optimization or this imbalance towards optimization, however you want to define it.
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It's only worth it if you understand your own goals.
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True.
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100%.
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All right, so Lee is making a great point here, and that is about your goals and being able to have progress markers towards it.
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I think of it like a football field.
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You have your end zone, the goal, and then you have hash marks all along the way, your yard lines to get there.
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And in business, a lot of us know our end goal, like how much revenue we want to do, how many employees we want to have, how many trucks we want to employ, but we don't actually know the hash marks or the metrics or the numbers to get there.
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And so you don't actually know if you're making progress.
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That's like your close rate, your customer acquisition cost.
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How much invoices are overdue right now?
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Using HomeWorks, you can know your numbers and be able to track your progress towards your goal.
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Now, what I'm really excited about is we are adding MCP access to HomeWorks, which means it connects your AI agent and you can just ask it in common English language, like, hey, is my close rate going up right now?
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from a lead attribution perspective, which marketing channel is producing the best results in terms of churn.
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These are things that in the future, you'll be able to just ask your AI agent, it'll go into HomeWorks using the MCP access, and we'll just deliver those reports right back to you.
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Talk about knowing where you're at on the way to your goal.
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So go check it out, go check out HomeWorks, lots of really cool stuff around this whole aspect of KPIs, but just be able to ask it in common language using your MCP.
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All right, back to the pod.
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And that's where it's subjective to everybody.
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Yes.
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And that's why this conversation people get mad at things we're saying because they're like, well, my goals are different.
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I think about it differently.
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And that's fine.
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And not to defend Stephen Bartlett.
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It's just that his goals being the way they have is why he owns his net worth from a monetary perspective is more than 99.999% of the people that judged him on that post.
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110 percent that's why he is there yeah and the same but also like does that mean that his personal relationships are potentially less than everyone else watching yeah that's that's potentially true yeah he made that judgment call based upon his goals yeah and that's fair and that's that's not me like casting judgment on him specifically but i do think there is this this nebulous idea that like he said it wrecked me for three days where i'm like that's just not a human response like
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That you could have three glasses of wine.
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Let's just, like, I just don't think someone at his age, his physical abilities, like, he seems like a pretty fit guy, he takes his fitness seriously, that, like, three glasses of wine wrecked him for three days.
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I just don't believe that.
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Like, you can't convince me in an unmeasurable way that that actually wrecked him for three days.
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Mm-hmm.
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I think he made arbitrary scoreboards that now are telling him those are those are now inputs for him that he was wrecked for three days.
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Do you see what I'm saying?
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I see what you're saying.
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It's like, OK, here, I'll use a real world example.
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Once again, not me casting judgment on Stephen Bartlett.
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But here's a real world example.
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Two weeks ago, we had a leadership meeting.
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Liz looked at me and she was like, Lee, you look tired.
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And do you remember my reaction?
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Yeah.
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When?
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Two weeks ago?
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Two weeks ago we had a meeting.
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You and Liz came and sat.
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Oh, in the corner.
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And we were talking about your plans, which I don't know if we can talk about that yet.
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Okay, perfect.
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There's a little teaser.
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And she was like, Lee, you look really tired.
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And I got a little upset.
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In a joking way, like, oh, thanks, Liz.
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I really appreciate you telling me I look tired.
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But I thought about it after the fact, which I was like, why did I get like mad at her?
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I love it.
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I don't think about this stuff at all, dude.
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Totally fine.
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And I was like, why did I get mad at her?
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Like I was like, I kind of snapped at her.
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But in a joke, you like Liz and I have the rapport.
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It wasn't a big deal.
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And I was like, you know what it was?
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It's like I took an affront to that because like I when I'm here at work, I don't care what happened to me outside of these walls.
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I'm here to perform like I'm here to do a job.
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And so it upset me.
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That's like, oh, you look tired.
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Do you need to like take a break?
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Are you OK?
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Like, can we get you?
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It's like, dude, I'm here to work.
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And so for me, I know if I was tracking my sleep score, it would have been horrible the night before when she said I look tired.
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Why?
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Because my son slept horribly the night before.
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And as a parent, you got to get up.
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You got to do the whole song and dance, try to help him sleep.
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It's great.
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And I love my son.
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It's like I'm optimizing to help my son sleep.
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Right.
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But I also am not going to be upset when I'm tired the next day.
280
00:15:55.882 --> 00:15:58.924
I'd be like, oh, my son's sleep wrecked me.
281
00:15:59.064 --> 00:16:01.065
Oh, my sleep score was a 30.
282
00:16:01.125 --> 00:16:01.725
I don't even know.
283
00:16:01.845 --> 00:16:02.465
I don't even know.
284
00:16:02.565 --> 00:16:04.006
Is that is that is it an actual number?
285
00:16:04.146 --> 00:16:04.566
I don't know.
286
00:16:04.586 --> 00:16:05.727
Because I never tracked it.
287
00:16:06.007 --> 00:16:06.748
But you see what I'm saying?
288
00:16:06.768 --> 00:16:11.352
Like, I think when you when you over optimize, I think that's the core of what Scott's getting at.
289
00:16:11.372 --> 00:16:13.474
I was like, you over optimize, you create all these metrics.
290
00:16:13.514 --> 00:16:17.118
As soon as one or two are off, now you have a negative influence on your life.
291
00:16:17.138 --> 00:16:18.960
You have a negative input coming back to you.
292
00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:24.986
And now that messes with your psyche to then go out and just perform and just go out and get the job done.
293
00:16:25.286 --> 00:16:26.286
Do you see what I'm saying?
294
00:16:26.306 --> 00:16:26.406
Yeah.
295
00:16:26.426 --> 00:16:31.228
Like for me, when it comes to the metrics around health, I like to look at over the course of a month, like a week.
296
00:16:31.748 --> 00:16:38.810
But specifically the last three weeks, I do not look at myself because I don't want to have the negative association.
297
00:16:38.870 --> 00:16:40.090
I never want it to be a crutch.
298
00:16:40.130 --> 00:16:41.911
Like, oh, I only slept three hours last night.
299
00:16:41.931 --> 00:16:43.431
Therefore, I will perform badly today.
300
00:16:44.891 --> 00:16:53.494
I think it's just, yeah, it can be a reinforcing loop of negativity around like what I'm actually trying to optimize for, which is like living life and being super productive.
301
00:16:53.514 --> 00:16:54.074
Yeah.
302
00:16:54.355 --> 00:16:57.656
me knowing that's up three hours last night and I be careful today.
303
00:16:57.676 --> 00:16:58.436
You're going to be tired.
304
00:16:58.456 --> 00:16:59.737
I'm like, I don't think I need to see that.
305
00:16:59.797 --> 00:17:03.378
So I just won't even look at it, but I do like to see over the course of time.
306
00:17:04.998 --> 00:17:10.600
It is, it is, it is another just like thing to measure to be able to, to try to optimize for health.
307
00:17:11.280 --> 00:17:12.581
But to your point, I agree.
308
00:17:12.601 --> 00:17:12.941
I agree.
309
00:17:12.961 --> 00:17:13.382
We're coming.
310
00:17:13.402 --> 00:17:14.522
We get where you're coming from.
311
00:17:15.143 --> 00:17:17.484
And yeah, I just don't think about that much.
312
00:17:17.604 --> 00:17:17.785
Yeah.
313
00:17:18.485 --> 00:17:21.727
If I usually only look at my sleep score or like it's a score.
314
00:17:21.747 --> 00:17:23.729
It's just how many hours I slept when I know I slept good.
315
00:17:24.249 --> 00:17:26.290
It's like a positive reinforcement, you know?
316
00:17:26.330 --> 00:17:26.911
Yeah, that's fair.
317
00:17:26.931 --> 00:17:27.931
It's going to be a great day.
318
00:17:27.951 --> 00:17:29.493
Yeah.
319
00:17:29.573 --> 00:17:30.213
And I get that.
320
00:17:30.433 --> 00:17:34.879
And like I think there are elements of like the arbitrary that can be positive.
321
00:17:34.899 --> 00:17:38.745
Like even like think about like, you know, an affirmation, right?
322
00:17:38.805 --> 00:17:40.507
Some people might say like an affirmation in the mirror.
323
00:17:40.527 --> 00:17:45.914
They have like motivational sticky notes or, you know, like like I have one next to my desk, like work hard, be good to people.
324
00:17:45.934 --> 00:17:47.437
That's kind of like a personal mantra for me.
325
00:17:47.837 --> 00:17:53.061
That's a positive outside influence on me, but it's not, it is not a made up score.
326
00:17:53.101 --> 00:17:54.702
Like that's just more of a theory.
327
00:17:54.722 --> 00:17:55.562
That's an idea.
328
00:17:55.862 --> 00:17:59.825
It's not, oh, well, Lee was only 70% good to people today.
329
00:17:59.945 --> 00:18:02.227
Oh, and Lee only worked 80% hard today.
330
00:18:02.487 --> 00:18:06.250
Like now I have this arbitrary thing telling me whether I was good or bad.
331
00:18:06.270 --> 00:18:08.991
Yeah, but that's what salaries are in dollars per hour.
332
00:18:10.432 --> 00:18:10.713
Fair.
333
00:18:10.733 --> 00:18:12.974
And how much money you have in the bank.
334
00:18:13.374 --> 00:18:13.695
Yes.
335
00:18:14.055 --> 00:18:15.216
So unpack that.
336
00:18:15.276 --> 00:18:16.877
Like you're optimizing for...
337
00:18:18.212 --> 00:18:18.793
Make you more money.
338
00:18:19.173 --> 00:18:23.998
Well, the reason that you show up every single day and perform the way you do is because you have been rewarded for that in the past.
339
00:18:24.418 --> 00:18:24.778
Correct.
340
00:18:26.140 --> 00:18:27.681
So, well, I'm optimizing to make money.
341
00:18:28.182 --> 00:18:28.402
Right.
342
00:18:28.642 --> 00:18:32.586
And so for someone else that's optimizing for their health, they've been rewarded for in the past when they have a good sleep score.
343
00:18:33.367 --> 00:18:34.047
They feel better.
344
00:18:34.328 --> 00:18:36.250
They get closer to their goals.
345
00:18:37.168 --> 00:18:37.388
Right.
346
00:18:37.508 --> 00:18:42.390
I just think it's like, I think there are these, these elements of something like a sleep score.
347
00:18:42.630 --> 00:18:43.810
And I know we're resuming in on that.
348
00:18:43.910 --> 00:18:46.651
So I don't want to like, that's not what the article was specifically about.
349
00:18:47.011 --> 00:18:49.132
But I feel like I know over optimization.
350
00:18:49.372 --> 00:18:53.073
It's yeah, you're over optimizing for like a number about how you slept the night before.
351
00:18:53.133 --> 00:18:53.473
Yeah.
352
00:18:53.733 --> 00:18:56.054
And so that's the part that like Scott's really drilling it on.
353
00:18:56.074 --> 00:18:57.575
So like, I'll go back to the article here.
354
00:18:57.595 --> 00:18:58.155
I'll pull a quote.
355
00:18:58.595 --> 00:19:03.756
metrics aren't the arbiters of living well, nor is optimization life's end goal.
356
00:19:04.016 --> 00:19:05.277
That's one of the quotes that Scott has.
357
00:19:05.697 --> 00:19:08.858
Metrics aren't the arbiters of living well, nor is optimization life's end goal.
358
00:19:08.898 --> 00:19:20.341
And that really resonated with me because I do think that too many people are focused on certain metrics, the number in the bank account, the car I drive, the make and model of the year, because that's a metric like, oh, I have a 2025.
359
00:19:21.401 --> 00:19:21.541
Right.
360
00:19:21.561 --> 00:19:24.385
Like that is a metric we use societally that that's a new car.
361
00:19:24.766 --> 00:19:25.787
I guess 2026 is now.
362
00:19:26.167 --> 00:19:36.922
And so the question that I thought of was, do you believe there is a difference between living a like productive metric focused life or living just a good life?
363
00:19:38.012 --> 00:19:41.356
Do you have to have metrics to define what a good life is?
364
00:19:41.676 --> 00:19:44.899
Or can you have a good life that is not defined by any metrics whatsoever?
365
00:19:44.979 --> 00:19:47.122
Whether or not you have metrics, you are optimizing for something.
366
00:19:47.662 --> 00:19:47.842
Yes.
367
00:19:47.902 --> 00:19:53.048
And you might not be optimizing for something that is easily quantifiable, like money or sleep score or whatever.
368
00:19:53.068 --> 00:19:53.168
Yeah.
369
00:19:53.588 --> 00:19:58.529
but you might be optimizing for is time with family or good relationships.
370
00:19:58.849 --> 00:20:03.130
And so I would say you are always optimizing for something because there's always a give and take.
371
00:20:03.590 --> 00:20:14.193
It's just a matter of whether or not that thing that you are doing has become a game that everyone's easily quantifiable around dollars and cents, hours in a bed, calories tracked, proteins, fats, and carbs.
372
00:20:14.493 --> 00:20:15.633
Those are things that are easily tracked.
373
00:20:15.653 --> 00:20:19.394
It is much harder to quantify metrics around quality time.
374
00:20:23.435 --> 00:20:51.238
quality time i think we need to step it up like that doesn't happen and so i think somewhat of how he's defining is like going for things that cannot be optimized or sorry should cannot be cannot be quantified that's actually i think what he's actually digging at because everything in life can be quantified besides the things that to some people matter more and those things that he's putting weight on which i think is true it has the validity to it but you could also make up a game for those things
375
00:20:51.978 --> 00:20:54.120
How many hours did you spend with your son?
376
00:20:54.961 --> 00:20:55.981
Does that make you a better father?
377
00:20:56.021 --> 00:20:57.222
Your father scores 40.
378
00:20:57.703 --> 00:20:59.424
Like, that's just a harder game to play.
379
00:20:59.704 --> 00:21:01.506
It's harder to measure than your heart rate.
380
00:21:02.446 --> 00:21:03.768
And how many calories you had yesterday.
381
00:21:03.788 --> 00:21:05.929
But you could also make that a game.
382
00:21:06.189 --> 00:21:10.193
And I think there are niche audiences that are really into certain things that do make it into a game.
383
00:21:10.673 --> 00:21:12.895
Like, how many days have I showed up on a certain platform?
384
00:21:13.215 --> 00:21:14.516
How many miles have I run?
385
00:21:14.536 --> 00:21:17.638
They make everything becomes a metric because they're optimizing for something else.
386
00:21:17.998 --> 00:21:22.441
And I think what he is trying to say is like not everything needs a metric in order to be optimized.
387
00:21:22.581 --> 00:21:25.824
You can optimize your relationship without having a score to it, without having a scoreboard.
388
00:21:26.744 --> 00:21:26.924
Yeah.
389
00:21:26.964 --> 00:21:40.914
And this was another quote that I was going to bring up to a perfect kind of segue into that is he said, often the qualification of modern life makes us play the games we can easily measure rather than the games we deeply value.
390
00:21:40.994 --> 00:21:41.194
Yeah.
391
00:21:41.494 --> 00:21:42.935
And that's effectively what you're getting out.
392
00:21:43.255 --> 00:21:46.457
And I thought, what are the games in business?
393
00:21:46.517 --> 00:21:48.818
Let's zoom out from the personal side, the sleep scores, whatever.
394
00:21:49.358 --> 00:21:53.161
What are the games in business that are easy to measure but maybe not the most important?
395
00:21:53.601 --> 00:22:02.926
Like from your perspective, when you look at business optimization, kind of switching gears a little bit, do you think there are specific metrics that are easy to measure but aren't as nearly as important?
396
00:22:02.986 --> 00:22:04.567
Yeah, number of employees, number of trucks.
397
00:22:05.062 --> 00:22:05.262
Yeah.
398
00:22:05.903 --> 00:22:14.931
And you feel like there is a kind of antithesis to that that you could optimize for outside of number of employees, number of trucks, top line revenue.
399
00:22:15.912 --> 00:22:17.094
Things that are hard to quantify.
400
00:22:17.194 --> 00:22:17.434
Yes.
401
00:22:17.774 --> 00:22:22.539
Like, for example, for example, like this is one that I came up with revenue versus trust.
402
00:22:23.054 --> 00:22:24.034
Yeah, as a culture.
403
00:22:24.294 --> 00:22:24.695
Oh, culture.
404
00:22:24.735 --> 00:22:25.195
OK, great.
405
00:22:25.215 --> 00:22:25.395
Yeah.
406
00:22:25.655 --> 00:22:33.117
And so I think that that is much harder to quantify because if we are in this over optimization culture, there is no trust score, right?
407
00:22:33.137 --> 00:22:41.960
Like you've done business now with hundreds of people and you've seen people's books, you've seen their P&Ls, you've seen their bank statements and you've seen how they interact with their employees.
408
00:22:42.520 --> 00:22:47.501
You probably have an inherent gauge of how much you would trust that person based on those interactions.
409
00:22:47.922 --> 00:22:49.442
But there isn't a public facing.
410
00:22:49.482 --> 00:22:52.283
This person is a six out of 10 trustworthy.
411
00:22:52.403 --> 00:22:52.623
Right.
412
00:22:52.643 --> 00:22:53.683
Do you see what I'm saying?
413
00:22:53.843 --> 00:22:59.485
And so what do you value like from your perspective as a business leader, like in your organization?
414
00:22:59.865 --> 00:23:07.147
Are you valuing like the person who is a peak optimizer more than the person who is like the most trustworthy?
415
00:23:08.003 --> 00:23:08.945
I'm giving you a binary.
416
00:23:08.965 --> 00:23:18.025
I know that's not fair, but like, would you, if you had to pick, do you pick the person that's better optimizing, better at performing, or do you pick the person that is the average performance, but you trust way more?
417
00:23:18.344 --> 00:23:19.945
I don't know, I think they're very commingled.
418
00:23:20.205 --> 00:23:25.787
Because if someone performs very well, it inherently increases my trust that they'll actually deliver on what they said they're going to do.
419
00:23:26.447 --> 00:23:27.927
You can have all the trust in someone on the world.
420
00:23:27.947 --> 00:23:33.409
Like, for example, if I was like, hey, Lee, I trust you a lot, but you can't fly a helicopter.
421
00:23:33.769 --> 00:23:36.690
Does that mean that, like, somehow you're not fit to drive a helicopter?
422
00:23:36.770 --> 00:23:37.611
Yeah, you're not fit.
423
00:23:37.631 --> 00:23:39.231
You do not have the skills.
424
00:23:39.811 --> 00:23:42.592
And so I think those are two very commingled things.
425
00:23:42.832 --> 00:23:47.394
I think there are, like, quantifiable things, and then there are things that are very difficult to quantify.
426
00:23:48.074 --> 00:23:50.314
Um, also known as qualitative things.
427
00:23:50.354 --> 00:23:52.475
And so things like trust, yeah, I can't score that.
428
00:23:53.355 --> 00:23:57.536
Um, but I also need to have relative skills that I can measure.
429
00:23:57.776 --> 00:23:59.736
Like what was your revenue last month?
430
00:23:59.776 --> 00:24:00.956
How many calls did you have?
431
00:24:00.976 --> 00:24:10.698
Like a lot of the things we talk about is numbers based, but they're all, yes, the, the qualitative things of trust, culture, care, empathy.
432
00:24:10.918 --> 00:24:12.459
Those are the things that are harder to measure.
433
00:24:13.099 --> 00:24:14.679
And I think you need to have both.
434
00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:19.601
I think over optimizing for one or the other leads to downfall.
435
00:24:19.621 --> 00:24:22.863
If I only optimize for people I trust, well, then we have a bunch of unskilled people.
436
00:24:23.544 --> 00:24:27.526
If I only optimize for performance, then we have people who don't care about each other and don't work well with each other.
437
00:24:27.926 --> 00:24:28.906
So I think there has to be a balance.
438
00:24:30.137 --> 00:24:37.044
What about this is like literally the deepest, I think, every week is the 30 minutes we talk about this stuff.
439
00:24:37.244 --> 00:24:39.547
Oh, I appreciate you indulging me.
440
00:24:39.567 --> 00:24:42.870
I'm optimizing for getting that side out of you.
441
00:24:43.030 --> 00:24:43.430
Oh, man.
442
00:24:43.631 --> 00:24:48.636
What about like a different example would be like speed to make a decision.
443
00:24:48.856 --> 00:24:53.320
So like there are businesses that optimize for speed, speed of execution.
444
00:24:54.179 --> 00:25:00.021
And you have in the past said that like you've made decisions very quickly and sometimes you have admitted to making decisions too fast.
445
00:25:00.321 --> 00:25:04.582
So you have businesses that optimize for like speed of decision making and execution.
446
00:25:04.802 --> 00:25:11.804
But then you have businesses that optimize for making sure every single decision is as close to 100 percent accurate as possible.
447
00:25:12.144 --> 00:25:13.965
Like where do you see that?
448
00:25:14.965 --> 00:25:24.051
As a business owner, do you think that people tend to move one direction too much, or do you feel that they should be optimizing for one direction more so than the other?
449
00:25:24.071 --> 00:25:25.072
It depends on their goals.
450
00:25:25.372 --> 00:25:25.552
Yeah.
451
00:25:25.752 --> 00:25:29.554
Whoever has equity in that business gets to determine, do we...
452
00:25:30.575 --> 00:25:34.478
Do we put on a pedestal being correct or do we put on a pedestal making progress?
453
00:25:34.999 --> 00:25:40.143
And that's going to likely push them in the direction of either speed or perfection and getting everything right.
454
00:25:40.503 --> 00:25:48.850
And I think the bigger business gets, usually it tends to shift more away from speed because it has more collateral damage when there's so many people involved.
455
00:25:49.310 --> 00:25:51.292
It's harder to turn the Titanic than it is a rowboat.
456
00:25:51.992 --> 00:25:55.315
But you still want to be on the Titanic in the middle of an ocean, not a rowboat.
457
00:25:56.373 --> 00:26:01.755
As long as there's no iceberg around, you want to be in the Titanic.
458
00:26:02.556 --> 00:26:05.357
And so I think, yeah, it comes down to the owner.
459
00:26:05.397 --> 00:26:06.597
The owner has to make that decision.
460
00:26:06.617 --> 00:26:15.201
And there's going to be no matter where you're at in that spectrum, you're going to be called either slow by some or you're going to be you're going to be called overly cautious, optimistic and slow.
461
00:26:15.925 --> 00:26:21.113
you will never be able, like only the person that owns equity can determine where on that gauge we're at.
462
00:26:21.394 --> 00:26:25.821
And for some decisions, you optimize way for one and on other things, you optimize way for the other.
463
00:26:26.081 --> 00:26:29.827
So like Jeff Bezos says, like if it's a one-way door, you would be way cautious.
464
00:26:51.758 --> 00:26:54.959
If you can't come back, you can't reverse the decision, then you slow down.
465
00:26:55.219 --> 00:27:03.301
And whereas if it's like, hey, we can take this back, we can always roll this feature back, we can change this, we can cut this department out, it's not going to make a big deal, then go, go as fast as possible.
466
00:27:03.601 --> 00:27:04.782
So I think it changes all the time.
467
00:27:05.702 --> 00:27:09.043
What about optimization when it comes to employees?
468
00:27:10.247 --> 00:27:15.468
So thinking about it from the perspective of, you know, and Scott very kind of briefly touches on this.
469
00:27:15.488 --> 00:27:16.808
He doesn't directly go this route.
470
00:27:17.468 --> 00:27:19.089
And I don't even think he has a specific claim.
471
00:27:19.329 --> 00:27:23.490
But he touches on, you know, business decisions are made based on measurables.
472
00:27:23.890 --> 00:27:28.111
And then there's almost like this loss of humanity that, oh, it's a business decision.
473
00:27:28.371 --> 00:27:28.571
Right.
474
00:27:28.611 --> 00:27:30.091
Like you said, like we can make a decision.
475
00:27:30.111 --> 00:27:30.611
We can roll it.
476
00:27:30.751 --> 00:27:31.431
We can roll it back.
477
00:27:31.511 --> 00:27:32.792
We can cut that department.
478
00:27:32.852 --> 00:27:33.752
We can move things around.
479
00:27:33.792 --> 00:27:35.452
We could cut that team member.
480
00:27:35.532 --> 00:27:38.073
We could cut out that division, whatever it is.
481
00:27:38.093 --> 00:27:38.993
And that happens all the time.
482
00:27:39.373 --> 00:27:40.193
Like, we can make a decision.
483
00:27:40.353 --> 00:27:48.435
Do you feel that there is a balance that you have found in your businesses to, yes, make educated decisions based on the measurables, right?
484
00:27:48.555 --> 00:27:55.037
Optimizing for these measurables for the performance of the business, but also still keeping the humanity of like, these are real people involved in these decisions.
485
00:27:55.057 --> 00:27:56.417
Like, this will impact real people.
486
00:27:56.577 --> 00:27:57.838
Like, where is that balance for you?
487
00:27:57.978 --> 00:28:01.539
Firing and letting people go is a very different, like, again, it's a completely different topic.
488
00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:01.879
But...
489
00:28:05.120 --> 00:28:13.022
how it affects the business, I have to ask myself, are the metrics in this case outweighing the potential downside effects that I might lose in culture?
490
00:28:14.522 --> 00:28:20.084
If I was put in the place and I've had to do it once, where it's like an unexpected layoff and...
491
00:28:20.884 --> 00:28:31.349
If I'm in the position where I need to make a business decision, to use that term, let's just say dollars and cents versus I know that this is going to hurt the culture of the business, I better have a really good reason.
492
00:28:31.449 --> 00:28:41.555
And I believe that people trust me less if that becomes a constant in my decision making, which is I just constantly just fall to the business side because then what you're saying is like, I don't care about the culture.
493
00:28:42.315 --> 00:28:45.238
And so I would just be very weighted with that decision.
494
00:28:45.258 --> 00:28:51.946
It would be something that would take very slowly if I was ever choosing dollars and cents over if I knew that the culture was negative.
495
00:28:52.026 --> 00:28:57.172
I will also say when you fire people most of the time, it's you reduce payroll and you also increase the culture of the business.
496
00:28:57.192 --> 00:28:57.392
Mm-hmm.
497
00:28:57.672 --> 00:28:58.712
when you make a good firing.
498
00:28:59.132 --> 00:29:07.694
So it's very, very rare in that case where you are making a business decision and you're cutting people and it's gonna negatively impact the business.
499
00:29:07.714 --> 00:29:11.835
Like I would make that, it's negatively impacting the culture, the trust built up.
500
00:29:12.195 --> 00:29:14.015
I would take that with a lot of calculation.
501
00:29:14.115 --> 00:29:15.316
I would rather eat payroll.
502
00:29:15.496 --> 00:29:16.856
Like I'm doing this right now in another department.
503
00:29:17.116 --> 00:29:18.076
I'm eating payroll.
504
00:29:18.136 --> 00:29:27.298
I know that I don't need, but I would rather keep the engagement of the team high and long-term grow into that capacity that's in that department.
505
00:29:27.558 --> 00:29:32.701
Yeah, I think it's an interesting decision to make because I made a decision and you probably won't remember it.
506
00:29:32.721 --> 00:29:38.324
It was months back, but I made a decision that effectively impacted a team member's compensation.
507
00:29:38.644 --> 00:29:41.046
But I was like, here's the data behind why.
508
00:29:41.486 --> 00:29:53.013
And to your point, I guess, yeah, I did have to have that internal dialogue of how negatively will this impact culture, how negatively will impact the affected employee if certain wages, commissions, whatever were changed.
509
00:29:53.653 --> 00:29:56.994
But the numbers support like this is this change should be made.
510
00:29:57.554 --> 00:29:58.795
And I know we don't like using shoulds.
511
00:29:59.035 --> 00:30:06.918
This change needs to be made if the business needs to is going to continue allocating resources appropriately with the resources we have available.
512
00:30:07.518 --> 00:30:11.959
Because we have a finite amount of resources in terms of salespeople and teams and whatever we might be doing.
513
00:30:12.300 --> 00:30:19.102
And so to your point, I guess I never thought that that internal dialogue before I brought you the numbers, before I told you I think this is the direction we should go in.
514
00:30:19.402 --> 00:30:21.943
I had that dialogue of how will this impact the culture?
515
00:30:21.983 --> 00:30:24.485
How will it impact the people involved in this decision?
516
00:30:24.965 --> 00:30:28.147
Even though I know objectively it's the right business decision.
517
00:30:28.827 --> 00:30:29.427
Objectively.
518
00:30:29.707 --> 00:30:33.089
Subjectively, I have to take into account like optimizing for team culture.
519
00:30:33.109 --> 00:30:33.750
Does that make sense?
520
00:30:33.850 --> 00:30:34.010
Yeah.
521
00:30:34.310 --> 00:30:39.353
So I think, do you feel like there's anything that business owners can use?
522
00:30:39.393 --> 00:30:43.715
Are there any tools or questions they can ask themselves when they find themselves at a crossroad like that?
523
00:30:44.056 --> 00:30:51.139
I think realizing that anything you do to your team, regardless of the percentage of the team, is going to affect 100% of your team.
524
00:30:51.459 --> 00:31:01.664
Meaning, this is why I disagree with a lot of the way the layoffs are being done right now with technology, is they're laying off 5% of their team, but what they're doing, they're doing it to cut costs by 5% for payroll, right?
525
00:31:02.625 --> 00:31:11.169
What they're failing to realize is that the other 95% that stay, they just got a 30% haircut on their productivity and buying at the company.
526
00:31:12.068 --> 00:31:14.249
And so I actually feel like it's a net loss in the long run.
527
00:31:14.269 --> 00:31:16.190
In the short term, stock market loves it.
528
00:31:16.430 --> 00:31:19.571
The stock, but you will start losing your best people three, four years from now.
529
00:31:20.071 --> 00:31:24.193
You will have less discretion or effort towards your business because now they've seen how you treat people.
530
00:31:24.453 --> 00:31:30.796
So when they show up to work one day and 5%, all their colleagues are gone, indiscriminately, completely arbitrary, just numbers.
531
00:31:30.976 --> 00:31:33.057
Dude, you guys are, it's a business decision.
532
00:31:33.597 --> 00:31:34.738
What does that do to the rest of the team?
533
00:31:35.258 --> 00:31:38.640
And so that's how I always look at whether it be one team member or a department.
534
00:31:39.061 --> 00:31:42.723
Everyone else's culture gets affected because they see how things are being treated.
535
00:31:42.964 --> 00:31:46.686
And the biggest unlock to any labor is discretionary effort.
536
00:31:47.066 --> 00:31:48.067
Do they think about in the shower?
537
00:31:48.127 --> 00:31:52.550
Do they think about while they're driving to work when they're not clocked in, when they're at dinner, do they have an idea and they write it down their phone?
538
00:31:52.871 --> 00:31:58.295
If I can't unlock that, I got to go buy twice as much labor to be able to get the job done.
539
00:31:59.135 --> 00:32:15.003
And so I think the biggest hack in labor or any sort of required work to be done, whether it be discretionary effort out in the field, like I can run to the truck or I can drive to a gas station that's three miles away versus one mile away.
540
00:32:15.703 --> 00:32:18.485
These are all the little discretionary effort cuts that come in the culture.
541
00:32:18.805 --> 00:32:22.847
And a lot of times it's when they look at the leader, there's evidence that they don't care about the people.
542
00:32:23.367 --> 00:32:26.550
And I think a lot of times we make sense of it because we do have a 5% reduction in payroll.
543
00:32:26.570 --> 00:32:32.794
We do cut a cost, but we forget about the other 95% of people that see that and they stop giving discretionary effort.
544
00:32:33.235 --> 00:32:36.317
And so I have always thought about that as like, okay, I'm making this cut.
545
00:32:36.417 --> 00:32:36.697
Great.
546
00:32:36.737 --> 00:32:38.238
What's that doing to everyone else that stays?
547
00:32:38.458 --> 00:32:43.262
Because if it's not positive, which usually when you're cutting someone is positive to the culture, it actually increases.
548
00:32:43.963 --> 00:32:47.886
I'm reducing payroll, but then you also have the 95% that all of a sudden outperform at 105%.
549
00:32:48.706 --> 00:32:51.169
Like that's usually what happens when you cut bad culture from the business.
550
00:32:51.429 --> 00:32:58.316
But if you don't, like if you're cutting good people that are performing well, but you do it based on business, like we're just cutting indiscriminately.
551
00:32:58.676 --> 00:33:02.180
I think that's such a damage to the long term of the business.
552
00:33:02.200 --> 00:33:07.104
And when someone starts doing that, a business starts doing that, I think it's like the first step of decline over the course of decades.
553
00:33:07.505 --> 00:33:11.449
It can take a long time to show up, but the discretionary effort is lost within the team.
554
00:33:11.749 --> 00:33:14.551
What do business owners optimize for that you respect?
555
00:33:15.171 --> 00:33:16.151
That garners your respect.
556
00:33:16.171 --> 00:33:19.173
Like this business owner is optimizing for X. I respect that.
557
00:33:19.513 --> 00:33:19.854
I don't know.
558
00:33:20.054 --> 00:33:21.434
Everyone's playing their own game.
559
00:33:21.795 --> 00:33:22.195
Long term.
560
00:33:22.415 --> 00:33:22.835
Long term.
561
00:33:23.796 --> 00:33:25.036
Just like focus on long term goals.
562
00:33:25.236 --> 00:33:31.360
Yeah, because if you actually are optimizing for the long term, it'll change the way you operate a team.
563
00:33:31.620 --> 00:33:32.881
It'll change the way you allocate capital.
564
00:33:33.101 --> 00:33:35.842
It'll change the way you communicate with customers.
565
00:33:36.022 --> 00:33:40.265
Every behavior will change if you're just like, is this a five year decision or is this a 50 year decision?
566
00:33:40.805 --> 00:33:43.947
And that's why people hate private equity, because usually when they step in, they're looking at a five-year term.
567
00:33:44.908 --> 00:33:48.470
And so I think I respect anyone that's like, in 50 years, this is important.
568
00:33:48.630 --> 00:33:51.172
Even something that happened last week with the leadership team, remember I said?
569
00:33:52.133 --> 00:33:55.996
It's like in 100 years, no one will care for this business as much as us.
570
00:33:56.036 --> 00:33:59.718
So we need to put things in place that will prevent them from undoing what we're doing right now.
571
00:34:00.519 --> 00:34:04.662
And I think that is the type of behavior that I have admired in other people.
572
00:34:05.540 --> 00:34:05.760
All right.
573
00:34:05.860 --> 00:34:06.701
Any non-financial advice?
574
00:34:06.721 --> 00:34:07.281
Yeah, dude, I do.
575
00:34:07.341 --> 00:34:07.562
I do.
576
00:34:07.582 --> 00:34:07.682
I do.
577
00:34:07.702 --> 00:34:08.122
Oh, let's go.
578
00:34:08.222 --> 00:34:08.522
All right.
579
00:34:08.622 --> 00:34:11.064
So Jocko just came out with the brand new.
580
00:34:11.765 --> 00:34:12.986
These are not new flavors.
581
00:34:13.006 --> 00:34:13.386
Okay.
582
00:34:13.586 --> 00:34:15.728
But they changed the way that they do their carbonation.
583
00:34:15.768 --> 00:34:17.129
It's now reverse osmosis.
584
00:34:17.249 --> 00:34:17.489
Okay.
585
00:34:17.930 --> 00:34:19.631
And they changed their sweetener profile a little bit.
586
00:34:19.651 --> 00:34:22.653
It's a little monk fruit, but it is significantly better.
587
00:34:22.973 --> 00:34:25.115
Not only is it the packaging, by the way, here.
588
00:34:25.255 --> 00:34:28.237
So editors before packaging, after packaging.
589
00:34:28.418 --> 00:34:28.778
See that?
590
00:34:29.378 --> 00:34:29.859
Much better.
591
00:34:29.919 --> 00:34:31.740
So anyways, I highly recommend.
592
00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:32.240
Go check it out.
593
00:34:32.421 --> 00:34:32.761
Perfect.
594
00:34:32.821 --> 00:34:33.882
Can I steal one from your fridge?
595
00:34:34.483 --> 00:34:37.028
Dude, this one's already earmarked for Nick.
596
00:34:37.048 --> 00:34:38.009
I got one more.
597
00:34:38.050 --> 00:34:38.470
Oh, that's fine.
598
00:34:38.510 --> 00:34:39.052
I'll take it.
599
00:34:39.092 --> 00:34:40.013
I'll go in on Monday.
600
00:34:40.094 --> 00:34:40.354
That's fine.
601
00:34:40.394 --> 00:34:40.975
I promise.
602
00:34:41.276 --> 00:34:41.536
Okay.
603
00:34:41.556 --> 00:34:45.404
My not financial advice directly from Scott's article is just enjoy every sandwich.
604
00:34:46.083 --> 00:35:12.177
every sandwich yeah i haven't had a sandwich in so long you have to yeah you have to read the article you have to read the article oh really just enjoy every sandwich okay but it's yours i'm guessing this is not food no it is oh it is but it's basically like don't worry about everything like just enjoy the small things stop optimizing for everything enjoy every jocko and jaco just not yours i'll get you on monday i'm fine nick's meeting before he was like hey can i have that i'm like yeah i gotta do it for non-management advice and then i'll give it to you all right i'll take it down to him like and subscribe
